Toriyama Is Ruining DragonBall?!

[Gaffer Tape]

I think there was a better place to post this, but I've been looking around and I don't seem to find it, so I think I'll just say it here.

Toriyama says in the last Q&A that Mr. Satan's late wife's name was MIGUEL, being a reference to the Archangel.
Wasn't there anyone around to tell him that Miguel is a real legitimate MALE ONLY name?

Yep. Male only name. Kinda like Ashley. And Taylor. And Ronny. And Sam. And Chris.

So, no, for all the things Toriyama has been doing lately that have annoyed me, giving a woman the name Miguel is not going to be one of them.

[UltimateHammerBro]

I was just wondering about that as well, though for another additional reason. I admit I'm not up on my bible references, but...was...there even an archangel named Miguel? *scratches head* I've heard of MICHAEL of course, but I don't remember a Miguel. And for that matter, though I'm kind of doubting it, were there any more feminine names that could have worked for the same joke of an angel and a devil (which I do like the parallel there).

But eh, this is a world where people are routinely named after vegetables and other foods, articles of clothing, and musical instruments - a female character with a more traditionally male name isn't so bizarre after all I guess.

Well, I'm not really into the Bible, but I know that biblical names are translated in each language and most of them have become normal names. "Miguel" is the Spanish and Portuguese equivalent for "Michael", and all of them derived from the Hebrew "Mikael". So they're, in fact, the same name in different languages.

That said, a quick search revealed that when Japanese christians went into hiding, many words were untranslated from Latin, Portuguese and Spanish: that could cause that the archangel figure is known as Miguel in Japan. Could a Japanese please confirm this?

Yep. Male only name. Kinda like Ashley. And Taylor. And Ronny. And Sam. And Chris.

So, no, for all the things Toriyama has been doing lately that have annoyed me, giving a woman the name Miguel is not going to be one of them.

Not quite. You're quoting English names, and several shortened versions which can lead to, at least, two possible names. Miguel is neither an English name nor a possible female name.

[kei17]

That said, a quick search revealed that when Japanese christians went into hiding, many words were untranslated from Latin, Portuguese and Spanish: that could cause that the archangel figure is known as Miguel in Japan. Could a Japanese please confirm this?

Since the missionaries spread Christianity in Japan first were all from Portugal or Spain, many words related to Christianity were directly adopted from Portuguese, Spanish, and Latin. For example, the God was referred to as Deusu (Deus). Maybe Japanese Christians at the time referred to the Archangel Michael as Migeru (Miguel). However, Christianity was severely cracked down, and it had been almost dead until the late 19th century. After the the Meiji Restoration, Christianity was "reimported" mainly from English speaking countries, and now only a few Churches that survived from the fierce crackdown are using old terms adopted from Iberian languages. Michael is normally called "Mikaeru" (Mikael) today.

Wasn't there anyone around to tell him that Miguel is a real legitimate MALE ONLY name?

I'm sure that over 99% of the Japanese have no clue about that. Also, Migeru sounds gender-neutral to Japanese speakers.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Given the wonderful invention of personal canon, I'm not particularly concerned one way or the other, but some people take this stuff pretty seriously. Is Toriyama doing a disservice to his own creation by adding to it? Should he sit out of it? What do you think of his involvement with the DragonBall property as of late?

I dont have a problem with him adding his imput in retrospect with things he overlooked prior to the series before but the angles hes been taking dont seem to be well thought through. A lot of which seems to just be light jokes upon the concepts he had in general rather than anything he meant to change in the canon. Thats at least how I took bizzare statements like Babidi having a doppleganger (the most eyebrow raising explaination I've heard yet.) but the problems I see are when the things he edits don't expand anything but just apply only for gag-purposes. Rarther than connect things together that could fit, he seems to facitiously hacknee his explainations off the first thing that pops into his head. Though I cant blame him if DB is the only thing he has that makes a dime these days.
I actually feel sorry for him. With Toriyama I see more of his additions to DB; being used as his safety net for relevance in the Mangaka buisness rather than really trying to expand what milk is left in it. A lot of what hes tried to do has not at all been very useful at all when his editors don't look them over. I dont think he realizes that his word is law to a lot of people and all the confusing things he tells us now without understanding his own story is destroying it. Hes merely pitching ideas rather than reviewing what makes the most sense with the question. Him winging it is like what happened to superman way he was pre-crisis.

I have no solution but I really dont like the direction hes going with in how hes altering things we didnt need to know. His explaination of #16 makes no sense, his explaination of #17 doesnt sound logical, his explaination of Beerus and Freeza is still questionable... etc. There needs to be someone who knows enough about the series to help tweak these ideas into something that actually works before they become autocanonized.

[TheGmGoken]

His explaination of #16 makes no sense

Explain more please. Very curious why you said this. I love how 16 is based on his son.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

His explaination of #16 makes no sense

Explain more please. Very curious why you said this. I love how 16 is based on his son.

Its been debated already and I dont inherently have a problem with it but its one of those trivial facts that mean absoluely nothing to the series. Like why 17 and 16 have different natural haircolours for being twins. With #16's its the eyebrow raisers to why he would make a sentimental image, a weapon bound to be destroyed by the target. There are many theories on it, which I admit fix it all theoretically, like:
- Gero having second thoughts on using him as a weapon over just an assistant hence why he didnt want #17/18 to wake him prematurely.
- Or his kindness being a mask against Goku so he wouldnt be detectable as a threat by Goku on sight.
...But those theories arent canon. Just band-aids, as far as they go they arent true to whatever Toriyama was thinking. I don't want to debate on this particularly though. I don't care enough, but its just an example of some of the contrasting elements to the modern interpretations not compleltly fitting into the puzzle holes of the old series, regardless of how we can rationalize them.
Its just like where people are complaining about Kid Buu being a force of nature or manifesto rather than a created monster as newly retconned. I personally don't have a problem with it, and can easily explain that too, but what I saw wont be true.

The only thing that was pathetic from Toriyama was the Minus chapter. INCONSISTENCY OVERLOAD!Another thing is that if there is a next DBZ movie, Toriyama just needs to do the important parts of the storytelling and not do the whole movie, cuz I see where half the hate for BOG is coming from, the comedy isn't funny(and that's why I sometimes don't like the original DB). Other than that, he can bring on the new good stuff, as long as it makes sense.

Agreed completely. Toriyama's greatest strength is simply character creation and design. There has never been a character I could say I really hated in the series, I liked some over others but I never found anyone as really irritating as I can easily in Naruto or Yugioh GX. Thats something he has always done well, but writing, not at all. Clearly his weakest element and he knows this, the problem is - he's always being given that task despite it. The japanese audience clearly has lower standards but even still. If not for Beerus and Whis's appearances, nothing at all would be forgivingly memorable about BOG. Nothing that would make it significant as a theatre movie of all possible heights.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Like why 17 and 16 have different natural haircolours for being twins.

I'm going to assume you mean 18 here, but why is them having different hair colors a problem? Despite the very similar appearance, nothing says they are identical twins to my knowledge. Fraternal twins don't share the same egg, so they can have different traits like hair colors.

[TheGmGoken]

Like why 17 and 16 have different natural haircolours for being twins.

That has to be explained?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_ ... c.29_twins

Should read that. Ever heard or met a pair of Fraternal Twins?

[Cetra]

16 is no twin. He is a robot with an A.I. Lapis and Lazuli are the twins. And yes, there are twins like that that exist which is the very reason why they can have a different gender and other different traits in the first place.

It wouldn't be subjective at all to how wrong this is.

It would be objectively true as he owns the brand and so has the full rights to decide how this universe works, meaning if Piccolo is a Saiyajin, then he is a Saiyajin, no matter how wrong the aspects might look for you, he defines the meaning of those elements. Just as you can create something and years later give it a new meaning.

@rereboy: I know that. They are still twins. They are called "twins" so they are twins, no matter if called "true" or "not". It is not so regular when they are born the same day. They were part of then same pregnancy and have the same birthday so calling them twins, which is defined is still correct. One egg is not necessary for twins, otherwise those "false twins" would not be called "twins" at all and when they officially are called "twins" they are twins. They are just two kinds of twins. So basically being twins and regular siblings is nothing you can't be at the same time because of the definitions, since a false twin is still a twin, just not the same kind.

[rereboy]

16 is no twin. He is a robot with an A.I. Lapis and Lazuli are the twins. And yes, there are twins like that that exist which is the very reason why they can have a different gender and other different traits in the first place.

Those are false twins. That happens when the mother had two ovum released that month and both got fertilized and 9 months later the "twins" are born, but they are basically just regular brothers. That's why that can be different and have different gender and all that.

True twins happens when an ovum is fertilized but afterwards splits into two instead of remaining just one.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I believe that when an artist releases his or her work out into the world, they have to take responsibility for it, and part of that responsibility should be an acceptance of the fact that it may influence the lives of others. Toriyama's extensive work on Dragonball has spawned a considerably large fanbase who know his work inside out, and in many cases, literally live and breathe Dragonball. It is a huge part of people's lives, and as such retrospective changes to a considerable body of work with its own complex lore should be treat delicately as a basic consideration, not only to his fans, but also to the legacy of his own creation. So for Toriyama to carelessly throw out content in little Q&A features that heavily contradicts a complex work that is revered the world over is a practice that I don't regard as being a particularly good one..

I think Blade means that there should be more responsibility in his effort to make sure everything lines up with the story, and if hes giving the fans enough of what they expect rather than just passively scribbling things out for what he himself wants. Fan reception is the bulk of a product's success, he may not know himself of the negative reception but only because he isnt being informed or advised but just confirming things on the spot with no reference at all. Then creating more messes. With video games at least having more tools to edit mistakes with, if a story's ending fails the audience and following then you have failed them. They have the right to outcry for better until they just drop the story entirely. Hence mass-effect's revised ending. I get that Toriyama can't fix anything he messes up now at this point but he should at least keep track of what hes doing somewhere. That he admits to never doing and it shows. At least have an index or wiki at hand or in his pocket before irrationally confirming what should be altered, he needs to remember the basis of what hes changing first. All of what he tends to do sounds more like draft material now adays rather than intertable ideas, though only because the series is done.

I mean, sure - his memory isn't great. We all know that - and most importantly so does he. So I think that owing to this, he ought to either reacquaint himself with his work to the point of being informed enough to make new in-universe statements without contradiction, or at least recognise his shortcomings and opt to not put new stuff out there that could clash.

His fans have made him a very wealthy man and allowed him to have a wonderful career, so I think that frankly he owes us that much.

Problem is he cant get anyone else to write it because unless he does it himself nobody will buy it with fair merit. The whole motivation I see to why fans claims to despise GT is because they know Toriyama didnt write it and thus all bets are off. I bet if it was ther other way around and fans did like it, it would be canon.

Like why 17 and 16 have different natural haircolours for being twins.

That has to be explained?
Should read that. Ever heard or met a pair of Fraternal Twins?

I do actually and considered that even when typing the question. However its a type of question that wouldnt really make a difference to the characters; but something Toriyama would probably answer ridiculously anyway along the lines of "17 likes his hair black so that he wouldnt be confused with 18 in public" or something. Then that would be a heading under his bio the next day.

Because Toriyama contradicting his own story on every given occasion is totally subjective and may be considered a good thing. Please...

I agree it isnt subjective if it doesnt make sense. Toriyama could very well say next that Piccolo is really a Saiyan. It wouldn't be subjective at all to how wrong this is.

[rereboy]

I think Blade means that there should be more responsibility in his effort to make sure everything lines up with the story, and if hes giving the fans enough of what they expect rather than just passively scribbling things out for what he himself wants. Fan reception is the bulk of a product's success, he may not know himself of the negative reception but only because he isnt being informed or advised but just confirming things on the spot with no reference at all. Then creating more messes. With video games at least having more tools to edit mistakes with, if a story's ending fails the audience and following then you have failed them. They have the right to outcry for better until they just drop the story entirely. Hence mass-effect's revised ending. I get that Toriyama can't fix anything he messes up now at this point but he should at least keep track of what hes doing somewhere. That he admits to never doing and it shows. At least have an index or wiki at hand or in his pocket before irrationally confirming what should be altered, he needs to remember the basis of what hes changing first. All of what he tends to do sounds more like draft material now adays rather than intertable ideas, though only because the series is done.

They have a right to publicly not like it, to criticize it and even be disappointed. Not to argue that the author "owes" them something or that he should "take responsibility".

Also, you misquoted me. I wasn't the one who stated that.

[RandomGuy96]

While the newest Q and As didn't contain anything as bad as Twel-Buu one, they also didn't contain anything really worthwhile, and another pointless retcon (Babidi not actually being Bibidi's son, even though the actual manga said he was Bibidi's son).

[Kid Buu]

Didn't Toriyama say he re-read the entire manga recently? Because it doesn't feel that way.

[Blade]

Didn't Toriyama say he re-read the entire manga recently? Because it doesn't feel that way.

He did? I recall him saying that when writing Battle of Gods, he had to go back to check some things, but I don't think he said he re-read the whole thing.

[Karrit]

I think there was a better place to post this, but I've been looking around and I don't seem to find it, so I think I'll just say it here.

Toriyama says in the last Q&A that Mr. Satan's late wife's name was MIGUEL, being a reference to the Archangel.
Wasn't there anyone around to tell him that Miguel is a real legitimate MALE ONLY name?

Yep. Male only name. Kinda like Ashley. And Taylor. And Ronny. And Sam. And Chris.

So, no, for all the things Toriyama has been doing lately that have annoyed me, giving a woman the name Miguel is not going to be one of them.

Michael is a female name too, but it's spelled, Michal. One of King David's wives was named that in the Bible.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't Toriyama say he re-read the entire manga recently? Because it doesn't feel that way.

I wouldn't say so.

He is aware that he changed Boo's origin, and he seems to be aware that he changed the relation between Bibidi & Babidi. The only contradiction that there is in his interviews is the Kaioshin thing (3 according to him, 5 according to manga). But even this could have been intentional, because why would Kaioshin say to another Kaioshin "in my era, there were five Kaioshin"? Why is it "in my era"? Why would he have to explain this in another, more experienced Kaioshin if the Kaioshin are 5 normally? It sounds like our Kaioshin's era was an exception and got 5 Kaioshin, and if we go by Toriyama's explanation, the Kaioshin are normally 3, not 5.

DB- doesn't have any plot-holes, only intentional changes as well.

BoG does have a few, but even those are debatable. There is Bulma's & Mai's ages that are wrong, but they could be lying because they are women. There is Kaio's planet, but thanks to the Special Edition, we learn that he rebuilt it in that size because he liked it. There is SS Gohan (who is obviously not stronger than U. Gohan), but no one ever said that Gohan can never turn Super Saiyan again. There is Pilaf only getting 1 wish from the DBs, but this could be because the 2 out of 3 wishes are already granted since Boo arc (first was to revive the people killed in the Budokai, second was to erase the memories of Fat Boo, this would be the 3rd). And there is Mr. Satan forgetting who Dende is, but thanks to the Special Edition, we learn that Mr. Satan is actually drunk. Plus, there is nothing that places SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta above U. Gohan & SS(3) Gotenks.

So, even though Toriyama is known to be forgetful, he doesn't seem to be that much forgetful recently.

[hleV]

He is aware that he changed Boo's origin, and he seems to be aware that he changed the relation between Bibidi & Babidi. The only contradiction that there is in his interviews is the Kaioshin thing (3 according to him, 5 according to manga). But even this could have been intentional, because why would Kaioshin say to another Kaioshin "in my era, there were five Kaioshin"? Why is it "in my era"? Why would he have to explain this in another, more experienced Kaioshin if the Kaioshin are 5 normally? It sounds like our Kaioshin's era was an exception and got 5 Kaioshin, and if we go by Toriyama's explanation, the Kaioshin are normally 3, not 5.

Why is Elder Kaioshin the Eastern Kaioshin from many generations ago? If he's the Eastern Kaioshin, then logic tells us that there must have been Southern, Western and Northern Kaioshins in his era as well. Unless there's two Kaioshins that oversee one half of the universe (East + one other) while the Dai Kaioshin oversees the rest?
Anyway, for there to be 5 Kaioshins in Eastern Kaioshin's era, one male-type Kaioshin must have mated with the female-type Kaioshin and had two babies! Or they felt like they need more Kaioshins due to the threat of Boo. Or there were more golden fruits for some reason. No, the babies theory is the best.

There is Pilaf only getting 1 wish from the DBs, but this could be because the 2 out of 3 wishes are already granted since Boo arc (first was to revive the people killed in the Budokai, second was to erase the memories of Fat Boo, this would be the 3rd).

Doesn't Shenlong only grant 2 wishes?

Also while we know that Gotenks is a cocky brat, we saw him putting in enough effort when he knows that the opponent is really strong. In BOG, Gotenks didn't go SS3 against an opponent who KO'd Ultimate Gohan in seconds.

[sintzu]

Doesn't Shenlong only grant 2 wishes?

Maby mr.popo and dende changed it to 1 so they can use them more then once a year

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why is Elder Kaioshin the Eastern Kaioshin from many generations ago?

Doesn't this come from the guidebooks and not from the manga?

Anyway, for there to be 5 Kaioshins in Eastern Kaioshin's era, one male-type Kaioshin must have mated with the female-type Kaioshin and had two babies! Or they felt like they need more Kaioshins due to the threat of Boo. Or there were more golden fruits for some reason. No, the babies theory is the best.

Normally, when a woman gives birth to a child, only one baby is born. But in some cases, there may be 2 babies, or 3, or even 7. Same thing with the Kaioshin, there are normally 3 golden fruits born from the Kaiju, but in rare cases, there could be more (5 in this case).

Doesn't Shenlong only grant 2 wishes?

He grants 2 wishes if the first wish is used to revive a big amount of people, otherwise, it grants 3 wishes. Dende said that the DBs would be active after 4 months (1/3 of the year), so this leads me to believe that the amount of people that died in the Budokai wasn't big enough to use 2 wishes.

Also while we know that Gotenks is a cocky brat, we saw him putting in enough effort when he knows that the opponent is really strong. In BOG, Gotenks didn't go SS3 against an opponent who KO'd Ultimate Gohan in seconds.

This is the same guy that thought that he could beat Fat Boo in base, and the same guy that thought that he could hurt Evil Boo in base & SS after his 1-week training, even though he knew he was weaker than him as a SS before the training. He is so stupid that he may had thought that he had grown stronger than Gohan after 4 years, or he wanted to use the same strategy he wanted to use in Boo (weaken him as a SS for 25 minutes, and then use the last 5 minutes to finish him as a SS3).