Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.
Impossible- the Daizen says they didn't become stronger than Vegeta until after training - Hirito can't read or just doesn't care. He is wrong, you are wrong.
Hitiro wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.
Exactly, if Base Goku was up against Fat Boo he wouldn't escape alive if he didn't have instant transmission. He would definitely die. The same goes for Vegeta and Gohan. Gotenks made it back to the lookout after having a beating by Fat Boo. Base Gotenks > Base Saiyans. Fact.
You don't know the details of the fight - it's not a fact, it's a poorly thought out opinion from some nobody on an internet forum. You berated me for months since I've been here for using "Scanslations" because they aren't accurate, and yet here you are making up information that isn't supported in any media. It's bullshit.
Hitiro wrote:
Amuro Ray wrote:I'm already fed up with you and the others - post up statements saying exactly this, or you're wrong, that is all there is too it. I do have statement of Piccolo wanting to test Gotenks speed; obviously you don't need to test someone if you're absolutely sure of their capabilities, right? And no - if Gotenks was on or above Vegeta's level, that would make the guidebook wrong - so no matter what, Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta. Case closed.
Again, I'm not saying completely that Gotenks needs to be on Vegeta's level, but Piccolo would not hesitate to say he is not powerful enough to defeat Fat Boo if he wasn't at least close. It is my opinion that Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. If you want to believe that he is under then Gotenks still needs to be at a decent level between SSJ2 Gohan and SSJ2 Vegeta for Piccolo to even entertain the idea of using Gotenks. And also:
Manga > Guidebooks
You can't just go "Well it says so in the guidebooks, so the manga must be wrong. Because I want to believe Goku > everyone else." The manga is the original source so I can't believe you would even say the guidebooks are right and the manga is wrong.
Pathetic. The guidebooks compliment the Manga- who are YOU to choose what we accept as fact and what not to? Just because I am handing you your ass in an argument with your own facts and data, doesn't give you a right to ignore proof when it doesn't support your agenda. I expected better.
Yes, Goku is saying they'd be both alive so they can fight. Does Goku say together? No, he doesn't. You really need to learn to read what I'm saying. Just because Goku is saying they can both fight doesn't mean they will both fight Boo together.
Once more - because I HATE repeating myself. Goku asked if the boys could fight, be it together at the same time, or separately, I don't care. But it's STATED that they would have a turn fighting Buu - which doesn't make sense to have a weaker fighter fight, when we KNOW Gohan is stronger.
Last edited by Amuro Ray on Fri May 03, 2013 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.
Impossible- the Daizen says they didn't become stronger than Vegeta until after training - Hirito can't read or just doesn't care. He is wrong, you are wrong.
Really? Does the Daizenshuu state that specifically? Probably not. I'd like to see the exact statement. Furthermore stronger is as vague as it gets.
EDIT: The Daizenshuu states that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. Goku would fall here, furthermore, stronger than what form in what form? This statement is incredibly vague. All we know is Gotenks is stated to be stronger than Vegeta and the others and therefore Gotenks IS stronger than Goku.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Fri May 03, 2013 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.
Impossible- the Daizen says they didn't become stronger than Vegeta until after training - Hirito can't read or just doesn't care. He is wrong, you are wrong.
Really? Does the Daizenshuu state that specifically? Probably not. I'd like to see the exact statement. Furthermore stronger is as vague as it gets.
LOL, is that so - why don't you show me other statements made by the guide book on the topic of strength in particular, which can be interpreted in a different manner. Until then, well take the statement in a literal sense.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.
Exactly. Even if you low ball Gotenks to that level, that still puts Gotenks ahead.
Since set multipliers are established. SSJ= 50x base, SSj2= 2x SSJ and SSJ3= 4x SSJ2. That means the base state is multiplied by these numbers.
If Goku were stronger then Gotenks as SSJ3, then Goku would be above SSJ Gotenks as an SSJ. If SSJ Gotenks was weaker then SSJ Goku, then Goku would never have Gotenks fight Boo period. It took SSJ3 Goku to fight Fat Boo. Going by the official multipliers and Goku's logic, SSJ3 Gotenks can't be weaker then SSJ3 Goku or Goku's whole "If the boys fuse they'll definitely win" is completely wrong since Goku knew the boys were only capable of SSJ. So if the above were true, I guess Goku is secretly hates Goten and Trunks and wants them to die. And that is totally what Goku's like.
In short going by multipliers, if SSJ Gotenks is below SSJ Goku's level, why would Goku bother with Gotenks at all?
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Besides, as it's been pointed out several, several times, Gotenks' Ssj form could be well above Ssj2 Vegeta's battle power before the boys enter the Room of Spirit and Time, and the Daizenshuu not be wrong. If the Daizenshuu entry had labeled specific forms (that Ssj3 Gotenks was what surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta) it'd be one thing, but all the entry says is that as a result of their training, Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. The fact that no forms are mentioned actually supports that it was Gotenks surpassing Vegeta in every way, that Gotenks in his weakest form managed to surpass Vegeta and his strongest form.
Besides, as it's been pointed out, why would Goku, with intimate knowledge of how powerful Gotenks should be as a Super Saiya-jin, and Piccolo, who sees full well how powerful Ssj Gotenks is, both entertain the idea that Ssj Gotenks can beat Fat Buu if he, as a Super Saiya-jin, is weaker than Ssj2 Vegeta.
Amuro Ray wrote:Pathetic. The guidebooks compliment the Manga- who are YOU to choose what we accept as fact and what not to? Just because I am handing you your ass in an argument with your own facts and data, doesn't give you a right to ignore proof when it doesn't support your agenda. I expected better.
And yet you said in another thread that you'll ignore the SSJ multipliers from the guidebook because another person used them to put Gotenks > Goku. Good job, lol.
If you were handing my ass to me in this argument then you wouldn't be ignoring perfectly legitimate responses because you have no counter argument to them. Every time I read your posts you deliberately avoid certain stuff I've said because you know you are wrong.
Last edited by Hitiro on Fri May 03, 2013 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Darkprince410 wrote:Besides, as it's been pointed out, why would Goku, with intimate knowledge of how powerful Gotenks should be as a Super Saiya-jin, and Piccolo, who sees full well how powerful Ssj Gotenks is, both entertain the idea that Ssj Gotenks can beat Fat Buu if he, as a Super Saiya-jin, is weaker than Ssj2 Vegeta.
If SSJ3 Goku were above SSJ3 Gotenks, then SSJ Goku is above SSJ Gotenks. If Gotenks were that weak, he would not be considered. Goku would also need to get his brain checked as well if he thought sending boys to fight for him who aren't stronger then his SSJ form was a good idea.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.
Exactly. Even if you low ball Gotenks to that level, that still puts Gotenks ahead.
Since set multipliers are established. SSJ= 50x base, SSj2= 2x SSJ and SSJ3= 4x SSJ2. That means the base state is multiplied by these numbers.
If Goku were stronger then Gotenks as SSJ3, then Goku would be above SSJ Gotenks as an SSJ. If SSJ Gotenks was weaker then SSJ Goku, then Goku would never have Gotenks fight Boo period. It took SSJ3 Goku to fight Fat Boo. Going by the official multipliers and Goku's logic, SSJ3 Gotenks can't be weaker then SSJ3 Goku or Goku's whole "If the boys fuse they'll definitely win" is completely wrong since Goku knew the boys were only capable of SSJ. So if the above were true, I guess Goku is secretly hates Goten and Trunks and wants them to die. And that is totally what Goku's like.
In short going by multipliers, if SSJ Gotenks is below SSJ Goku's level, why would Goku bother with Gotenks at all?
Didn't Kaboom state that you should assume that because something was a guess, it's automatically correct - all we know for sure is that Gotenks is weaker than vegeta until after the training? No matter what theory you want to conjure, it cannot contradict that and be correct.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:Besides, as it's been pointed out, why would Goku, with intimate knowledge of how powerful Gotenks should be as a Super Saiya-jin, and Piccolo, who sees full well how powerful Ssj Gotenks is, both entertain the idea that Ssj Gotenks can beat Fat Buu if he, as a Super Saiya-jin, is weaker than Ssj2 Vegeta.
If SSJ3 Goku were above SSJ3 Gotenks, then SSJ Goku is above SSJ Gotenks. If Gotenks were that weak, he would not be considered. Goku would also need to get his brain checked as well if he thought sending boys to fight for him who aren't stronger then his SSJ form was a good idea.
Goku wasn't there to send the boys anyhow, so how can you blame him?
And there is no multipliers given for Fusion - we just know (and see) it makes people stronger. It's a gamble, one that was wrong on Goku's part.
Last edited by Amuro Ray on Fri May 03, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Amuro Ray wrote:Didn't Kaboom state that you should assume that because something was a guess, it's automatically correct - all we know for sure is that Gotenks is weaker than vegeta until after the training? No matter what theory you want to conjure, it cannot contradict that and be correct.
I'll ask right now, do you honestly believe SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ Goku? If so explain why he would follow through with a plan that has Gotenks who can't match up to Goku's SSJ fight Boo when SSJ2 Goku can't fight Boo, and SSJ3 tier characters can only fight Boo.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri May 03, 2013 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Amuro Ray wrote:Didn't Kaboom state that you should assume that because something was a guess, it's automatically correct - all we know for sure is that Gotenks is weaker than vegeta until after the training? No matter what theory you want to conjure, it cannot contradict that and be correct.
I'll ask right now, do you honestly believe SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ Goku?
According to the Manga, Daizen, and Anime - ABSOLUTELY.
Amuro Ray wrote:Didn't Kaboom state that you should assume that because something was a guess, it's automatically correct - all we know for sure is that Gotenks is weaker than vegeta until after the training? No matter what theory you want to conjure, it cannot contradict that and be correct.
I'll ask right now, do you honestly believe SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ Goku?
According to the Manga, Daizen, and Anime - ABSOLUTELY.
Now explain why Goku would even consider putting the boys to fight Boo when they can't surpass Goku's SSJ form. Fat Boo won't lose to any SSJ or SSJ2 tier fighter(Vegetto doesn't exist yet). They never even take the boys to the ROSAT until after Super Boo appears. So they somehow expected Gotenks to fight Fat Boo as an SSJ without ROSAT training Why?
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Amuro Ray wrote:In a moment. Lets keep this civil.
That's fine, I wanna hear your reasoning for Goku's dependence on Gotenks if he only maxes out below SSJ Goku tier.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Goku tells Piccolo and the others that Vegeta was about as strong (Super Saiyan 2) as himself, and that he'd get his ass handed to him. Super Saiyan Gotenks demonstrated not only incredible power, but enough speed to go around the planet quite a few times rather quickly. You seriously think Super Saiyan Gotenks is emitting an even weaker Chi than both of them? Piccolo was only worried about his speed...and afterwards, fighting Boo when there wasn't much time left in fusion.
Seriously, Super Saiyan Gotenks isn't that weak. It's never implied.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
dbzfan7 wrote:Now explain why Goku would even consider putting the boys to fight Boo when they can't surpass Goku's SSJ form. Fat Boo won't lose to any SSJ or SSJ2(Vegetto doesn't exist yet). They never even take the boys to the ROSAT until after Super Boo appears. So they somehow expected Gotenks to fight Fat Boo as an SSJ without ROSAT training Why?
He doesn't have a legitimate reason for believing this. In his mind he chooses to believe Piccolo and Goku have all of a sudden lost the ability to gauge where Gotenks needs to be in order to hold his own against Fat Boo. And he tries to back up this claim by using the bios on Gotenks in Daizenshuu 7 where it says only after the RoSaT Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. When this sentence in the Daizenshuu 7 is as vague as it gets. It doesn't specify in what areas. Yet he chooses to believe that Vegeta > Gotenks in all areas pre-RoSaT. Neither Piccolo or Goku are dumb enough to send a kid, who according to Amuro Ray's theory is weaker than base Vegeta, to fight as a SSJ when SSJ2 Vegeta couldn't do anything to him.
Ludicrous to be honest. Even if Piccolo is questioning SSJ Gotenks speed Piccolo never says anything about his ki not being sufficient. If SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta, Piccolo would have said to them right there; not move on from ki to ask about what Gotenks speed is like.
I think Daizenshuu clearly stated Base Gotenks didn't surpass Majin Vegeta and the others. Which "others" meant as SSjin 2 Teen Gohan, SSjin 2 Goku and etc. SSjin Gotenks is different dimension to the "others" strength to defeat Majin Boo, which is what Son Goku was counting on.
SSJ4_Zankuto wrote:I think Daizenshuu clearly stated Base Gotenks didn't surpass Majin Vegeta and the others. Which "others" meant as SSjin 2 Teen Gohan, SSjin 2 Goku and etc. SSjin Gotenks is different dimension to the "others" strength to defeat Majin Boo, which is what Son Goku was counting on.
Agreed, its simply inconceivable that Piccolo would ignore stating SSJ Gotenks is too weak if SSJ Gotenks ki was weaker than any other SSJ Saiyan.
The Daizenshuu have to dance around the idea of anyone being stronger than Goku, because the books are concerned with both the manga and the anime's versions of things. The fact that they can do this without outright contradicting anything just goes to show what a disorganized hodge-podge the Majin Boo arc is, and no one approach to it is really any better than the other.
Can I ask a serious question, in an attempt to cut back on the "PSSSSAWWW. INCONCEIVABLE THAT YOU WOULD THINK SOMETHING!" responses...?
Why, exactly, do you expect there to be linear, consistent, absolute logic at this point in the series that every single one of you can come to a complete consensus on? We know that Toriyama's feelings on "strength" changed quite often, we know he was on his third and most lenient editor, and we know he was swapping up ideas constantly and having a good time doing so as he headed toward the finish line.
Yes, it's fun to look for logic and try to put things together as a fun puzzle, but I don't see why on Earth you need to let it get so out of hand that you start getting rude and tossing out insults at each others' intelligence over it. It's embarrassing to you as the people saying it, and it's embarrassing to me as someone who runs the place and has to step in and babysit every time a strength discussion comes up.
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:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
dbzfan7 wrote:Now explain why Goku would even consider putting the boys to fight Boo when they can't surpass Goku's SSJ form. Fat Boo won't lose to any SSJ or SSJ2(Vegetto doesn't exist yet). They never even take the boys to the ROSAT until after Super Boo appears. So they somehow expected Gotenks to fight Fat Boo as an SSJ without ROSAT training Why?
He doesn't have a legitimate reason for believing this. In his mind he chooses to believe Piccolo and Goku have all of a sudden lost the ability to gauge where Gotenks needs to be in order to hold his own against Fat Boo. And he tries to back up this claim by using the bios on Gotenks in Daizenshuu 7 where it says only after the RoSaT Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. When this sentence in the Daizenshuu 7 is as vague as it gets. It doesn't specify in what areas. Yet he chooses to believe that Vegeta > Gotenks in all areas pre-RoSaT. Neither Piccolo or Goku are dumb enough to send a kid, who according to Amuro Ray's theory is weaker than base Vegeta, to fight as a SSJ when SSJ2 Vegeta couldn't do anything to him.
Ludicrous to be honest. Even if Piccolo is questioning SSJ Gotenks speed Piccolo never says anything about his ki not being sufficient. If SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta, Piccolo would have said to them right there; not move on from ki to ask about what Gotenks speed is like.
It's his interpretation (I personally don't believe it) and I want to see his explanation as to why Goku and Piccolo would let Gotenks fight if Gotenks isn't even above SSJ Goku tier.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
