Theories On the Origin of Black

[HeroR]

I'm making the declaration that Black is just an undead version of the Goku that died in Trunk's timeline resurrected by Zamasu to be his servant. How the hell Zamasu can even pull off bringing back the dead will be revealed soon.

The way it is portrayed now, the relationship Black-Zamasu does not really seem one of master-slave, but more one of two guys working together. So yeah, I would put my money on Black using the dead body of that Goku,

Regarding timelines, whatever is stated in Daizenshuu, I sincerely doubt they would rely on a plot point only mentioned there to sort out all those issues. In any case, what Beerus said is that killing Zamasu should kill him in every timeline, so either he is talking rubbish or something else is at play.

I keep seeing this. What evidence is there that Black's body is undead?

[Khin]

The androids in the unseen timeline were killed/defeated by using the remote to turn them off. Cell would have never been completed to have the Cell Games.

The Daizenshuu entry only said that the original Future Trunks got the blueprints of the remote control from the 4th timeline, returned to his timeline and defeated the Androids. That's all. We don't know if they also used it to defeat the unseen timeline Androids, all of that are just pure fan speculations, unless there's another entry I'm unaware of.

The truth is that after obtaining the blueprints for the emergency stop controller in the past, Trunks returned to the future and used that to defeat them!

[HeroR]

The androids in the unseen timeline were killed/defeated by using the remote to turn them off. Cell would have never been completed to have the Cell Games.

The Daizenshuu entry only said that the original Future Trunks got the blueprints of the remote control from the 4th timeline, returned to his timeline and defeated the Androids. That's all. We don't know if they also used it to defeat the unseen timeline Androids, all of that are just pure fan speculations, unless there's another entry I'm unaware of.

The truth is that after obtaining the blueprints for the emergency stop controller in the past, Trunks returned to the future and used that to defeat them!

Even so, Trunks wouldn't have left the present for his time if the androids were still around. So chances are the androids of that timeline are dead.

[Khin]

Even so, Trunks wouldn't have left the present for his time if the androids were still around. So chances are the androids of that timeline are dead.

Cell Games happening in the 4th timeline is already a big hint that Android #17 and #18 wasn't deactivated. The guidebook entry only mentioned that Trunks obtained the blueprints from the unseen timeline and took them to his timeline, not that Trunks already got the remote control from the unseen timeline. It's possible that they had two separate blueprints and he took the other one while he left the other one to Bulma and left taking care of the Androids to them.

[HeroR]

Even so, Trunks wouldn't have left the present for his time if the androids were still around. So chances are the androids of that timeline are dead.

Cell Games happening in the 4th timeline is already a big hint that Android #17 and #18 wasn't deactivated. The guidebook entry only mentioned that Trunks obtained the blueprints from the unseen timeline and took them to his timeline, not that Trunks already got the remote control from the unseen timeline. It's possible that they had two separate blueprints and he took the other one while he left the other one to Bulma and left taking care of the Androids to them.

Again, Trunks wouldn't leave until the androids were dealt with in the past. And Cell Games couldn't happened if Cell never became complete. Especially since Cell wasn't born until past the Buu Saga.

[immakillya]

In the 4th timeline, Babidi and Dabura could have came extremely late, like they did in future trunks timeline. And 4th timeline krillin could have fallen in love with Android 18 as well, and crushed the remote shutdown. The androids in the 4th timeline were probably nice-ish like the main time line

[dragonballhero]

BIG warning to EVERYONE on this forum. We have just gotten word of Black's TRUE identity. Herms has just translated it. I repeat, if you do not want to be spoiled before Saturday/Sunday, be VERY careful in which spoiler tags you open between today and Sunday.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

My idea was that Zamasu had found a sympathetic god, who became Goku Black.

[spoiler]Unfortunately, the truth seems to have been a bit less creative than that.

Really? Another Zamasu?[/spoiler]

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

My thread got locked and will probably be deleted so I'll ask here.

[spoiler]Anyone have any idea where Zamasu got another Goku to switch bodies with? And where is the Goku in Zamasu's body?[/spoiler]

[Jinzoningen MULE]

My thread got locked and will probably be deleted so I'll ask here.

[spoiler]Anyone have any idea where Zamasu got another Goku to switch bodies with? And where is the Goku in Zamasu's body?[/spoiler]

If I may be so blunt, it's stupid to ask something like that. We read the same spoilers you did, we didn't get a special, early viewing of the episode. Furthermore, if your thread was locked, it's probably because a moderator decided that no productive conversation can come from an inquiry like that. Sorry, you've got to patiently wait for answers without bugging us about it.

On the other hand, if you want to give your ideas on the specifics of what we already know, here is certainly the place to do it.

[bott52]

I've been deep at thought about this as well.
[spoiler]It was revealed that Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to switch mind AND body with Goku. While we don't know what Goku, it doesn't seem to make sense to be the Goku we've been seeing OR the deceased Future Goku. Using the same logic, it would also mean that there are at least 2 Zamasu's but they seem to be pointing towards a 3rd existing. This would mean that there is a penultimate or original Zamasu that met Goku first and then began the paradox. Multiple theories I've read mention that Zamasu most likely met Goku first in the Multiverse Tournament as well as Vegeta and their associates. Then he either contacted and got together with the Zamasu from Trunks's timeline or SOMEHOW the present Zamasu to end up becoming Black by using the SDB's to switch that Zamasu's mind and body with by my interpretation most likely the Goku that Zamasu originally met. Then the Zamasu that doesn't become Black abuses the Time Rings to become immortal with the SDB's. The reason that Black is similar in mindset and not exactly the same as Zamasu is because he switched MINDs too. This would mean that Zamasu adapted Goku's personality and traits to some extent while maintaining some of his own, hence why when Zamasu mentioned to Black about becoming immortal, he denied it and transformed to Super Saiyan Rosé. This makes Black really similar to a fusion of Zamasu and Goku, just with Zamasu having total control. This also means that there's a Goku trapped in the body of a Zamasu but also with Zamasu's mind to an extent too. Black/Zamasu most likely killed this Goku/Zamasu though.[/spoiler]
These are just my thoughts on the topic and I'm curious to hear anyone else's own opinions and their opinion of mine.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I've been deep at thought about this as well.
[spoiler]It was revealed that Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to switch mind AND body with Goku. While we don't know what Goku, it doesn't seem to make sense to be the Goku we've been seeing OR the deceased Future Goku. Using the same logic, it would also mean that there are at least 2 Zamasu's but they seem to be pointing towards a 3rd existing. This would mean that there is a penultimate or original Zamasu that met Goku first and then began the paradox. Multiple theories I've read mention that Zamasu most likely met Goku first in the Multiverse Tournament as well as Vegeta and their associates. Then he either contacted and got together with the Zamasu from Trunks's timeline or SOMEHOW the present Zamasu to end up becoming Black by using the SDB's to switch that Zamasu's mind and body with by my interpretation most likely the Goku that Zamasu originally met. Then the Zamasu that doesn't become Black abuses the Time Rings to become immortal with the SDB's. The reason that Black is similar in mindset and not exactly the same as Zamasu is because he switched MINDs too. This would mean that Zamasu adapted Goku's personality and traits to some extent while maintaining some of his own, hence why when Zamasu mentioned to Black about becoming immortal, he denied it and transformed to Super Saiyan Rosé. This also means that there's a Goku trapped in the body of a Zamasu but also with Zamasu's mind to an extent too. Black/Zamasu most likely killed this Goku/Zamasu though.[/spoiler]
These are just my thoughts on the topic and I'm curious to hear anyone else's own opinions and their opinion of mine.

Something I learned a while ago is to never dissect Japanese descriptions too much, they're flashy occasionally to the point of being downright confusing.

[spoiler]When it says "mind and body", it's most likely over-explaining that a Zamasu is now in Black's body. The differences between the two can most likely be accounted for by the fact that they're from different timelines, combined with the fact that Black has a Saiyan Body.[/spoiler]

Otherwise, I pretty much have the same assessment of the leaked material as you do.

[bott52]

[
Something I learned a while ago is to never dissect Japanese descriptions too much, they're flashy occasionally to the point of being downright confusing.

[spoiler]When it says "mind and body", it's most likely over-explaining that a Zamasu is now in Black's body. The differences between the two can most likely be accounted for by the fact that they're from different timelines, combined with the fact that Black has a Saiyan Body.[/spoiler]

Otherwise, I pretty much have the same assessment of the leaked material as you do.

I see, I took that into thought as well, it seems a little complicated to switch mind and bodies rather than just bodies. Excited to see the full story for sure. I've been questioning this for so long it seems like.

[OLKv3]

[spoiler]How does he know Goku's moveset if all he did was body jack him? Ginyu proved that switching bodies doesn't give you access to their techniques[/spoiler]

[THEGOKU]

[spoiler]How does he know Goku's moveset if all he did was body jack him? Ginyu proved that switching bodies doesn't give you access to their techniques[/spoiler]

Well from fighting with him he probably absorbed his techniques and it could even be that he wished to keeps the same fighting abilities as well as his own while going into Goku's body.

[HeroR]

[spoiler]How does he know Goku's moveset if all he did was body jack him? Ginyu proved that switching bodies doesn't give you access to their techniques[/spoiler]

Well from fighting with him he probably absorbed his techniques and it could even be that he wished to keeps the same fighting abilities as well as his own while going into Goku's body.

To be clear, he knew Goku's moves before fighting him.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

[spoiler]How does he know Goku's moveset if all he did was body jack him? Ginyu proved that switching bodies doesn't give you access to their techniques[/spoiler]

Well from fighting with him he probably absorbed his techniques and it could even be that he wished to keeps the same fighting abilities as well as his own while going into Goku's body.

To be clear, he knew Goku's moves before fighting him.

In the manga, he seems to have known Goku's techniques from the beginning. However, in the show, he seemed to just wantonly throw ki blasts around until that first fight with Goku.

[HeroR]

In the manga, he seems to have known Goku's techniques from the beginning. However, in the show, he seemed to just wantonly throw ki blasts around until that first fight with Goku.

He knew the Kamehameha and tried to teleport to Trunks' location in Episode 48.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

In the manga, he seems to have known Goku's techniques from the beginning. However, in the show, he seemed to just wantonly throw ki blasts around until that first fight with Goku.

He knew the Kamehameha and tried to teleport to Trunks' location in Episode 48.

True, but that's about all. He couldn't sense ki well, and his fighting style didn't match Goku's. The anime went out of its way to imply that Black masters Goku's power the more they fight.

[HeroR]

True, but that's about all. He couldn't sense ki well, and his fighting style didn't match Goku's. The anime went out of its way to imply that Black masters Goku's power the more they fight.

His fighting style is more elegant than Goku, even when they fought a second time. He only got stronger fighting Goku.