DBZ vs DBS - Animation [Comparing Objectively]

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but the old-school style isn't going to work with the modern animation nowadays.

What do you mean by this exactly? An art-style is not intrinsically bound to the tools used. The style didn't change because the animation is done digitally, it changed because Yamamuro's personal art style changed.

There's no reason the characters couldn't still be drawn in the old style (or, more accurately, one of the number of variations of style that appeared in the original run) in the modern animation.

I meant the color choices in the original run of old TV series to be used on the modern animation. It isn't going to work really well.

[ErikB]

I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but the old-school style isn't going to work with the modern animation nowadays.

What do you mean by this exactly? An art-style is not intrinsically bound to the tools used. The style didn't change because the animation is done digitally, it changed because Yamamuro's personal art style changed.

There's no reason the characters couldn't still be drawn in the old style (or, more accurately, one of the number of variations of style that appeared in the original run) in the modern animation.

I meant the color choices in the original run of old TV series to be used on the modern animation. It isn't going to work really well.

OK...what do you mean by that? Why isn't it going to work? What do you mean by "work"?

[Hellspawn28]

Since the Budokai 2 intro, it seems like modern DB animation have been using more brighter use of colors. It seems like it has been like that for most anime since the start of the mid 2000's. Not to mention, younger anime fans these days like their anime to be bright and shinny as possible. I prefer the more darker use of colors used in older anime from the 80's and 90's.

[VejituhTheWarriorGuy]

Can someone please tell me who the Animation Director and Color Designer were for Yo Son Goku! and why they aren't the head honchos for the series nowadays?

[Ajay]

Can someone please tell me who the Animation Director and Color Designer were for Yo Son Goku! and why they aren't the head honchos for the series nowadays?

The colour designer was Kunio Tsujita who worked in the colour department for many of the Dragon Ball Z films. He left to work on several One Piece films, Ping Pong, and some Sailor Moon stuff. Going by his credits, he seems hugely sought after in the industry.

Bunji Sawada took over after that, and I believe he was was the first to bring in the bright bold colours we have today with Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans and Episode of Bardock. After that, Teppei Hotta popped up in Battle of Gods and played colour designer right through until the beginning of Future Trunks arc where Yoshitaka Katou took over. Hotta seems to have returned to One Piece now.

The animation supervisor for the JSAT special was Tadayoshi Yamamuro. It's always Yamamuro. He's supervised every bit of modern Dragon Ball animation aside from Xenoverse's opening which was done by Takeo Ide. The reason the JSAT special looks so different is partly because they weren't using 100% new designs. Thanks to the character design leaks from that special, we know they re-purposed several Z designs, with the newer ones only really applying to a few key characters. Another reason is that the rest of the staff on that project were literally all the top-tier guys from Dragon Ball Z, right down to the director.

It was a very unique (and probably very expensive) case, and not something that's likely to ever happen again. A lot of these staff members are now all over the place on various other projects. That's not to say we don't have some of those talents, we do have Ide, Tate, Shimanuki, Karasawa etc, but the visual direction of the series is in a totally different place than it was back then, and I just don't see it ever going back.

[VejituhTheWarriorGuy]

Can someone please tell me who the Animation Director and Color Designer were for Yo Son Goku! and why they aren't the head honchos for the series nowadays?

The colour designer was Kunio Tsujita who worked in the colour department for many of the Dragon Ball Z films. He left to work on several One Piece films, Ping Pong, and some Sailor Moon stuff. Going by his credits, he seems hugely sought after in the industry.

Bunji Sawada took over after that, and I believe he was was the first to bring in the bright bold colours we have today with Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans and Episode of Bardock. After that, Teppei Hotta popped up in Battle of Gods and played colour designer right through until the beginning of Future Trunks arc where Yoshitaka Katou took over. Hotta seems to have returned to One Piece now.

The animation supervisor for the JSAT special was Tadayoshi Yamamuro. It's always Yamamuro. He's supervised every bit of modern Dragon Ball animation aside from Xenoverse's opening which was done by Takeo Ide. The reason the JSAT special looks so different is partly because they weren't using 100% new designs. Thanks to the character design leaks from that special, we know they re-purposed several Z designs, with the newer ones only really applying to a few key characters. Another reason is that the rest of the staff on that project were literally all the top-tier guys from Dragon Ball Z, right down to the director.

It was a very unique (and probably very expensive) case, and not something that's likely to ever happen again. A lot of these staff members are now all over the place on various other projects. That's not to say we don't have some of those talents, we do have Ide, Tate, Shimanuki, Karasawa etc, but the visual direction of the series is in a totally different place than it was back then, and I just don't see it ever going back.

That sucks because Yo Son Goku looks so good and Super looks so plastic and fake. I get that it was an OVA but with that animation, Super could look better than it does now.

[Quantum-Kakarrotto]

What Dragon Ball Super's animation is missing for me is the atmosphere and emotion that the original DBZ animation style had. For example, when Trunks had the flashbacks to the Trunks special and it was redone with Super animation, that whole sequence just felt so flat and boring compared to the original that had so much dept and emotion that it just made you want to cry with Trunks when Gohan died. Also the animation for Super looks so cheaply made and all those great moments with great animation really just ranks up to an average episode of Z. The last time Dragon Ball had good animation besides the movies in my opinion was the 2008 special. I loved the animation from that special and I wish we could have gotten more of that style, it felt like a great combination of the classic Z animation and the new style of animation that newer animes use.

[sintzu]

I loved the animation from that special and I wish we could have gotten more of that style, it felt like a great combination of the classic Z animation and the new style of animation that newer animes use.

I was also hoping we'd get more of that cause like you said, it had the classic feel of the original mixed with modern technology.

But why put in the effort to do that when it's easier to make something so cheap that it looks fan made ?

The character models are also a complete mess.

[Quantum-Kakarrotto]

I loved the animation from that special and I wish we could have gotten more of that style, it felt like a great combination of the classic Z animation and the new style of animation that newer animes use.

I was also hoping we'd get more of that cause like you said, it had the classic feel of the original mixed with modern technology.

But why put in the effort to do that when it's easier to make something so cheap that it looks fan made ?

Yes, but it's not just Dragon Ball Super that Toei is cutting animation on, almost all their animes are having the same problem that Super is concerning the animation quality. Its like Toei is just trying to piss off the fans and give them cheaply made quality unlike other companies that give their animes great animation.

The only good thing about Toei is that they don't stoop to this level of bad animation.

[sintzu]

Its like Toei is just trying to piss off the fans and give them cheaply made quality unlike other companies that give their animes great animation.

The only good thing about Toei is that they don't stoop to this level of bad animation.

At least one piece's story and writing make up for the animation which based on what I read isn't as bad as Super's but it definitely has problems.

Yet.

[Wezenheim]

Yes, but it's not just Dragon Ball Super that Toei is cutting animation on, almost all their animes are having the same problem that Super is concerning the animation quality. Its like Toei is just trying to piss off the fans and give them cheaply made quality unlike other companies that give their animes great animation.

The only good thing about Toei is that they don't stoop to this level of bad animation.

That Naruto vs. Pain fight is not poorly animated. You could argue that it is perhaps poorly stylized (I personally don't like that particular segment myself) but not poorly animated. Dragon Ball has and probably never will reach the animation production that Naruto has for a fair amount of episodes. That's coming from someone who doesn't care much for Naruto anymore.

[Avok]

The only good thing about Toei is that they don't stoop to this level of bad animation.

That Naruto episode blows away everything Super has had so far. You can say you don't like the over exaggerated animation, but everything else in that episode is amazing.

I'd take that over what Toei give us any day.

[Ajay]

Two things: I'm not really sure where this thread is going. Do we want to talk about Super's character designs or its animation? The two certainly aren't inseparable, but everything I've gathered so far is that fans seem to take more issues with the colour and character design than any animation issues the series suffers from. Might be best to actually settle on that before moving further.

Secondly, that Naruto clip isn't badly animated, and it's comments regarding Shingo Yamashita's work on that fight that make me question what exactly fans think good animation actually is. Yamashita's a magnificent web-gen animator who has become one of the most respected figures in the industry at such a young age. Extravagant effects, minimalist art, and abstract movement make his work stand far above anything you'd usually find in an action series. He's a master of his craft.

His work is some of the most outstanding that Shippuuden has ever seen:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Do fans want good animation that breaks conventions and actually does something interesting, or do they want on-model by-the-numbers work? Given the responses I've seen towards the aforementioned example and Tate's work on Super, my guess is the latter. You only have to look at how many people love Super #13 and #39 to see that's very clearly the case. That's fine, but let's actually be honest about that, and not put down good work because it dares to be different. That doesn't really do anything other than embarrass everyone involved and create conflict.

On a personal note, I have to say it really does baffle me that the community talks so much about how they wish Super could look like One-Punch Man. Is that really what this fan base wants? One-Punch Man used a number of web-gen animators like Yamashita who went into full berserk mode and started exaggerating hulking giants into wibbly wobbly jelly.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

It took characters and turned them into detail-less blobs in beautiful cuts filled with background animation and gorgeous brush-stroke effects. It was so successful because it took great talents and let them run wild for 12 consistent episodes. No restrictions, just pure unrestrained animation.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

That's fantastic work, but that's clearly not what I see a majority of people pining for. In a long-running series where episodes can't look fantastic for 12 episodes at a time, it seems fans don't actually want outstanding animation, they want familiar and safe animation that is rigidly on-model every single week. Rather than breaking the mould, and daring to be different, it seems that there's a push for mediocre and dated work akin to the majority of Resurrection 'F' and Z. If that is the case, and it sure seems like it is, then I simply cannot fathom why on earth anyone would want Super to look like One-Punch Man. The same goes for Fullmetal Alchemist and all of the other examples that are continually brought up. Their highlights are all about breaking conventions and doing so incredibly well:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I see the comments every single time Tate does an episode, and I think that says it all, really. Outstanding animation is clearly not what this fan base as a whole is after. You know what, that's fine -- depressing, but fine -- but again, can we just be honest about that? Throwing out absurdly ignorant comments about the quality of perfectly good work simply because it's different is just such a waste. Let's maybe not do that.

I can totally appreciate that Super is not a good-looking show, so there's plenty of reason to want better, but just where do you draw the line? Clearly it's not the route of current trends, so what is it? Do you want ground-breaking animation or do you want good-but-safe work?

[sintzu]

Do you want ground-breaking animation or do you want good-but-safe work?

It's a weekly show so I don't think we should expect anything ground breaking from it but that doesn't excuse it to be as poor as it is.

I'd just like to get something that's on par with the original's quality.

Super's animation feels very unnatural and unfinished, for example when Goku charges his Ki sometimes his belt is stuck in the air or when there are multiple characters on screen just one's mouth will be moving and everything else will be stuck in time, no one blinks, moves or does anything.

This also applies to the environments, they seems lifeless and bland.

I know Toei's on a tight schedule due to the amount of shows they make but if the result is everything being mediocre to bad then they need to stop production on some shows and focus on the big ones like Super and One Piece.

[Avok]

What I truly appreciated about OPM were the scenes like this:

[spoiler]
Powering up ki.


This is totally a kamehameha.


This matches perfectly with...
[/spoiler]

Those scenes scream Dragon Ball, and yet DB is far from that, even in the movies.

[Quantum-Kakarrotto]

Do you want ground-breaking animation or do you want good-but-safe work?

It's a weekly show so I don't think we should expect anything ground breaking from it but that doesn't excuse it to be as poor as it is.

I'd just like to get something that's on par with the original's quality.

Super's animation feels very unnatural and unfinished, for example when Goku charges his Ki sometimes his belt is stuck in the air or when there are multiple characters on screen just one's mouth will be moving and everything else will be stuck in time, no one blinks, moves or does anything.

This also applies to the environments, they seems lifeless and bland.

I know Toei's on a tight schedule due to the amount of shows they make but if the result is everything being mediocre to bad then they need to stop production on some shows and focus on the big ones like Super and One Piece.

What I truly appreciated about OPM were the scenes like this:

[spoiler]
Powering up ki.


This is totally a kamehameha.


This matches perfectly with...
[/spoiler]

Those scenes scream Dragon Ball, and yet DB is far from that, even in the movies.

I also don't expect any ground breaking animation unless they change Dragon Ball Super to a yearly season anime like others. But what I do expect is at least decent animation that should look good every episode and not have anything looking off model or cheap, and to feel and look like Dragon Ball. If anything, I'll at least take animation quality that Episode of Bardock used since thats what Toei is trying to match.

[Nejishiki]

I think a yearly production would be a nice compromise in hindsight. We'd have well-planned stories and production every summer (I'm basing this on Dragon Ball Super being released in July 2015)! If anything else, it would be a replacement for the time-limited films after witnessing a revival of Dragon Ball could be successful today.

[Quantum-Kakarrotto]

I think a yearly production would be a nice compromise in hindsight. We'd have well-planned stories and production every summer (I'm basing this on Dragon Ball Super being released in July 2015)! If anything else, it would be a replacement for the time-limited films after witnessing a revival of Dragon Ball could be successful today.

I agree, I rather have a season of Dragon Ball Super once a year with good animation, story telling, and acting over what we have now. Not to bash on any of the voice cast, Nozawa and everyone else are still awesome in Super, but their are times we know they can do better.

[Lookerman]

At this point, I'm not entirely expecting OPM-quality animation from Super, I just want them to make the characters not look like they're about to melt in the worst possible way. Or Toei just making everyone do nothing for minutes at a time.

I just want something serviceable at this point, then we'll talk about going from there. I get that it's a weekly show, but even the bad/unimpressive-looking ones tend to look a million times better than what Super has to offer.

[Ajay]

Just to clarify, my point was not to ask people, "Do fans want better animation for Super" since that answer is obvious, but rather, "If Super did receive top-tier work, would it actually be appreciated considering the reaction to a lot of this stuff?"

It's, "Do fans actually want those type of visuals in a show like Dragon Ball or are they after a nostalgia trip, even if that doesn't add up to what's considered anything special by today's industry?"

I ask this because, as outlined above, reactions to unique animators like Tate and Shida have been mixed. I've seen posts about how Shida's cut in Battle of Gods is too flashy, and how 'modern beams' (Karasawa and Takahashi's work, for example) aren't 'solid' like the ones found in the original series.

All kinds of complaints about contemporary animation styles that make me wonder whether fans actually want Dragon Ball to evolve with the medium or stick to what it had back in the day. I just found it confusing since some of the same people who do say these things also ask for the series to look like X and Y, even if said series features far more abstract work than anything ever seen in Dragon Ball before.

I'm not condemning either point of view, but it's something I wonder about, and would love to see spoken about honestly. I think it would definitely help me better understand what some fans would like, since at the moment, it's all a bit confusing for me. It seems contradictory.