"Future" Trunks Arc Timeline & Paradox Discussion Thread

[Terez]

As much as I hate to admit it, supersaiyangodgogeta is correct in that Black is for all intents and purposes the present Zamasu we're all familiar with. Multiple characters have suggested this to be the case ever since Black's big revelation, not to mention the graphic essentially confirmed it altogether by insinuating that Beerus split the timelines.

I'm still not convinced this is the case. For one thing, the graphic also shows Trunks traveling to the timeline where Zamasu died, but not to Black's timeline. That fits with the assumption that the Beerus event is a product of time travel, and avoids all of the logical inconsistencies with the assumption that Trunks did arrive in that timeline, particularly 1) the distinctly different depictions of the death of Gowasu and 2) the fact that the Goku whose body was stolen had clearly never seen Black before.

As for the characters treating them as the same person: if the timelines diverge when Trunks arrives, then they're still the same person, with an alternate ending. It's only a matter of a few days between Trunks's arrival and the death of Zamasu or Gowasu (depending on the timeline). That's a huge contrast to the Zamasu in Trunks's timeline, who has lived for 30 years since his timeline diverged from Black's timeline.

So, Black was indeed the pupil of "our" Gowasu, minus a few days' worth of experiences.

Of course, it still doesn't make a lick of sense that Beerus can just alter the time loop at his whim if his very own progression of decisions serves as the foundation of that loop, but what are you gonna do? Can't expect the storytelling to be perfect I suppose.

The loop is only one of many problems with the assumption that Beerus actually caused the timelines to diverge. Fortunately, there's quite enough ambiguity in the given details to sidestep that assumption.

[emperior]

Have you guys seen Toei's Official Timeline?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cv7LWLIVUAA ... &name=orig

It makes sense to me, but I still don't get how is it possible Black was already terrorizing Trunks' timeline for a year.

[Terez]

Have you guys seen Toei's Official Timeline?

That is what we have been discussing for a few pages now.

It makes sense to me, but I still don't get how is it possible Black was already terrorizing Trunks' timeline for a year.

That's how long he had been on Earth. He's been in the timeline a good bit longer than that—a few years according to the manga. Not sure what the problem is, though. Trunks comes from 17 years in the future of that timeline, so even considering that Black departed his version of the main timeline at least a year later than the current Age in the story, he's still traveling to about 13-14 years in the future when he goes to Trunks's timeline.

[emperior]

Have you guys seen Toei's Official Timeline?

That is what we have been discussing for a few pages now.

It makes sense to me, but I still don't get how is it possible Black was already terrorizing Trunks' timeline for a year.

That's how long he had been on Earth. He's been in the timeline a good bit longer than that—a few years according to the manga. Not sure what the problem is, though. Trunks comes from 17 years in the future of that timeline, so even considering that Black departed his version of the main timeline at least a year later than the current Age in the story, he's still traveling to about 13-14 years in the future when he goes to Trunks's timeline.

Thinking about it, he must have used the green time ring. So everything makes sense to me now.
Now I only wonder if Gowasu/Kaioshin used the green ring, because if I remember correctly he used the silver one.

[Terez]

There some confusion about silver vs green. Black speaks as though he used the same Time Ring to go to the future of his own timeline that he used to go to Trunks's timeline. The one he was shown stealing was silver. The rings turn green when they cross dimensions though. Black's pulsed green when he was fighting Goku and continued to do so until he was back in Trunks's timeline and the portal closed. Gowasu's glowed greenish when he displayed it after he arrived.

[HeroR]

Have you guys seen Toei's Official Timeline?

That is what we have been discussing for a few pages now.

It makes sense to me, but I still don't get how is it possible Black was already terrorizing Trunks' timeline for a year.

That's how long he had been on Earth. He's been in the timeline a good bit longer than that—a few years according to the manga. Not sure what the problem is, though. Trunks comes from 17 years in the future of that timeline, so even considering that Black departed his version of the main timeline at least a year later than the current Age in the story, he's still traveling to about 13-14 years in the future when he goes to Trunks's timeline.

Thinking about it, he must have used the green time ring. So everything makes sense to me now.
Now I only wonder if Gowasu/Kaioshin used the green ring, because if I remember correctly he used the silver one.

Black always had a silver Time Ring, even when he met Future Zamasu. And Gowasu's Time Ring is also silver.

There some confusion about silver vs green. Black speaks as though he used the same Time Ring to go to the future of his own timeline that he used to go to Trunks's timeline. The one he was shown stealing was silver. The rings turn green when they cross dimensions though. Black's pulsed green when he was fighting Goku and continued to do so until he was back in Trunks's timeline and the portal closed. Gowasu's glowed greenish when he displayed it after he arrived.

The Ring also turn green when Gowasu used it in Episode 54. It has nothing to do with crossing dimensions.

[Terez]

The Ring also turn green when Gowasu used it in Episode 54. It has nothing to do with crossing dimensions.

I looked for a color change in that episode and didn't find one, but regardless, it does happen when they cross dimensions. Not sure why you would deny that.

[HeroR]

The Ring also turn green when Gowasu used it in Episode 54. It has nothing to do with crossing dimensions.

I looked for a color change in that episode and didn't find one, but regardless, it does happen when they cross dimensions. Not sure why you would deny that.

The Ring glows green when it time travels, period. Not just when it crosses dimensions.

[Terez]

I didn't say anything about "just". But, I just rewatched the scene in episode 54 again, and I still didn't find an instance of Gowasu's ring glowing green. I checked 55 too. Perhaps you have a screenshot?

Here's an album of screenshots covering Black's ring.

[emperior]

I didn't say anything about "just". But, I just rewatched the scene in episode 54 again, and I still didn't find an instance of Gowasu's ring glowing green. I checked 55 too. Perhaps you have a screenshot?

Here's an album of screenshots covering Black's ring.

Great. I think the time ring can do both travelling to the future without altering timelines and cross timelines. The green rings probably can only cross timelines or are just there to keep the count of different timelines.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

There is only continuity in terms of story. There is no such thing as film, anime and manga continuity. That's a fanmade concept. Consistency has nothing to do with continuity to begin with. The only determining factor in what's placed in the continuity is official word, nothing more. Pointless to try and made it more complicated than it actually is when the official heads themselves don't hold that viewpoint.

I don't know what else to tell you other than coming right out an saying you don't know what you're talking about. There's a difference before "canon" and "continuity", and your personal description of the latter...well, as you've been told, not only by myself, but multiple other members, that's just not how continuity works. At all.

Whether you choose to acknowledge that or continue with your own absurd definition is of course up to you, but until then, I'm really not sure there's much conversation to be had here.

[Cipher]

There is only continuity in terms of story. There is no such thing as film, anime and manga continuity. That's a fanmade concept. Consistency has nothing to do with continuity to begin with. The only determining factor in what's placed in the continuity is official word, nothing more. Pointless to try and made it more complicated than it actually is when the official heads themselves don't hold that viewpoint.

That's ... a generally helpful concept for discussing fiction, as it allows us to differentiate between two versions of a story and set expectations for what events they will and will not refer back to without jarring suspension of disbelief. Or to simply track and discuss ongoing events in one continuous story.

Continuity simply refers to the fiction/scene/image's coherence as part of a continuous series of events, rather than as an isolated scene/story/image. Part of that involves making authorial decisions and establishing contracts with the audience as far as what previous elements should be referred to/used as guidance. TheDevilsCorpse is very much right to point out that, as the manga and anime present very different versions of the same events, they present separate continuities--it's understood by both author and audience that they won't refer specifically to the different version, but will instead continue to build on what they've presented on their own. The cast won't suddenly start talking about Goku Black arriving in the past in the manga; they won't talk about their go-karting game in the anime.

By the way, film continuity, as in consistency between scenes, is so much a thing that "continuity director" is an industry job title. It's someone's job to keep an eye on everything remaining consistent within and between scenes, so that, if Emily is wearing a blue dress in scene A, in scene B, which in the script is set on the same day but in reality is filmed two days later, she's still wearing the blue dress. If she suddenly changes, the audience is jarred out of the picture, because events no longer track.

This is a three-paragraph post intended to say you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Now, "canon" is a word-of-god, metafictional concept that sees more traffic in fan circles than in general critical discussion. It refers to the designation of a "true" or core story, consisting of different metafictional elements. It's separate from continuity in that it isn't a contract set within the works themselves, and has no immediate bearing on how audiences respond to their content. That sounds more like what you're describing. In the case of Dragon Ball Super, we have multiple continuities (fictional consistency within different versions), but no canon (metafictional decree).

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

There is only continuity in terms of story. There is no such thing as film, anime and manga continuity. That's a fanmade concept. Consistency has nothing to do with continuity to begin with. The only determining factor in what's placed in the continuity is official word, nothing more. Pointless to try and made it more complicated than it actually is when the official heads themselves don't hold that viewpoint.

I don't know what else to tell you other than coming right out an saying you don't know what you're talking about. There's a difference before "canon" and "continuity", and your personal description of the latter...well, as you've been told, not only my myself, but multiple other members, that's just not how continuity works. At all.

Whether you choose to acknowledge that or continue with your own absurd definition is of course up to you, but until then, I'm really not sure there's much conversation to be had here.

I'm pretty sure that you're the one that doesn't know what their talking about. The only form of canon is franchise canon, therefore any mention of "canon" is largely irrelevant in any discussion. Continuity refers to the order of events in a story and is the only relevant subject when discussing official media.
The continuity of a story is determined by the statements of officials and where they place in it in the timeline, not whether or not it's a movie, manga or anime.

Resurrection of F the movie and the Super Arc weren't put into 2 different continuities since they are the same event in the same continuity. Consistency is irrelevant to where a work is put into the continuity, hence why TOEI put GT and Battle of Gods in the same continuity despite GT not being made with any of the events of Super in mind. They could choose to try and make the continuity as consistent as possible, but no it's not a necessity.

[Terez]

I'm pretty sure that you're the one that doesn't know what their talking about.

Literally everyone else is sure it's you.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I'm pretty sure that you're the one that doesn't know what their talking about.

Literally everyone else is sure it's you.

That's just too bad then. Though since you think that Present Zamasu and Black are 2 different people despite it being clearly stated otherwise, despite it clearly being stated that Beerus split the timelines which invalidates any theory about Black coming from an "alternate main timeline" caused by Trunks, I'm not sure how much water your claims hold.

[Terez]

I'm pretty sure that you're the one that doesn't know what their talking about.

Literally everyone else is sure it's you.

That's just too bad then. Though since you think that Present Zamasu and Black are 2 different people despite it being clearly stated otherwise...

They're essentially the same person, separated by only a few days until one's life ended. But then, to an extent, Future Zamasu and Black are the same person too. They're just separated by years, from the perspective of both.

Future Trunks and Kid Trunks, on the other hand, are basically just identical twins. The timelines diverged before they were born.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Literally everyone else is sure it's you.

That's just too bad then. Though since you think that Present Zamasu and Black are 2 different people despite it being clearly stated otherwise...

They're essentially the same person, separated by only a few days until one's life ended. But then, to an extent, Future Zamasu and Black are the same person too. They're just separated by years, from the perspective of both.

Future Trunks and Kid Trunks, on the other hand, are basically just identical twins. The timelines diverged before they were born.

That's not what's stated. Black and Present Zamasu are stated to come from the same time stream, yet you kept claiming otherwise. They are the same person. Future Zamasu and Black are only the same in genetics, same with Future and kid Trunks.

[Terez]

That's just too bad then. Though since you think that Present Zamasu and Black are 2 different people despite it being clearly stated otherwise...

They're essentially the same person, separated by only a few days until one's life ended. But then, to an extent, Future Zamasu and Black are the same person too. They're just separated by years, from the perspective of both.

Future Trunks and Kid Trunks, on the other hand, are basically just identical twins. The timelines diverged before they were born.

That's not what's stated. Black and Present Zamasu are stated to come from the same time stream...

Toei's diagram clearly shows that they are from divergent timelines. Trunks arrived in one timeline, but not in the other.

Future Zamasu and Black are only the same in genetics, same with Future and kid Trunks.

No, Future Zamasu and Black were a Kaiō before being promoted to Kaiōshin elect, so they might be hundreds or even thousands of years old (though I suspect only hundreds). The timelines only diverged about 33-34 years ago from the perspective of Future Zamasu, and about 20 years ago from Black's perspective (because he's been in that timeline for a few years). Before Age 763 they were literally the same person, and all their memories up to that point are exactly the same.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

They're essentially the same person, separated by only a few days until one's life ended. But then, to an extent, Future Zamasu and Black are the same person too. They're just separated by years, from the perspective of both.

Future Trunks and Kid Trunks, on the other hand, are basically just identical twins. The timelines diverged before they were born.

That's not what's stated. Black and Present Zamasu are stated to come from the same time stream...

Toei's diagram clearly shows that they are from divergent timelines. Trunks arrived in one timeline, but not in the other.

Future Zamasu and Black are only the same in genetics, same with Future and kid Trunks.

No, Future Zamasu and Black were a Kaiō before being promoted to Kaiōshin elect, so they might be hundreds or even thousands of years old (though I suspect only hundreds). The timelines only diverged about 33-34 years ago from the perspective of Future Zamasu, and about 20 years ago from Black's perspective (because he's been in that timeline for a few years). Before Age 763 they were literally the same person, and all their memories up to that point are exactly the same.

The diagram clearly states that Beerus split the timelines, not Trunks and Black existed before the timelines were split.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'm pretty sure that you're the one that doesn't know what their talking about.

That's just too bad then. Though since you think that Present Zamasu and Black are 2 different people despite it being clearly stated otherwise, despite it clearly being stated that Beerus split the timelines which invalidates any theory about Black coming from an "alternate main timeline" caused by Trunks, I'm not sure how much water your claims hold.

That's enough. You can continue your discussion on the timeline material itself, provided it's more polite than your above dismissal of Terez, but this part of the conversation is done. Cipher typed up a more than adequate reply, which you conveniently seem to have ignored, presenting you with evidence and examples that explain why you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

I'm going to ask (not actually asking) that you refrain from posting on the subject when you don't seem to understand it.