Battle Of Gods Base Goku Is Weaker Than Frieza?

[hleV]

Beerus says two things and Kaio remaks that Beerus is correct and well informed. Can you honestly say that being well informed while being wrong is not a contradiction?

Sure you can. Because Beers assessment of Goku isn't based on how well informed he is, but his knowledge of Super Saiyan is.

Yet Kaio concludes that he is well informed, suggesting that Beerus wasn't wrong about anything.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yeah, Kaio specifically says, "You are well informed."....

[Saiga]

I am aware, but all I've said is that it's possible that he was only referring to Goku turning Super Saiyan and not how base Goku compared to Freeza. We don't know for 100% sure. It's up to personal interpretation and while interpreting it as referring to both is valid, it's also valid to interpret it as only referring to Super Saiyan.

[Hugo Boss]

Beerus statement being all right doesn't lead us to the conclusion that Freeza is stronger than Base Goku, neither that he isn't. He simply doubts that the way Goku was he could beat Freeza, but is not like Goku is showing his full power in a polite conversation. He barely needs more than 5,000 to freely walk on that planet.

[Vice]

Son_Gohan has totally changed my mind on Piccolo and the initial Android's power. I still believe Piccolo is stronger than the base Saiyans here, but I definitely think I've been overestimating him big time. I think he's probably closer to the base Saiyans than he is to the Super Saiyans (ie if the base Saiyans are 1 and the Super Saiyans are 50, Piccolo wouldn't be 25 or over).

Except that Krillin totally contradicts everything that you're saying here by directly comparing him to a Super Saiyan.

[Vice]

Never believed Piccolo to have powered up so much, my minimum for him was and still is lower than the base Saiyans.

Wow, this is utterly ridiculous.

[hleV]

Son_Gohan has totally changed my mind on Piccolo and the initial Android's power. I still believe Piccolo is stronger than the base Saiyans here, but I definitely think I've been overestimating him big time. I think he's probably closer to the base Saiyans than he is to the Super Saiyans (ie if the base Saiyans are 1 and the Super Saiyans are 50, Piccolo wouldn't be 25 or over).

Except that Krillin totally contradicts everything that you're saying here by directly comparing him to a Super Saiyan.

Except that you obviously didn't read Son_Gohan's posts.

[Vice]

Except that you obviously didn't read Son_Gohan's posts.

Don't need to. It's a direct contradiction to what's in the manga.

[hleV]

Except that you obviously didn't read Son_Gohan's posts.

Don't need to. It's a direct contradiction to what's in the manga.

It is not. Son_Gohan explains why.

[Vice]

It is not. Son_Gohan explains why.

It is because Krillin can sense power levels. Hell Krillin can sense power people are trying to hide like he did with Trunks and Cell.

He didn't compare Piccolo to a Super Saiyan because their opponents were supposed to be of that level, he compared him to a Super Saiyan because he can read how strong he is.

[Super Vegetto]

Vice has a point. Piccolo doesn't have Super Saiyan form, yet Krillin can't explain his huge power up without having abbility to transform in something like Super Saiyan, not that Piccolo was strong as Super Saiyans post 3 years of training.

I can see his potential growing stronger after fusing with Nail and training with SSJ Goku, basicly the same like fusing with Kami and training with larger potential and bigger growth...

[hleV]

It is because Krillin can sense power levels. Hell Krillin can sense power people are trying to hide like he did with Trunks and Cell.

He didn't compare Piccolo to a Super Saiyan because their opponents were supposed to be of that level, he compared him to a Super Saiyan because he can read how strong he is.

Can you honestly say that you're writing this after reading everything Son_Gohan wrote? If you can, then, well, I don't even know what to add, I'll just pass because it's not worth it.

[Vice]

Can you honestly say that you're writing this after reading everything Son_Gohan wrote?

Yes. Krillin can read power levels and mentioned nothing of the androids. There is nothing to discuss.

If you can, then, well, I don't even know what to say, I'll just pass because it's not worth it.

Good. You were wrong anyway.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

What exactly is the problem here? The manga doesn't contradict this statement, so what reason is there to think it's incorrect? I realize people get a little too carried away with Dabura's statement, but seriously other than that, there's really nothing suggesting the base Saiyans are anything special. Now I am an oddball and do think Saiyans can put a little SSJ energy into their base forms, but that's unnecessary as far as the manga goes. I only did that to make sense of GT.

He said nothing about Goku can't beat Freeza in his base form becuase Goku was suppressed.

Well you would be wrong. Beers says that he doesn't think Goku could beat Freeza as he is now. Kaio agrees with Beers AND Goku doesn't argue. These are facts. Everything beyond that are assumptions, and people ASSUME Goku is stronger than Freeza because of a little statement that Dabura makes.

Would have to agree with the above. All points should be backed up with facts or it is nothing but an opinion and completely biased.

One would think Goku would of been stronger than base that far into the saga, but as already said, SSJ is 50x, this means Goku could easily be weaker than Freeza still despite the huge increase in his base form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kuririn was impressed that Piccolo could overpower the Artificial Humans, which were supposed to be stronger than the Super Saiyans. He never said that Piccolo was on Super Saiyan level.

[Saiga]

Agreed, all Kuririn said was he's not even a Super Saiyan, which only implies that he's stronger than a non-Super Saiyan should be. Which I think Piccolo is, being stronger than the base Saiyans.

[Vice]

No, it means he's shocked that someone could reach such a level of power that's not a Super Saiyan. He directly compared them.

[Saiga]

No, it means he's shocked that someone could reach such a level of power that's not a Super Saiyan. He directly compared them.

That level of power can be anywhere that would be shocking for a non Super Saiyan to reach. And there's a huge gap between base and Super Saiyan, so plenty of room for him to fit.

[KentalSSJ6]

Just accept it people. Goku's base power in BoG wasent at 120 million or above and hed still need Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza.

[Son_Gohan]

It is because Krillin can sense power levels. Hell Krillin can sense power people are trying to hide like he did with Trunks and Cell.

He didn't compare Piccolo to a Super Saiyan because their opponents were supposed to be of that level, he compared him to a Super Saiyan because he can read how strong he is.

You’re mistaken if you think Ki sensing works the same way a scouter would. A set number does not appear in their head in which they can reference from; it’s based off emotion. When done comparatively, it is shown to be relative to an event involving a person either presently or through memory. They don’t go calculating specific power ranges in their thoughts of just the transformation itself in the absence of a user giving off that impression of strength. However, Krillin’s words were never that Piccolo had become as strong as a Super Saiyan so it’s already a moot point.

Krillin had to be judging primarily by what he saw because the Androids do not have Ki. What he did know--or thought he knew--was that this enemy could not be defeated without being one. That is how his statement pertains to the situation. Seeing Piccolo beat on an opponent expected to be at such a level evokes an emotive response just as Ki sensing relies on, and paints him far stronger than he really should be given the case of mistaken identity.

You can find a similar example back when they were on Namek after Goku easily takes out members of the Ginyu Force. By witnessing his performance against opponents of that caliber, Krillin believes Goku can now defeat Freeza with no problem. Despite the fact Goku’s Ki didn’t reflect anywhere near the magnitude of Freeza’s proposed 530,000, which he was acquainted with. But Krillin puts his trust on sight because that is what gives the stronger emotional response, the same as in Piccolo’s case:



Now even hypothetically, if we were to consider Krillin was associating Piccolo’s power in the same level as a Super Saiyan, the minimum point of reference he would be aware of was SSj Trunks when he defeated Freeza. But even after Piccolo’s beatdown of #20, and after getting beatdown themselves by #17 and #18, the story depicts Trunks’ power and Freeza’s as still holding great significance:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”


Tenshinhan can also sense Ki and witnessed both instances first hand, yet the powers he felt 3 years ago still weighs heavily on his mind, that’s why the Ki Piccolo gave off earlier wouldn’t be anywhere near that. If anything is a direct contradiction to what’s in the manga, it is the idea of Piccolo being at a Super Saiyan level prior to merging with Kami. Provide proof of it bearing any relevance to the story after Trunks reveals #20 is not who they thought he was, because there's already enough to indicate he wasn't.