Would Z have been as successful on US TV if JPN BGM was kept

[Cure Dragon 255]

Rule of Thumb: Saban is ALWAYS screwing people out of their money. Make no Mistake.

[Blade]

Wait, what's the whole deal with Saban screwing people out of music royalties?

The accusation is that the choice to replace the score, thus creating a revenue stream for Levi via royalties that would otherwise have gone to Kikuchi if his score was retained, was unfair.

In fairness, Kikuchi wasn't entitled to anything unless his score was used. It wasn't. I don't see that as screwing anyone out of anything.

[Cure Dragon 255]

He meant Shuki Levi. He composed the score along with Saban.

Also, I do have to admit I'm a huge hypocrite. While I did say that I feel Toonami didnt have much effect on non-English Speaking Countries...I'm ALWAYS obsessed with what Toonami does next. Because I still hang on to the hope that they might bring back anime for other countries. So far, the only series we have that airs on Toonami USA is DBZKai,and we (Latin America) had that even when Nicktoons had it. In fact, Latin America used the Nicktoons version of the Funi dub as basis for its dubbed version.

[Kakacarrottop]

He meant Shuki Levi. He composed the score along with Saban.

For starters it's "Shuki Levy" not "Shuki Levi". Surely after 20 or so years of discussing this guy's work on the show we could bother to spell his name correctly. Secondly, i'm almost certain Haim Saban had no involvement whatsoever with that score. He was a credited composer (as Kussa Mahehi) but he was also falsely credited on like one million other 80s/90s shows along with Levy, the reason being so he could collect music licensing fees or something like that - that's one of the ways he became a multi billionaire. I'm sure he was much more preoccupied with running his company rather than with composing the music for some unknown Japanese cartoon being adapted by a startup anime company.

[fadeddreams5]

I haven't read this entire topic, but I will say that the series would have very likely been just as popular. I don't think kids (intended demographic) pay too much attention to BGM--at least, not over the actual substance of the show.

When I was a kid, I used to buy bootleg VHS tapes that had Japanese episodes from the Android and Buu sagas at a time when they were airing the Namek saga in the US. I didn't like the music in the Japanese version at all (or Goku's voice), and figured it was like that because the show aired many years prior in Japan. This was BEFORE Faulconer even replaced the score in between the Ginyu Force battle. In other words, even though I never payed much mind to the BGM from the original Ocean dub, I straight up disliked Kikuchi's score. But did this stop me from buying more bootlegs and enjoying the subbed version? NO! I still loved the characters, the villains, the action, the art, and so on! That said, it did make me anticipate the English version of those subbed episodes more.

I became a fan of Faulconer's music AFTER I had already been exposed to Kikuchi's soundtrack. It was the first time I found myself wanting to re-watch scenes just for the music, such as the Ginyu Force theme that played when Goku fought Ginyu, Burter, and Jeice. The theme that plays when Goku goes SSJ for the first time gave me chills. The music that plays during Gohan's beam struggle with Cell MAKES that scene for me. It made me love DBZ more, but even before it, I already loved the series.

[Cure Dragon 255]

He meant Shuki Levi. He composed the score along with Saban.

For starters it's "Shuki Levy" not "Shuki Levi". Surely after 20 or so years of discussing this guy's work on the show we could bother to spell his name correctly. Secondly, i'm almost certain Haim Saban had no involvement whatsoever with that score. He was a credited composer (as Kussa Mahehi) but he was also falsely credited on like one million other 80s/90s shows along with Levy, the reason being so he could collect music licensing fees or something like that - that's one of the ways he became a multi billionaire. I'm sure he was much more preoccupied with running his company rather than with composing the music for some unknown Japanese cartoon being adapted by a startup anime company.

One Letter and you already feel the need to yell at me. ONE. I'm actually quite new to the whole DBZ OST thing. I do know Shuki Levy from Power Rangers and all but it was just one letter. GOD.

But thanks for the info. If you didnt take your time to to be rude this post would be awesome.

[ABED]

Blade, I'm not talking about today's market AT ALL. I have no idea what the market is like today, I just know that trends need to start somewhere and FUNi could just as easily been at the forefront of keeping music and only dubbing it to get the intended meaning of the story across. I think the music works with the visuals in telling the story and it would've appealed to just as many people because ultimately what people watch the show for was the action, the humor, and the characters. I thought I understood your argument, but now I have no idea in the least what you are talking about. And clearly you don't understand me either

You're actually arguing that the market for subtitled Anime at that time could even resemble what it is today in terms of size?

I never brought anything like this up. I'm not talking about the popularity for subtitled anime. Where did this even come from in your mind? The things that are appealing about DBZ are the same as they always were. The popularity of subtitled anime has zero to do with what I'm arguing.

It reads like you're saying that the natural gut instinct for anyone would be to do the wholesome and pure thing of keeping the original the way it was.

I never implied that, all I said was doing things by your gut means not reading studies and doing what you think feels right for the artwork as a whole not because you read a study that said kids in a target demo prefer a certain type of score or simply going with the industry standards.

Maybe for you - but you're a fan of the franchise! The way in which you see and interact with the source material is worlds apart, you can't even begin to transpose your own inklings onto what Fukunaga and co. were thinking as though they're some sort of global constant or universally shared moral value.

That's so not true. If you own a company like FUNi, I would assume you get into the market not simply to make a profit, but because the product appeals to you on some level, why not an artistic one. I've taken business courses as well and read plenty of bios on executives. Creativity, art, and craftsmanship need not be at odds with commerce.

That's not even what we're debating, they didn't have to replace it so much as I don't have to eat my greens. Arguing against doing something simply because you don't have to is bordering on nihilism, and undermines practically any line of decision making in anything.

WHAT!? What does this even mean? You keep bringing up how they made a rational decision to appeal to their target audience, but I'm arguing that it's not immediately obvious just by the fact that they made money that is in fact the case. There's no way to say with certainty whether either of us are right. At best we can conjecture. Your point about context is just as intuitive as mine. I've seen plenty of people go belly up trying to appeal to their audience and plenty of companies do well because they made a product they believed in. What does nihilism have to do with anything that I wrote?

[Kakacarrottop]

He meant Shuki Levi. He composed the score along with Saban.

For starters it's "Shuki Levy" not "Shuki Levi". Surely after 20 or so years of discussing this guy's work on the show we could bother to spell his name correctly. Secondly, i'm almost certain Haim Saban had no involvement whatsoever with that score. He was a credited composer (as Kussa Mahehi) but he was also falsely credited on like one million other 80s/90s shows along with Levy, the reason being so he could collect music licensing fees or something like that - that's one of the ways he became a multi billionaire. I'm sure he was much more preoccupied with running his company rather than with composing the music for some unknown Japanese cartoon being adapted by a startup anime company.

One Letter and you already feel the need to yell at me. ONE. I'm actually quite new to the whole DBZ OST thing. I do know Shuki Levy from Power Rangers and all but it was just one letter. GOD.

But thanks for the info. If you didnt take your time to to be rude this post would be awesome.

You're basically doing the same thing with this post. Calm down. Btw i wasn't just addressing you.

[Attitudefan]

French Vegeta has really horrible voice.

Oh, really? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gewwo8iLXcY Sorry, I had to reply to that comment.

Since I can understand French pretty damn well , despite me being listed here as English only, I can communicate in French. Vegeta's voice was pretty wicked. Krillin had a bit to be desired and Piccolo was decent, but I really like French Vegeta in Kai.

[foxfang4]

Just to add my 2 cents. When I first saw DBZ, I loved both North American scores (the Canadian score, and then the Faulconer score). But, the first time I had ever heard the Japanese score was during Movies 1, 2 and 3. And I loved it. Like most, I didn't even know that was the original score. I just figured they went "fancy" with the movies. But I remember actually thinking the Kikuchi score was amazing, even as a 9-10 year old.

So, yeah, I think it's possible that DBZ would have still been huge with Kikuchi. FUNI just didn't want to risk it. And that's still understandable.

[GS7X7]

Even back when I was a dub fanboy the movies were all my favorites to watch.

Course, that included the TV Specials which all had great music to em. But this was before Movie 4 came out. Movie 4's dub music kinda sucked.

[Kakacarrottop]

When i watched Dead Zone as a little child i thought the music was bland, boring and outdated, and now years later after having seen the Japanese version i still think that. Keep in mind i didn't care for the TV music when i was younger either, i thought the Faulconer score just sounded like depressing techno (still think that) and the Saban music just sounded like Power Rangers & droning guitar riffs to me. Oh and don't get me started on the Menza "music" and god-awful featured metal bands.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

I don't think it would have been as successful because it didn't fit the U.S. style. Back in those days we constantly had new scores for Americanized shows that are more action-y and fast. I'm bad at explaining it but there is no need. From the Dragon Ball Wiki:

Faulconer's music is attributed to have had a favorable impact on the television ratings for Dragon Ball Z while the version aired on Cartoon Network. The third season of Dragon Ball Z, with the debut of Faulconer's music, ratings for the show soared, and Dragon Ball Z soon received ratings as the Nielsen Number One Rated Show in Children's Programming for Cable TV (awarded 3 times, from 2001-2003) for Cartoon Network programming. In 2003, the Nielsen ratings continued to soar for Dragon Ball Z as it became the Number One Rated Show for all of Cable TV for Children's Programming in six market demographics.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Bruce_ ... gon_Ball_Z

Something people don't realize until they truly think about it is that music/sound is the most important aspect of any TV show/movie. The man with the boom mic makes or breaks the film more than the one who places sound effects/music in. Since Dragon Ball was animated and there was no boom mic, that means that the person who scored the music (recording voice actors doesn't count here) has the most important part of it. It's been said on Kanzenshuu's "Animation Styles Guide" that "Dragon Ball was and always will be a cheaply produced animated adaptation."¹ But we deal with it - despite that we all love the show whether the score is by Kikuchi, Faulconer, Yamamoto, or Sumitomo because the music adds extra for us. If it had no music or a score we didn't like then, combined with the animation, we most likely wouldn't be fans and the show would've flopped.

So what's my point? The style of Kikuchi's score simply did not fit Western demographics in any way, shape, or form. It was slow, not fast/flashy/action-y, and there were plenty of quiet scenes where music didn't play at all. Does that sound like it would grab the attention of kids to you guys? Faulconer came in with his style of music and helped make it a major part of many fans' childhoods. Even today I like Dragon Ball Z Kai less because of Yamamoto's score or worse, Sumitomo's.² The only thing worse than that is Kikuchi's music which in my opinion is a musical holocaust and shows that the man had no talent or any idea whatsoever of where to place music and that an intern could've done better than him.³

Part of me wonders why they don't change the score in the U.S. to something like Faulconer's or get a new musician to score Kai. It obviously would help the ratings, especially now that Kikuchi's score contaminates Kai.

¹ http://www.kanzenshuu.com/animation-styles/
² As someone else pointed out on here, Kai 2.0 had no sponsors, less money, yadda yadda yadda and therefore Sumitomo made less music. It's easy to see since Yamamoto had four albums of music for Kai 1.0 (a fifth was cancelled in wake of his termination) whereas Sumitomo only has one with 33 tracks for Kai 2.0 (give or take a few).
³ Nathan Johnson scored season 1 & 2 of Dragon Ball Z after FUNimation got rid of Faulconer. He never really scored anything else and is now a lawyer, but even he's better than Kikuchi. A recent interview with him (was linked on the main page) had him say that with someone else he worked with, fans loved the score for Fusion Reborn.

[kei17]

Faulconer's music is attributed to have had a favorable impact on the television ratings for Dragon Ball Z while the version aired on Cartoon Network. The third season of Dragon Ball Z, with the debut of Faulconer's music, ratings for the show soared, and Dragon Ball Z soon received ratings as the Nielsen Number One Rated Show in Children's Programming for Cable TV (awarded 3 times, from 2001-2003) for Cartoon Network programming. In 2003, the Nielsen ratings continued to soar for Dragon Ball Z as it became the Number One Rated Show for all of Cable TV for Children's Programming in six market demographics.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Bruce_ ... gon_Ball_Z

Typical DB wiki bullshit. The boost in the ratings doesn't directly indicate anything about music. Never refer to that site when you seriously look at Dragon Ball.

[funrush]

I'm leaning towards no but who knows. I think the dub and the music really enhanced the show for American kids. To them it had deeper, more macho-y voices, and this badass synth soundtrack. If something closer to the Japanese version aired instead, I wouldn't immediately outrule it, but the dub/soundtrack we got didn't necessarily hurt.

[Kakacarrottop]

Faulconer's music is attributed to have had a favorable impact on the television ratings for Dragon Ball Z while the version aired on Cartoon Network. The third season of Dragon Ball Z, with the debut of Faulconer's music, ratings for the show soared, and Dragon Ball Z soon received ratings as the Nielsen Number One Rated Show in Children's Programming for Cable TV (awarded 3 times, from 2001-2003) for Cartoon Network programming. In 2003, the Nielsen ratings continued to soar for Dragon Ball Z as it became the Number One Rated Show for all of Cable TV for Children's Programming in six market demographics.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Bruce_ ... gon_Ball_Z

That whole site is full of biased Faulconer fanboys

[ABED]

I don't think it would have been as successful because it didn't fit the U.S. style.

Maybe you don't remember what it was like back then, but anime was already starting to become popular in America. There's no proof that a Japanese score for a Japanese score wouldn't have appealed to the changing tastes of young Americans.

Faulconer came in with his style of music and helped make it a major part of many fans' childhoods.

DBZ was already a hit after it first aired on Cartoon Network. Are you honestly claiming that music is more important than the action, humor, and voice performances? The animation may be "cheap" but that's relative, and look at it in comparison to cartoons of the time in the US.

The style of Kikuchi's score simply did not fit Western demographics in any way, shape, or form. It was slow, not fast/flashy/action-y, and there were plenty of quiet scenes where music didn't play at all. Does that sound like it would grab the attention of kids to you guys?

The same could be said of Batman The animated series. It broke a lot of rules of children's programming. It had a beautiful orchestral score that wasn't all about the ACTION, and yet it was a massive hit with kids. The score also had moments of silence.

[Eire]

The style of Kikuchi's score simply did not fit Western demographics in any way, shape, or form.

OK, I'm used to people mistaking Poland and Russia, but lumping whole Europe as not "Western"?

[Big Momma]

I'm wondering why American kids are seen as different from kids in other parts of the world, where the original score did just fine.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'm wondering why American kids are seen as different from kids in other parts of the world, where the original score did just fine.

Well, I gave some thoughts on that earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat (and shorten) them here.

Regardless of how fair this is (or isn't), I think American kids are seen as different from kids in other parts of the world because America is not really known as a place where movies and TV shows from other countries are giant hints. Sure, we get a foreign film here and there that's a hit (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon), but that's not particularly common. On the other hand, other countries get their cinematic content from all over the world (in both dubbed and subtitled format). As just one example, every year countries from around the world are used to getting a new Disney movie. Our stuff is on their screens all the time.

So, other countries appear to be more open to receiving movies and shows from other countries, because they're used to it. The same cannot be said for America.