Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[rereboy]

You are using an uncited paragraph from Wikipedia. My source is the first definition on Webster's Dictionary. I work in the historical field, as well as the political one, and I assure you that these terms are still valid. You are referring to the stereotype, not the definition as it was meant to be used.

Your historical field is creating a bias towards these terms that make you unwilling to realize that these terms, as any term in language over time, has evolved, and is now only commonly used as a reference for a country advancement, instead of a defunct distinction between allied capitalist countries, communist countries and neutral countries from which the terms originated and that you probably studied in detail.

Terms are not static, they don't retain their original meaning forever, people adapt them to their new reality and as such language evolves. The fact that you are treating this evolution, this new meaning, as nothing more than a stereotype is already telling that you aren't even considering the evolutionary nature of the meaning of terms and words. The term "gay", for example, was once used for something very different than a way to refer to "homosexuals", but the term evolved and nowadays its basically only used for its new meaning in common language. Would you also call it just a stereotype?

There's no real common usage of the terms "first world" and "third world" with their original meaning nowadays, and if you told a man from Switzerland that he was from a third world country, he would, most likely, be offended instead of assuming that you were saying that he was from a neutral country in the context of the cold war.

[Kamiccolo9]

You are using an uncited paragraph from Wikipedia. My source is the first definition on Webster's Dictionary. I work in the historical field, as well as the political one, and I assure you that these terms are still valid. You are referring to the stereotype, not the definition as it was meant to be used.

Your historical field is creating a bias towards these terms that make you unwilling to realize that these terms, as any term in language over time, has evolved, and is now only commonly used as a reference for a country advancement, instead of a defunct distinction between allied capitalist countries, communist countries and neutral countries from which the terms originated and that you probably studied in detail.

Terms are not static, they don't retain their original meaning forever, people adapt them to their new reality and as such language evolves. The fact that you are treating this evolution, this new meaning, as nothing more than a stereotype is already telling that you aren't even considering the evolutionary nature of the meaning of terms and words. The term "gay", for example, was once used for something very different than a way to refer to "homosexuals", but the term evolved and nowadays its basically only used for its new meaning in common language. Would you also call it just a stereotype?

There's no real common usage of the terms "first world" and "third world" with their original meaning nowadays, and if you told a man from Switzerland that he was from a third world country, he would, most likely, be offended instead of assuming that you were saying that he was from a neutral country in the context of the cold war.

I understand that. But just because words take on new meanings doesn't mean that the original meanings are no longer valid. It just means that there are more definitions. "Gay" still means "happy and carefree" when used in that context. The fact that that context isn't used as often anymore doesn't negate the existence of that meaning of the word. Common usage does not dictate the absolute meaning of words.

The term "Third-World" country has built up a new meaning based on the connotation of most of the third-world countries having been poor, developing nations. That does not mean that the previous definition no longer exists (you could argue such for Second-World, I suppose, though) only that a new popular conception has risen. So, no, Rocketman was not incorrect when he stated that the Philippines and Turkey are first-world countries, just as I was not incorrect in saying that Austria and Switzerland are third-world. If a person from either of those countries got offended at the way I referred to their country, then it would be because they didn't understand the meaning of the term, or the context I was using that it. Which is unfortunate, but in no way makes me incorrect.

[Hades]

My original point was that women in the US/Canada/UK/Austria/France have far less to complain about than their equivalents in Turkey/Russia/Egypt. I mean, the purported subject of "bechdel test" is trivial compared to women in Egypt being subject to acid attacks.

[Kamiccolo9]

My original point was that women in the US/Canada/UK/Austria/France have far less to complain about than their equivalents in Turkey/Russia/Egypt. I mean, the purported subject of "bechdel test" is trivial compared to women in Egypt being subject to acid attacks.

And again, as you continue to ignore, the existence of worse problems does not negate the existence of "lesser" problems. Doctors don't stop trying to help people with the flu just because someone a few doors down is dying of cancer.

[Rocketman]

My original point was that women in the US/Canada/UK/Austria/France have far less to complain about than their equivalents in Turkey/Russia/Egypt. I mean, the purported subject of "bechdel test" is trivial compared to women in Egypt being subject to acid attacks.

How do you manage to make any decisions in your day-to-day life?

"Should we get tacos for lunch, guys?" "THERE'S CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA HOW CAN YOU WASTE TIME ON SUCH PALTRY THINGS"

Or do you only bring this argument out when you want to shout down feminism?

[Hades]

My original point was that women in the US/Canada/UK/Austria/France have far less to complain about than their equivalents in Turkey/Russia/Egypt. I mean, the purported subject of "bechdel test" is trivial compared to women in Egypt being subject to acid attacks.

How do you manage to make any decisions in your day-to-day life?

"Should we get tacos for lunch, guys?" "THERE'S CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA HOW CAN YOU WASTE TIME ON SUCH PALTRY THINGS"

Or do you only bring this argument out when you want to shout down feminism?

It's more of a reminder that "check your privilege" rings very hollow when its main advocates are white, middle class, educated, and live in a very well-off part of the world. I'm sure that women in Pakistan or El Salvador would think "That's cute" when they look at how western academics discuss how the Bechdel test is so important.

[Rocketman]

Am I allowed to complain about a pothole on my street, or does the lack of transportation in rural Pakistan outweigh that?

[Hades]

Am I allowed to complain about a pothole on my street, or does the lack of transportation in rural Pakistan outweigh that?

Complaining about local grievances is one thing (backstabbing politicians, poor infrastructure). It is completely another to inflate it out of proportion and make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Kingdom Heartless]

But discussing anything to do with Dragon Ball is the point of this forum. Of course discussions about the content of a cartoon/manga is going to seem trivial when weighed against huge global problems.

[VyeRo]

Reading this entire thread in one go was amusing, but also slightly disturbing.

To be honest, the entire time I was reading I only got "But what about the men??!! What about our feelings!!?" from it. Which is kinda insulting to some of you, but trust me when I say I'm not trying to offend anyone. The thing is, this could have been a thread about the representation of women in DB or in the general media, and how the current state could be improved etc, but it became a discussion of which group (men or women) has it worse and it's kinda telling of the mindset some users have.

Yes, men can be sexually objectified too or treated in a sexist manner in media, but it comes nowhere near close to the amount of sexism or objectification women in media (and real life!) have to face and have faced for decades. Just look at the numerous studies that have been done on the state of women in media, or even the latest statistics on sexual violence against women all over the world. That's why feminists don't really talk about violence or sexism against men because it's so minor compared to what women everywhere go through. Does this mean feminists are in favor of violence against men? Of course not! But it's not on their political agenda, as there are far more pressing issues at hand. Feminists are not man-haters, you know.

So what I'm trying to say is that yes, men can have it bad too, and they do! However, women have it far worse, and because they are so underrepresented in the general media, whenever a female character DOES show up she has to be held to a set of standards. It's very depressing to see women in movies and they're only there for sexual gratification (Michael Bay is exceptionally good at this, but he's a sexist POS ). Or when there are boobs and ass shots of a main female character that are completely unnecessary and doesn't contribute anything to the plot. So whenever there's a main female character there's the Bechdel test. I agree that it's too simplistic and certainly won't stop me from seeing a movie when it fails the test, but I think the test itself is very good at exposing underlying flaws in the representation of women. I mean, movies and shows are supposed to be a reflection or at least an imitation of real life, so according to them the world is made up of 4/5 males and 1/5 females...I mean.. wha??! It doesn't make any sense. And let's not start about the representation of people of color in Hollywood.

Just my 2cents.

[Gaffer Tape]

but it became a discussion of which group (men or women) has it worse and it's kinda telling of the mindset some users have.

While I agree that the fact this became a discussion about who has it worse was very disheartening to me, you have to realize that the entire rest of your post does exactly that in spades. Sigh, could all this posturing and competition please just stop?

[Fizzer]

This whole "competition" discussion really brings attention to the difference between feminism and equalism. One is the approach of assessing which group is the most oppressed at the moment and taking measures to compensate for the problems faced by that group and elevate them, while the other is assessing what the utopian ideal would be and trying to head straight for that. Making time-dependent corrections to the current situation vs having nothing but an end goal in mind.

[Hades]

@VyeRo

People living in the US/Canada/Western Europe/Australia have NO IDEA how good they have it under most circumstances (it's basically the easiest difficulty setting possible, and if you're middle class or above, you have access to cheat codes). My overall point is that the Bechdel Test is largely a First World Problem because women in the aforementioned countries aren't at risk of being forced into prostitution by organised crime like in the former Warsaw Pact, sold into slavery as maids to Arabian aristocracy, having zero control over their reproductive rights even in the most grave circumstances unlike in El Salvador.

[Rocketman]

Because as we know, there is absolutely no organized crime, prostitution, or restriction of reproductive rights in these glorious United States.

Do you actually have a point, because you seem to keep saying that First World citizens cannot talk about their own problems.

Sigh, could all this posturing and competition please just stop? :cry:

No, because mealy-mouthed "everywun has problemssss" horseshit is completely worthless. It does not inspire people to FIX those problems, because the tendency of humanity is to go "welp, as long as everybody else suffers too, it's fine".

Slavery was not ended by mewling about how bad Northern factory workers had it.

Factory conditions were not improved by constantly bringing up how bad the Chinese railroad laborers had it.

Women did not gain the right to vote by being sure to include messages about how rough it was for the men too in every speech so as to be "fair".

[Gaffer Tape]

Sigh, could all this posturing and competition please just stop?

No, because mealy-mouthed "everywun has problemssss" horseshit is completely worthless. It does not inspire people to FIX those problems, because the tendency of humanity is to go "welp, as long as everybody else suffers too, it's fine".

I have to call bullshit on that, funnily enough, and that's because...

Slavery was not ended by mewling about how bad Northern factory workers had it.

Factory conditions were not improved by constantly bringing up how bad the Chinese railroad laborers had it.

Women did not gain the right to vote by being sure to include messages about how rough it was for the men too in every speech so as to be "fair".

...I agree with absolutely everything you say right here. In fact, that's exactly why I keep bitching about it. Because what you just typed is exactly what you've been doing this entire conversation. For example, any time anyone mentions any kind of sexism against men, people like you feel absolutely compelled to jump in and go, "How dare you complain about that when women have it even worse?!" It annoys me just as much when people derail a conversation to say, "How dare women complain when...?" or "How dare gays complain when....?" or "How dare....?" in regards to anybody. You're right. No progress is ever made when people do that crap. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've said that in this thread verbatim. That's why I keep complaining when so many people in this thread, including you, keep doing it! When I ask people to stop competing, it's so that anyone can feel comfortable to discuss and try to fix their issues without someone coming in and telling them they don't deserve to.

Do you actually have a point, because you seem to keep saying that First World citizens cannot talk about their own problems.

That's why I find comments like the one above you make towards Hades to be so funny because you're doing the exact same thing. But for some reason, it's okay when you do it but not him? It's okay when you tell people you think are more privileged to suck it up, but it's not okay when he tells people he thinks are more privileged to suck it up?

[Rocketman]

That's why I find comments like the one above you make towards Hades to be so funny because you're doing the exact same thing. But for some reason, it's okay when you do it but not him? It's okay when you tell people you think are more privileged to suck it up, but it's not okay when he tells people he thinks are more privileged to suck it up?

I said nothing about privilege. The topic is about First World feminism. "Men have problems too" and "the Third World has problems too" are both distractions from this topic. Yes, they're true, but they also don't matter because they are not what is being discussed.

Yes, the situation of Chinese railroad labor sucks, but we're talking factory conditions.

[Gaffer Tape]

That's semantics, but it's not about privilege. It's about telling people who has the right to complain. Hades is doing it, and so are you. Granted, it's something that comes up in discussion on this board a lot any time a new Dragon Ball release comes out, so...

You're right. All this other stuff is not on-topic. And that bothers me. But you are the one who helped turn it into the competition that it is now. A week ago, when I first saw this thread, I was all pumped to come in and discuss the Bechdel Test and how it relates to Dragon Ball and saw that, unlike an earlier iteration of this thread, people weren't just dismissing the notion out of hand. I was annoyed at the people who were scoffing that this question be raised and even more so at the ones who were doing so without even accurately know what it was and was glad you were making posts to correct them. And although I agree with Gyt Kaliba, I thought it was a misstep when he brought in the, "Well, men are victims of sexism too." But then you dropped this bombshell:

Imagine a country where by law women are not allowed to speak to each other. This country also mandates that its men exercise every day to reach a physical standard.

Which policy should be removed first?

And it's been a no-holds-barred competition-fest from everyone ever since then. Because you set up the competition. And in light of everything else that was said, I felt that was the most important thing to address at that moment because that's a big pet peeve of mine.

[Rocketman]

True, that was out of a hefty amount of annoyance that there can't be one fucking thread on this whole forum even vaguely about feminism without somebody charging in to say "hrm yes but, what about..the mennnnnnnnnnnnnnn".

[Gaffer Tape]

Haha, well, it seems, in a general sense, we're in agreement then. It feels nice to finally get there.

*shakes hands*

Carry on, please. Carry on.

[Kid Buu]

(Michael Bay is exceptionally good at this, but he's a sexist POS ).

Just my 2cents.

There was actually a Michael Bay/Dragon Ball comparison made a while back in another thread. I was meaning to make a thread on it, but forgot. Thanks for reminding me.