How strong is Base Vegetto?

[TheMightyOzaru]

The formula is flawed because Kiris themselves are flawed. Giving a value to a specific number can really mess with the conversion. Battle Power is more reliable because 1 = 1, while in the Kiri system 1 = 10.

The kiri measurement is not flawed at all. Kiri for Battle Powers is exactly what tons are for kilos, what cm are to mm, what minutes are to hours, etc. The formula is what is flawed.

It's flawed because it can't multiply 2 powers together without getting a flawed result. Battle power suffers no such problem.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's flawed because it can't multiply 2 powers together without getting a flawed result. Battle power suffers no such problem.

But the battle powers are made-up numbers, they are not ki. There is not 1 ki, or 2 ki, or 1.000.000 ki, except if you are talking about multiple persons. They are made up numbers, just like minutes are made up numbers. Numbers don't even exist.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's flawed because it can't multiply 2 powers together without getting a flawed result. Battle power suffers no such problem.

But the battle powers are made-up numbers, they are not ki. There is not 1 ki, or 2 ki, or 1.000.000 ki, except if you are talking about multiple persons.

Again battle power is superior to Kiris because they don't have specific values allocated to specific numbers. Having specific values allocated to specific numbers screws with the result of 2 powers being multiplied together. Kiris to are made up numbers too so I fail to see what you're criticizing.

[goku the krump dancer]

Kiri for Battle Powers is exactly what tons are for kilos, what cm are to mm, what minutes are to hours, etc.

Is that stated some where or something you're just assuming?

It is stated that 1 kiri is equal to 50.000 BP units.

Well that can't be right because unless my calculations are wrong that would mean SSJ Goku in the Boo arc is no stronger than he was when he first transformed in the Freeza arc. Unless he was holding back.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He could be holding back, but I have hard time believing he would suppress himself that much. Kaioshin also claims that as a SSJ, Goku is stronger than him so take that as you will. I would also like to know what guide that 1 = 50,000 thing came from.

[TheGmGoken]

They combine the two ki into great power. How does SSJ know to multiply ki by 50x? It's the same thing with Potara. They just multiply the two people's energy into one body.

The form/technique multipliers are different. These are set multipliers that have a stable increase. The "A x B = C" formula however isn't that. It's "1.748.819.384 x 1.874.842.450 = 3.278.760.818.506.050.800". This doesn't make sense.

Let's use the SS multiplier & the Potara "formula" with both BPs & kiri, and let's assume that 50.000 BP = 1 kiri.

Goku/Vegeta = 100.000 BP = 2 kiri

Vegetto = 100.000 BP x 100.000 BP = 10.000.000.000 BP = 200.000 kiri

Vegetto = 2 kiri X 2 kiri = 4 kiri = 200.000 BP

SS Goku = 100.000 BP x 50 = 5.000.000 BP = 100 kiri

SS Goku = 2 kiri X 50 = 100 kiri = 5.000.000 BP

See? This formula is flawed. Also, the SS multipliers are increases, not only multiplications. We have a set amount of power, and it adds 50 times greater power. We can multiply a table by 50, which will give us 50 tables, but we can't multiply a table with a table. The form/technique multipliers make sense, but this doesn't.

Kiri and power levels was only used to show how useless their are. Hence why they stopped. Fans use them to make debates easier. Kiri is to different from Power levels anyways. The obviously the increase will be different. That's like comparaing Centimeters to Yards. When they mean Multiply ki it means to reproduce, proliferate, generate, or produce the Ki(s) into a Large big power. That's complex I'll admit since "Ki" isn't a number. But take like this. Mix Water with Powder. Water have zero taste and powder has some taste. Mix them together and add the Sugar you'll get a great taste. Same case with Potara. Vegeta is the water. Goku is the powder. Both lack the power. So you mix them and add some sugar(Potara) and they produce or generate a big Ki that is a product of both of their ki(s).

Kiri would be the United States customary systems of measurement

Power levels are the metric system

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Again battle power is superior to Kiris because they don't have specific values allocated to specific numbers. Having specific values allocated to specific numbers screws with the result of 2 powers being multiplied together. Kiris to are made up numbers too so I fail to see what you're criticizing.

The thing is, a formula should apply to every kind of measurement of ki. The SS multipliers apply to both BP & kiri measuments. This "formula" doesn't, and we don't even know if it is supposed to be a formula.

Well that can't be right because unless my calculations are wrong that would mean SSJ Goku in the Boo arc is no stronger than he was when he first transformed in the Freeza arc. Unless he was holding back.

The statement was more like a conclusion based on SS Goku against Yakon, and Goku wasn't going all out against him.

But even if we disregard this, it's obvious that a set number of BP units is equal to 1 kiri.

Kiri and power levels was only used to show how useless their are. Hence why they stopped. Fans use them to make debates easier. Kiri is to different from Power levels anyways. The obviously the increase will be different. That's like comparaing Centimeters to Yards. When they mean Multiply ki it means to reproduce, proliferate, generate, or produce the Ki(s) into a Large big power. That's complex I'll admit since "Ki" isn't a number. But take like this. Mix Water with Powder. Water have zero taste and powder has some taste. Mix them together and add the Sugar you'll get a great taste. Same case with Potara. Vegeta is the water. Goku is the powder. Both lack the power. So you mix them and add some sugar(Potara) and they produce or generate a big Ki that is a product of both of their ki(s).

I'm not arguing with this. I'm arguing about Vegetto's BP supposedly being Goku's BP multiplied by Vegeta's BP. You can't multiply water, powder, and sugar together.

[TheMightyOzaru]

If the SEG says battle power is multiplied, battle power is multiplied. Since when has Dragon Ball made perfect sense? Yeah sure, I'm all for trying to make sense of things the best we can, but multiplying 2 Kis together really shouldn't require so much thought. It is what it is. Honestly though, who says Kiris can't be involved and still make sense? You'd just have to convert them from battle to Kiri after multiplying the battle powers.

[TheGmGoken]

Kiri and power levels was only used to show how useless their are. Hence why they stopped. Fans use them to make debates easier. Kiri is to different from Power levels anyways. The obviously the increase will be different. That's like comparaing Centimeters to Yards. When they mean Multiply ki it means to reproduce, proliferate, generate, or produce the Ki(s) into a Large big power. That's complex I'll admit since "Ki" isn't a number. But take like this. Mix Water with Powder. Water have zero taste and powder has some taste. Mix them together and add the Sugar you'll get a great taste. Same case with Potara. Vegeta is the water. Goku is the powder. Both lack the power. So you mix them and add some sugar(Potara) and they produce or generate a big Ki that is a product of both of their ki(s).

I'm not arguing with this. I'm arguing about Vegetto's BP supposedly being Goku's BP multiplied by Vegeta's BP. You can't multiply water, powder, and sugar together.

Don't use the word Multiply. There are others words that mean the same thing. Reproduce(To multiply). You don't Multiply people. But people do reproduce. Generate(To multiply) is what happens when you mix Water, Sugar, and Powder, They generate Kool-Aid. Produce(Multiply) is another example. Goku and Vegeta PRODUCED Vegetto. Substitute the wording and it fits quite well.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If the SEG says battle power is multiplied, battle power is multiplied.

But it doesn't say that! It just says that the Potara work more like a multiplication rather than addition, and has a "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto". The "x" doesn't only mean "times", it also means "cross", meaning that what they are saying could be "Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto"
Another guide says that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than Goten or Trunks, and has a "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks". Does that mean that Fusion works like "A + B = C"?

Don't use the word Multiply. There are others words that mean the same thing. Reproduce(To multiply). You don't Multiply people. But people do reproduce. Generate(To multiply) is what happens when you mix Water, Sugar, and Powder, They generate Kool-Aid. Produce(Multiply) is another example. Goku and Vegeta PRODUCED Vegetto. Substitute the wording and it fits quite well.

But we are talking about literal multiplication between battle powers right now.

[TheMightyOzaru]

If the SEG says battle power is multiplied, battle power is multiplied.

But it doesn't say that!

I'm fairly certain it does say that actually:

Spoiler:

Yup indeed it does. I can see the Kanjis for Battle power: 戦闘力

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Where are the kanji? Is it in the "Goku X Vegeta" thing?

[TheGmGoken]

Don't use the word Multiply. There are others words that mean the same thing. Reproduce(To multiply). You don't Multiply people. But people do reproduce. Generate(To multiply) is what happens when you mix Water, Sugar, and Powder, They generate Kool-Aid. Produce(Multiply) is another example. Goku and Vegeta PRODUCED Vegetto. Substitute the wording and it fits quite well.

But we are talking about literal multiplication between battle powers right now.

You're thinking about it to much. You're like over thinking it. Everything what I said is a literal multiplication. Just using a different word. Saying plus and add is literal addition just with different words. Also as Mighty said. DBZ can get weird at times. Hell Fusion itself is weird. Potara takes the two ki(s) and produce a stronger being that generated a stronger ki. In a sense multiplied them. If you're curious about Fusion Dance. Then take it like this. Fusion dance can be just as strong as Potara IF the fusions are equal. Gogeta is like Vegeta's power(Since Vegeta wasn't equal to Goku in the movie) to the second power. While Vegetto is equal powers(Goku and Vegeta) together. So they're both the the second power so to speak. But one is a weaker BP then the other. Some confusing. But say it like this.

Fusion Dance:
A = 14
B = 10.
A lowers power to 10.
10 ^ 2 = 100.

Potara
A = 14
B = 10.
14 x 10 = 140.

Now take how you want Elder Kai's statement how you will but to me this is how Potara get it power. Hope this helps your case. I understand that Ki isn't a number. But just remember WPS. Water Powder Sugar.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Where are the kanji? Is it in the "Goku X Vegeta" thing?

A little to the left of SSJ3 Goku. and slightly above Rou Kaioshin

[RandomGuy96]

It is stated that 1 kiri is equal to 50.000 BP units.

What? Where?

And Vegetto being Goku x Vegeta doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Not only because ki isn't actually numbers, but because it directly contradicts the previous precedent about fusions that appear to be math problems (Goten + Trunks = Gotenks), SERIOUSLY overestimates something that was just an ambiguous off-hand statement in the original (and isn't even present at all in the official translation), brings up the question of Kaioshin, and introduces obvious fridge logic (would SS Vegetto who is made from SS Goku x SS Vegeta be stronger than SS Vegetto made from base x base who then transforms? That doesn't even make any logical sense). Just comes across as an excuse for Vegetto wanking.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Since there is a Goku x Vegeta sign in the SEG, it's perfectly reasonable for people to assume it's A x B. I don't abide by it, but it's certainly not wrong.

[RandomGuy96]

Since there is a Goku x Vegeta sign in the SEG, it's perfectly reasonable for people to assume it's A x B. I don't abide by it, but it's certainly not wrong.

So is Gotenks Goten + Trunks?

[TheGmGoken]

It is stated that 1 kiri is equal to 50.000 BP units.

What? Where?

And Vegetto being Goku x Vegeta doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Not only because ki isn't actually numbers, but because it directly contradicts the previous precedent about fusions that appear to be math problems (Goten + Trunks = Gotenks), SERIOUSLY overestimates something that was just an ambiguous off-hand statement in the original (and isn't even present at all in the official translation), brings up the question of Kaioshin, and introduces obvious fridge logic (would SS Vegetto who is made from SS Goku x SS Vegeta be stronger than SS Vegetto made from base x base who then transforms? That doesn't even make any logical sense). Just comes across as an excuse for Vegetto wanking.

Till this day. I still follow your theory.

This might seem (very) arbitrary, but... I think I have one for my theory.

The multiplier is A + B x whatever percentage of the stronger fusee the weaker fusee is. Let me demonstrate...

Let's say Kaioshin is 2,500,000,000 and Kibito is 70,000,000. 70,000,000 is 2.8% of 2,500,000,000. Therefore the equation would be (2,500,000,000 + 70,000,000) x 2.8, which would be 7,200,000,000 (actually 71,960,000,000 but rounded for simplicity's sake). A nice boost, but nothing that would let him be relevant against Buu.

Let's use an example of someone getting weaker. Say that the original Elder Kaioshin was 3,000,000,000. He fused with a witch that was, say, 300,000. That witch is 0.01% of him. So it'd be (3,000,000,000 + 300,000) x 0.01 = 30,030,000. He went from on the same level as the current East Kaioshin to weaker than base Goku, who knocked him out with a single blast.

Let's use the last example for the full boost; Vegetto. Goku and Vegeta can't stop Gohan-Buu, even with the dance, but they have the potara. Thanks to Babidi, both of these guys are basically equal. If Vegeta and Goku are both 100,000,000 in base, then Vegeta is 100% of Goku. Therefore, that's the multiplier. It goes (100,000,000 + 100,000,000) x 100, which would make base Vegetto 20,000,000,000. He does the Super Saiyan transformation on top of that to become Super Vegetto, with a power level of 1,000,000,000,000, enough to stomp Gohan-Buu.

Let me know if I made a mistake. I usually suck with this.

We also have the hypothetical potaras. Gokule would've been a complete weakling, I don't think I need to say that. But what about Gokan?

It depends on if Goku can be transformed while fusing, and whether or not Gohan's ultimate state is something he powers up into, and not just his base. I'll assume he still has his base form somewhere down there due to BOG and Movie 13. Dbzfan, you have this saga's base Gohan at 75,000,000... 75% of Goku, obviously. So we'll use with that with base Goku's 100,000,000. (100,000,000 + 75,000,000) x 75 = 17,500,000,000. Weaker than Vegetto, yet still strong enough to beat Gohan-Buu, probably just with normal Super Saiyan. Then again, this still isn't enough to beat Buutenks in base, like Old Kaioshin said it would, but perhaps he was thinking that Gokan could use the ultimate state as well...?

Like I said, I interpret the whole meaning of the statement as "they rival each other in power", because I think it's dumb for a pair of magical earrings to just decide "hey, we're going to boost these guys more cause they hate each other".

Seems fitting to me. I know guidebook would never confirm a formula(Besides the A x B one) But this is one of the few theories I follow. I do like the theory I just came up with though.

Fusion dance can be just as strong as Potara IF the fusions are equal. Gogeta is like Vegeta's power(Since Vegeta wasn't equal to Goku in the movie) to the second power. While Vegetto is equal powers(Goku and Vegeta) together. So they're both the the second power so to speak. But one is a weaker BP then the other. Some confusing. But say it like this.

Gives a chance that Fusion Dance COULD be just as strong as Potara.

[KentalSSJ6]

It is stated that 1 kiri is equal to 50.000 BP units.

What? Where?

And Vegetto being Goku x Vegeta doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Not only because ki isn't actually numbers, but because it directly contradicts the previous precedent about fusions that appear to be math problems (Goten + Trunks = Gotenks), SERIOUSLY overestimates something that was just an ambiguous off-hand statement in the original (and isn't even present at all in the official translation), brings up the question of Kaioshin, and introduces obvious fridge logic (would SS Vegetto who is made from SS Goku x SS Vegeta be stronger than SS Vegetto made from base x base who then transforms? That doesn't even make any logical sense). Just comes across as an excuse for Vegetto wanking.

I think its in one of the Daizenshuus or Super Exciting Guides thought I dont put much stock in it as that would imply SSJ Goku when fighting Yakon would be 150 million, no different then when he fought Freeza.

[RandomGuy96]

I wouldn't have any problem with that, since SS Goku most likely wasn't at full power (he was either stronger than or a tiny bit weaker than Yakon, and 800 x 50 > 3000 obviously), I just want to know where it comes from.