How will they fix the writing problem that Super had?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Izanagi
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Re: How will they fix the writing problem that Super had?

Post by Izanagi » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:57 pm

The biggest and most notable problem with not only Super, but DB as an entirety is the formula revolving around future antagonists constantly somehow coming off stronger than the previous antagonist, even if character X or Y was once heralded as the strongest entity in the universe. I get that DB is the pioneer of the modern action shonen manga that we know today, and it's the trope codifer to the vast majority of the tropes within the subgenre, but I think it's time for a change in the plot dynamics like Araki did with JJBA. For instance, Araki figured he couldn't make a vampire stronger than Kars, so he introduced Stands to reset the power escalation and it was the best decision he ever made. Stands are very balanced in the sense that nearly all Stands can be 'unbeatable' if used properly, meaning that the battles come down to exploiting the flaws that a Stand user will inevitably make because its users aren't perfect as well as maximizing the advantages of your Stand.

For instance, in Part 4, a rat was beating Jotaro in a one-on-one fight. Jotaro has one of the most powerful Stands in the entire series, however by figuring out how far he could move while stopping time and leveraging the range of it's Stand a rat manages to win the battle. It's only by exploiting it's reload time and having Josuke as a second combatant did they manage to win the battle. Both Jotaro and Josuke acknowledged that if they had better a longer ranged Stand, the rat would've been done for already.

Another problem with DB is that as the story progresses, the stakes are getting progressively higher and the power scale can only go up, in contrast, JJBA's stakes are relatively lower, after a trilogy of vampires and mayan gods threatening to destroy the world, Part 4 was a slice-of-life/action hybrid series whose antagonist was a serial killer who had only killed 48 women over the course of 15 years, yet, Part 4 felt incredibly tenses on several occasions, partly because Araki is very good at creating suspense and tension (I was at the edge of my seat when the characters were fighting over a sandwich bag). The funny part behind all that is that if the heroes had never accidentally discovered the serial killer's identity, they never would have been affected in the slightest, unlike with DB and the Saiyans' invasion on Earth or Zeno's multiversal battle royale.

I think one way to fix DB's power escalation problems is that Toriyama writes a potential scenario that doesn't necessarily make the antagonist a juggernaut who can destroy the entire universe with their pinkies which requires an otherwordly power-up to overcome, but to change up the tactics and give the heroes a problem to work out. For instance, while One Piece sort of follows the same formula as DB with the antagonists being more powerful than the previous ones, there are also some others who just has a trick up their sleeves. Gecko Moria for example wasn't particularly powerful compared to the past antagonist the Straw Hat Pirates confronted, but he was difficult to defeat because of his size and his Devil Fruit ability, which made it easy for him to trick and capture his enemies.

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Re: How will they fix the writing problem that Super had?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:02 am

I don't think having antagonists coming off stronger than the protagonists is the problem. It worked, initially, for DBZ: because in DB Goku was such a (figurative and literal) monster, in order to continue the series, DBZ's addition that Goku is actually a space alien, felt like a necessity. More importantly, he comes from a low-class Saiyan family, and his enemies are far stronger and more brutal than anyone Goku faced in Dragon Ball. It's why people genuinely feel that the saiyan and Frieza arcs represent the very best of DBZ.

But you're absolutely right about the power scaling. Goku (and pretty much any saiyan) got too strong way too fast.

I'll add Hunter x Hunter as a shonen anime that does power scaling really, really well. While main protagonists Gon and Killua are clearly talented fighters, capable of standing their ground and taking on fierce opponents, the anime (I assume also the manga since I've never read it) is careful not to to show them as being so powerful they can mop the floors with everyone, or have abilities that could end the fucking world. I'm currently in the Chimera ants arc (holy shit), and despite all that Gon and Killua have been through, they're still getting wrecked by other characters. This gives HxH some breathing room by adding tension to the show. Just because Gon and Killua are the main characters are the show doesn't guarantee they'll actually win all their battles.

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Re: How will they fix the writing problem that Super had?

Post by Kuwabara » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:43 pm

OLKv3 wrote: You did say that. You're trying to dismiss the criticism as if it's only from small portions of the west, when that's simply not true. Japanese fan make similar complaints
What I was mainly getting at is this western obsession with applying Marvel Comics internal logic to Dragon Ball when it makes no sense to do so. As VegettoEX once mentioned in the podcast, these types of fans are missing the forest for the trees. You can read my second post in this thread for more of my thoughts on the manner.

I have no doubt that other parts of the world criticize Dragon Ball in general, and while I admit that I may not have been completely clear, I never meant to imply that they don't. That's a pretty ridiculous notion anyway. I'm seriously growing tired of people on this forum making assumptions based on one part of a post I make.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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