Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[TonyTheTiger]

Am I the only one who wants to see Goku hit Superman with a giant cellophane 悟 at some point during the fight?

[dbzfan7]

Umm dude the Super Hedgehogs were traveling across the past, present, and future making them nigh Omnipresent with time. They did not sever his tie to the Megaverse. Its a non canon power up my point is still stands =/. I dont pick and choose what does and doesnt work I'm just telling you what really is and isnt part of the continuity. Well apparently the Segaverse works in terms of killing one timeline doesnt affect the other like DBZ does. Its stated that Solaris wiped out all existence across time. The Super Hedgehogs are Nigh Omnipotent just like Solaris thats how they weren't defeated by him. As to how all the protagonist and Eggman survived, I have no idea. Clearly Sega had there heads up there ass and decided to let them live for whatever reason. PIS I tell you. Thats why Sonic 06's story sucks.

Your picking and choosing for a game with different logic. The game isn't the comics. Also no sega timeline doesn't work like dbz because blowing out Solaris's candle undid Sonic 06. If they can undo Solaris and the events of 06, Solaris can easily wipe the Hedgehogs out. He has several powers that would have ended them. He could have outright warped them out of reality. he could warp their anatomy. He can destroy them in a single attack since he can easily harm them. In game every hit reduces the ring count severely, meaning he can harm them. Game logic is different then comic logic. I follow logic that the game outright says over pick and choosing what works and doesn't when the game has it's own logic. Just like how Super Sonic isn't invincible in unleashed when he has a health bar. Guess he ain't invincible no more now.

Game logic is different then comic logic. Games have their own set of rules. Rationalizing game rules is like rationalizing Ren and Stimpy and Bugs Bunny. They follow a whole other set of rules.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm dude the Super Hedgehogs were traveling across the past, present, and future making them nigh Omnipresent with time. They did not sever his tie to the Megaverse. Its a non canon power up my point is still stands =/. I dont pick and choose what does and doesnt work I'm just telling you what really is and isnt part of the continuity. Well apparently the Segaverse works in terms of killing one timeline doesnt affect the other like DBZ does. Its stated that Solaris wiped out all existence across time. The Super Hedgehogs are Nigh Omnipotent just like Solaris thats how they weren't defeated by him. As to how all the protagonist and Eggman survived, I have no idea. Clearly Sega had there heads up there ass and decided to let them live for whatever reason. PIS I tell you. Thats why Sonic 06's story sucks.

Your picking and choosing for a game with different logic. The game isn't the comics. Also no sega timeline doesn't work like dbz because blowing out Solaris's candle undid Sonic 06. If they can undo Solaris and the events of 06, Solaris can easily wipe the Hedgehogs out. He has several powers that would have ended them. He could have outright warped them out of reality. he could warp their anatomy. He can destroy them in a single attack since he can easily harm them. In game every hit reduces the ring count severely, meaning he can harm them. Game logic is different then comic logic. I follow logic that the game outright says over pick and choosing what works and doesn't when the game has it's own logic. Just like how Super Sonic isn't invincible in unleashed when he has a health bar.

Sonic 06 is very inconsistent so I have no idea how that works. For example Elise blows out the white flame erasing Solaris. Sonic fixes the future yet Silver's future is still desolate and the Duke is still dead. Solaris is still stated to be a Nigh Omnipotent, Omnipresent God. Again if Solaris could have done that this is still Sonic 06 the good guys always win regardless of his stated power. The chaos force prevents such anatomy alteration. Enerjak has been shown to be able to alter anatomy yet he cant do it to Super Sonic. Like I said previously Super Sonic's power is determined by the foe he is fighting. Tikal's prayer solves any inconsistencies in power with the super forms between games in the continuity. Tikal's prayer states that the chaos emeralds turn thoughts into power meaning Super Sonic is as strong as he needs to be to win. Dude rings arent even power rings in the game continuity. plain rings maintaining a super form? I dont think so =/. Furthermore that doesnt explain Sonic Advanced. Rings are just a game mechanic designed to make the final bosses actually difficult. Game continuity aside though Vegeta is a manga character so he should be pit against the comic variant of Shadow.

[dbzfan7]

Umm dude the Super Hedgehogs were traveling across the past, present, and future making them nigh Omnipresent with time. They did not sever his tie to the Megaverse. Its a non canon power up my point is still stands =/. I dont pick and choose what does and doesnt work I'm just telling you what really is and isnt part of the continuity. Well apparently the Segaverse works in terms of killing one timeline doesnt affect the other like DBZ does. Its stated that Solaris wiped out all existence across time. The Super Hedgehogs are Nigh Omnipotent just like Solaris thats how they weren't defeated by him. As to how all the protagonist and Eggman survived, I have no idea. Clearly Sega had there heads up there ass and decided to let them live for whatever reason. PIS I tell you. Thats why Sonic 06's story sucks.

Your picking and choosing for a game with different logic. The game isn't the comics. Also no sega timeline doesn't work like dbz because blowing out Solaris's candle undid Sonic 06. If they can undo Solaris and the events of 06, Solaris can easily wipe the Hedgehogs out. He has several powers that would have ended them. He could have outright warped them out of reality. he could warp their anatomy. He can destroy them in a single attack since he can easily harm them. In game every hit reduces the ring count severely, meaning he can harm them. Game logic is different then comic logic. I follow logic that the game outright says over pick and choosing what works and doesn't when the game has it's own logic. Just like how Super Sonic isn't invincible in unleashed when he has a health bar.

Sonic 06 is very inconsistent so I have no idea how that works. For example Elise blows out the white flame erasing Solaris. Sonic fixes the future yet Silver's future is still desolate and the Duke is still dead. Solaris is still stated to be a Nigh Omnipotent, Omnipresent God. Again if Solaris could have done that this is still Sonic 06 the good guys always win regardless of his stated power. The chaos force prevents such anatomy alteration. Enerjak has been shown to be able to alter anatomy yet he cant do it to Super Sonic. Like I said previously Super Sonic's power is determined by the foe he is fighting. Tikal's prayer solves any inconsistencies in power with the super forms between games in the continuity. Tikal's prayer states that the chaos emeralds turn thoughts into power meaning Super Sonic is as strong as he needs to be to win. Dude rings arent even power rings in the game continuity. plain rings maintaining a super form? I dont think so =/. Furthermore that doesnt explain Sonic Advanced. Rings are just a game mechanic designed to make the final bosses actually difficult.

That's why it's called game logic. Just like Tikals prayer can also be considered the same thing as what Eggman said about Solaris considering how Super Sonic changes from time to time. That is what is picking and choosing rules is. It's a game, you can't rationalize it. Your using a comic feat for game sonic. They are separated by two different logic's. I take face value for games since it's there job to tell you the rules at face value. You are picking and choosing instead of seeing the game can't be explained since it's a game. Rings power a super form in games, that's how it works, the game says so. I don't question it because that is how it works. You need to stop using comic relations and rationalizing the rules of games.

The game has it's rules, it's as simple as that. What part of game logic don't you understand?

[dario03]

If anything, in DB its more lethal, thats the whole point. DBZ has shown impressive destructive force with ki attacks but their physical strength isn't shown to be all that high but yet they hurt each other with it. So if Goku can be hurt by a guy that can barely lift a building what will happen to him when a guy that can move planets hits him with a unrestricted physical punch?

You do realize they put Ki behind there punches right? Trunks vs Goku comes to mind when demonstrating putting Ki behind physical blows.

Are you reading what I post? Thats the exact example that VegettoEX used that I was responding to.

I would assume that folks are referring to physical attacks being these "busting" (ugh, that phrase is driving me nuts...!) attacks, rather than ki-based attacks, and specifically projectiles.

That being said, we've seen Goku infuse his finger with ki when he was blocking Trunks' sword swings right after their mutual arrivals, so there's absolutely nothing out of the question in terms of Goku infusing his fist with some amount of ki to enhance that type of attack.

I think a lot of it comes down to durability. How well could Goku handle a physical hit from a guy like Superman especially the stronger versions? Perhaps Goku does enhance his physical attacks with ki and maybe even his defense with ki and so do his opponents. But Goku is hurt by those attacks and those physical attacks aren't usually breaking up planets (I recall the kai planet getting wrecked but wasn't that more from the ki and only shown as local damage?) and no one in Dragonball has ever shown physical strength thats even close to some of the stuff Superman has done. Best show of physical strength I can remember from DB was Goku and Vegeta holding up a skyscraper but that was end of GT with them being SS4 and they struggled to do it. And I would imagine a guy that can travel so fast that he flys through whole universes and has to be told to stop by God (basically) and can move multiple planets across the universe is probably capable of hitting pretty hard. I don't know how big those mulitple planets were or how big that building was but the Earth is something like 20,000,000,000,000,000x the weight of a large skyscraper like the empire state building so unless there is a better show of physical strength Goku is way out classed there.

Superman has been shown to live through huge explosions and powerful energy attacks and stuff that could compare to the ki attacks of DB(Z/GT) but has Goku shown he can handle the physical power of Superman? Even if Superman for some reason can't hit as powerful as he can lift theres still the option of crushing or ripping Goku apart if he gets a hold of him (which I think he could).

So even with putting ki into the physical attacks or lifts they haven't shown anything close to Superman level of physical strength. The pure ki attacks have been shown to do massive damage and Goku can handle those about as well as he handles physical attacks which haven't been shown to do any where near as much damage as the pure ki attacks. Basically I would compare it to how Superman can take magic lightning attacks better than a normal person but is no where near as invulnerable to them as he is non magical attacks.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's why it's called game logic. Just like Tikals prayer can also be considered the same thing as what Eggman said about Solaris considering how Super Sonic changes from time to time. That is what is picking and choosing rules is. It's a game, you can't rationalize it. Your using a comic feat for game sonic. They are separated by two different logic's. I take face value for games since it's there job to tell you the rules at face value. You are picking and choosing instead of seeing the game can't be explained since it's a game. Rings power a super form in games, that's how it works, the game says so. I don't question it because that is how it works. You need to stop using comic relations and rationalizing the rules of games.

The game has it's rules, it's as simple as that. What part of game logic don't you understand?

I'm not using Comic rules I'm using common sense. You see this is the thing you cant rationalize the game but you can rationalize the continuity of said game. In the continuity Sonic beat a Nigh Omnipotent, Omnipresent God. Common sense will tell you a Nigh Omnipotent God wont have some weak spot. Again Super forms are as strong as they need to be to win. Super Shadow would have killed Vegeta with relative ease.

[dbzfan7]

That's why it's called game logic. Just like Tikals prayer can also be considered the same thing as what Eggman said about Solaris considering how Super Sonic changes from time to time. That is what is picking and choosing rules is. It's a game, you can't rationalize it. Your using a comic feat for game sonic. They are separated by two different logic's. I take face value for games since it's there job to tell you the rules at face value. You are picking and choosing instead of seeing the game can't be explained since it's a game. Rings power a super form in games, that's how it works, the game says so. I don't question it because that is how it works. You need to stop using comic relations and rationalizing the rules of games.

The game has it's rules, it's as simple as that. What part of game logic don't you understand?

I'm not using Comic rules I'm using common sense. You see this is the thing you cant rationalize the game but you can rationalize the continuity of said game. In the continuity Sonic beat a Nigh Omnipotent, Omnipresent God. Common sense will tell you a Nigh Omnipotent God wont have some weak spot. Again Super forms are as strong as they need to be to win. Super Shadow would have killed Vegeta with relative ease.

Your using random sense over game rules. I will take the rules of a game over a fan who can't accept the game rules made it that way. Why not rationalize how a Hedgehog talks next, how about how Eggman can build all this junk in a short amount of time. Why not rationalize bugs bunny next. It's all game logic. I go by what the characters say, do, think. You go by rationalizing what isn't there. Not everything follows what normally applies. I don't see how you can argue on sense that goes against what the games show. I repeat it's Game logic. THERE IS NO SIDE EXPLANATIONS OF SOLARIS IS THIS, SONIC CAN THAT. Your explanations are cancelled out by what is established by the game. The game dictates what is and what isn't, not your random rationalizing that would make sense if it were for a movie, comic, ova. But your going against a game that already tells everything face value.

I'm sick of arguing on the pretense of logic that can't apply to the game since the game already said it's logic. The Super Dimensional being has a weak point, so what, it's established in the game, that's it. Normally your logic would make sense except for the flaw that your rationalizing what the game already set the rules on.

In other words the game has spoken, all your logic is meaningless. If the game says Sonic is born from ducks, He is born from ducks. The game dictates law not you.

[TheMightyOzaru]

If anything, in DB its more lethal, thats the whole point. DBZ has shown impressive destructive force with ki attacks but their physical strength isn't shown to be all that high but yet they hurt each other with it. So if Goku can be hurt by a guy that can barely lift a building what will happen to him when a guy that can move planets hits him with a unrestricted physical punch?

You do realize they put Ki behind there punches right? Trunks vs Goku comes to mind when demonstrating putting Ki behind physical blows.

Are you reading what I post? Thats the exact example that VegettoEX used that I was responding to.

I would assume that folks are referring to physical attacks being these "busting" (ugh, that phrase is driving me nuts...!) attacks, rather than ki-based attacks, and specifically projectiles.

That being said, we've seen Goku infuse his finger with ki when he was blocking Trunks' sword swings right after their mutual arrivals, so there's absolutely nothing out of the question in terms of Goku infusing his fist with some amount of ki to enhance that type of attack.

I think a lot of it comes down to durability. How well could Goku handle a physical hit from a guy like Superman especially the stronger versions? Perhaps Goku does enhance his physical attacks with ki and maybe even his defense with ki and so do his opponents. But Goku is hurt by those attacks and those physical attacks aren't usually breaking up planets (I recall the kai planet getting wrecked but wasn't that more from the ki and only shown as local damage?) and no one in Dragonball has ever shown physical strength thats even close to some of the stuff Superman has done. Best show of physical strength I can remember from DB was Goku and Vegeta holding up a skyscraper but that was end of GT with them being SS4 and they struggled to do it. And I would imagine a guy that can travel so fast that he flys through whole universes and has to be told to stop by God (basically) and can move multiple planets across the universe is probably capable of hitting pretty hard. I don't know how big those mulitple planets were or how big that building was but the Earth is something like 20,000,000,000,000,000x the weight of a large skyscraper like the empire state building so unless there is a better show of physical strength Goku is way out classed there.

Superman has been shown to live through huge explosions and powerful energy attacks and stuff that could compare to the ki attacks of DB(Z/GT) but has Goku shown he can handle the physical power of Superman? Even if Superman for some reason can't hit as powerful as he can lift theres still the option of crushing or ripping Goku apart if he gets a hold of him (which I think he could).

So even with putting ki into the physical attacks or lifts they haven't shown anything close to Superman level of physical strength. The pure ki attacks have been shown to do massive damage and Goku can handle those about as well as he handles physical attacks which haven't been shown to do any where near as much damage as the pure ki attacks. Basically I would compare it to how Superman can take magic lightning attacks better than a normal person but is no where near as invulnerable to them as he is non magical attacks.

Are you not reading what I post? Ki is force. DBZ characters have taken planet busting force head on in just the Saiyan Saga. There endurance through Ki is enough to stop Superman's physical attacks. What does the physical strength of Goku have to do with anything? Its clear that Goku is going to use Ki to hurt Superman. The reason physical blows dont look impressive is because Ki attacks are designed to destroy planets. Z characters cant just punch the ground and hope the planet blows up because the Ki behind there punches is condensed.

[VegettoEX]

You're all using the wrong your.

That takes care of that.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's why it's called game logic. Just like Tikals prayer can also be considered the same thing as what Eggman said about Solaris considering how Super Sonic changes from time to time. That is what is picking and choosing rules is. It's a game, you can't rationalize it. Your using a comic feat for game sonic. They are separated by two different logic's. I take face value for games since it's there job to tell you the rules at face value. You are picking and choosing instead of seeing the game can't be explained since it's a game. Rings power a super form in games, that's how it works, the game says so. I don't question it because that is how it works. You need to stop using comic relations and rationalizing the rules of games.

The game has it's rules, it's as simple as that. What part of game logic don't you understand?

I'm not using Comic rules I'm using common sense. You see this is the thing you cant rationalize the game but you can rationalize the continuity of said game. In the continuity Sonic beat a Nigh Omnipotent, Omnipresent God. Common sense will tell you a Nigh Omnipotent God wont have some weak spot. Again Super forms are as strong as they need to be to win. Super Shadow would have killed Vegeta with relative ease.

Your using random sense over game rules. I will take the rules of a game over a fan who can't accept the game rules made it that way. Why not rationalize how a Hedgehog talks next, how about how Eggman can build all this junk in a short amount of time. Why not rationalize bugs bunny next. It's all game logic. I go by what the characters say, do, think. You go by rationalizing what isn't there. Not everything follows what normally applies. I don't see how you can argue on sense that goes against what the games show. I repeat it's Game logic. THERE IS NO SIDE EXPLANATIONS OF SOLARIS IS THIS, SONIC CAN THAT. Your explanations are cancelled out by what is established by the game. The game dictates what is and what isn't, not your random rationalizing that would make sense if it were for a movie, comic, ova. But your going against a game that already tells everything face value.

I'm sick of arguing on the pretense of logic that can't apply to the game since the game already said it's logic. The Super Dimensional being has a weak point, so what, it's established in the game, that's it. Normally your logic would make sense except for the flaw that your rationalizing what the game already set the rules on.

Game rules and continuity are 2 separate things dude =/. I suggest you learn a thing or 2 about game continuity.

[dbzfan7]

Game rules and continuity are 2 separate things dude =/. I suggest you learn a thing or 2 about game continuity.

I suggest you learn what a game establishes, is what happens. Game rules write continuity. Not what you want it to be. I see you won't listen so I'm done.

[VegettoEX]

That's enough with the backhanded comments. Gotta knock off these "dude, use logic" and "man, it's called continuity" and "it's just common sense" insanities. You're proving the exact same thing we're trying to say this community won't do.

Either converse politely with your fellow fans, or find another community to have those types of conversations within.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Game rules and continuity are 2 separate things dude =/. I suggest you learn a thing or 2 about game continuity.

I suggest you learn what a game establishes, is what happens. Game rules write continuity. Not what you want it to be. I see you won't listen so I'm done.

Oh so level design in Sonic is canon? Yeah because that makes sense. The structure makes it impossible for the humans to get around. What happens in game doesnt decide the canon especially since the player more or less decides what happens. Ocarina of Time the game and manga come to mind for my example. the Manga decides what really happened in the game. In fact I have a perfect example of how the game rules and game continuity are 2 different things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_uxxFJTvE
According to this Sonic is slower than sound based on in game events. Well official statements and canon state otherwise so 2 different things.

[VegettoEX]

I'm officially tossing out warnings against accounts. Knock it off.

[Insertclevername]

Well, er, about the video... How do you think the " Death Battle" will be animated? Sprites? or Polygonal models like how they did the Link vs. Cloud video? I think there are some really good looking sprites out there (like in Hyper Dimension ) for Gokuu and his moves, not sure about Superman though.

[dario03]

Are you not reading what I post? Ki is force. DBZ characters have taken planet busting force head on in just the Saiyan Saga. There endurance through Ki is enough to stop Superman's physical attacks. What does the physical strength of Goku have to do with anything? Its clear that Goku is going to use Ki to hurt Superman. The reason physical blows dont look impressive is because Ki attacks are designed to destroy planets. Z characters cant just punch the ground and hope the planet blows up because the Ki behind there punches is condensed.

So we're just assuming that Goku can transfer ki into physical punches with no conversion loss even though they've never really shown physical attacks that powerful and and have shown to be physically weak in lifting? That doesn't really make sense and that still doesn't explain how Superman can't just crush or rip Goku apart since thats pure push/pull strength.

If this was a RPG with 100 being the max it would look something like (numbers just for show not claiming them to be exact)
Goku
physical offense 10
physical defense 10
energy offense 100
energy defense 100

Superman
Physical offense 100
physical defense 100
energy offense (I don't know but less than Goku)
energy defense 100

[TheMightyOzaru]

Are you not reading what I post? Ki is force. DBZ characters have taken planet busting force head on in just the Saiyan Saga. There endurance through Ki is enough to stop Superman's physical attacks. What does the physical strength of Goku have to do with anything? Its clear that Goku is going to use Ki to hurt Superman. The reason physical blows dont look impressive is because Ki attacks are designed to destroy planets. Z characters cant just punch the ground and hope the planet blows up because the Ki behind there punches is condensed.

So we're just assuming that Goku can transfer ki into physical punches with no conversion loss even though they've never really shown physical attacks that powerful and and have shown to be physically weak in lifting? That doesn't really make sense and that still doesn't explain how Superman can't just crush or rip Goku apart since thats pure push/pull strength.

If this was a RPG with 100 being the max it would look something like (numbers just for show not claiming them to be exact)
Goku
physical offense 10
physical defense 10
energy offense 100
energy defense 100

Superman
Physical offense 100
physical defense 100
energy offense (I don't know but less than Goku)
energy defense 100

Lifting something and punching something are 2 different physical feats. Goku can break said building but can he lift it? No. See the difference? Goku has an obscene amount of energy. He can condense energy into his punches and still have plenty left. Physical endurance comes in the form of Ki. He uses Ki to defend against physical and energy blows all the time.

[dario03]

Are you not reading what I post? Ki is force. DBZ characters have taken planet busting force head on in just the Saiyan Saga. There endurance through Ki is enough to stop Superman's physical attacks. What does the physical strength of Goku have to do with anything? Its clear that Goku is going to use Ki to hurt Superman. The reason physical blows dont look impressive is because Ki attacks are designed to destroy planets. Z characters cant just punch the ground and hope the planet blows up because the Ki behind there punches is condensed.

So we're just assuming that Goku can transfer ki into physical punches with no conversion loss even though they've never really shown physical attacks that powerful and and have shown to be physically weak in lifting? That doesn't really make sense and that still doesn't explain how Superman can't just crush or rip Goku apart since thats pure push/pull strength.

If this was a RPG with 100 being the max it would look something like (numbers just for show not claiming them to be exact)
Goku
physical offense 10
physical defense 10
energy offense 100
energy defense 100

Superman
Physical offense 100
physical defense 100
energy offense (I don't know but less than Goku)
energy defense 100

Lifting something and punching something are 2 different physical feats. Goku can break said building but can he lift it? No. See the difference? Goku has an obscene amount of energy. He can condense energy into his punches and still have plenty left. Physical endurance comes in the form of Ki. He uses Ki to defend against physical and energy blows all the time.

2 different things that are related but ignoring that for now. How would Goku stop Superman from crushing or ripping him apart?

[TheMightyOzaru]

2 different things that are related but ignoring that for now. How would Goku stop Superman from crushing or ripping him apart?

Ki. Goku has shown he is capable of putting Ki up as a defense.

[dario03]

2 different things that are related but ignoring that for now. How would Goku stop Superman from crushing or ripping him apart?

Ki. Goku has shown he is capable of putting Ki up as a defense.

It took him and Vegeta at SS4 to hold up that building. The amount of force that building would have been putting on them is nothing compared to the force that Superman could apply.