SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

[SupremeKai25]

Okay...so bad writing doesn’t exist period, because it was ‘meant to happen’.

I didnt say that, I said that anything that happens is because the writers set that up, so that is not indication of bad writing.

Zamasu didn’t see Black improving so quickly once again, Black shouldn’t have gone through with it, at this point Black and Zamasu could have slaughtered everyone eventually.

Yes he did. He saw eeverything he did with the scythe, including the scar in the skies. He even commented on how Gods were truly glorious because they always reached new levels of power.

The ‘weapon’ you speak of failed, and it was about the only thing that could have stopped Zamasu apart from Zeno or other Gods.

But such a weapon existed, and for all they know they could have replicated it. That weapon also highlighted how fragile the two beings were separated, because if one were singled out, it would be the end. That problem is no longer present in a merged being.

He was incredibly stupid...he got so powerful within a short amount of time and didn’t even bother reassuring Zamasu. At this point you’re looking for reasons to justify this mistake. Goku Black in the anime was a lot more calm than in the manga.

Technically he did reassure him, since he told him that the games would end once they fused.

Besides, it was always their intention to fuse into one merged Supreme God. They even said earlier in the episode "One God is all that the cosmos need!". So they just decided to fuse as soon as possible to ensure victory.

[emperior]

Because SSBKK doesn't exist in the manga, and CSSB doesnt exist in the anime. So by including neither in the movie, the film could fit in both contintuies.

That doesn't make sense at all. If that were the case, then it really should've been the other way around. If Goku and Vegeta had stronger forms at their disposal, then they should have used them, maybe fusion wouldn't even be necessary. If the movie is meant to fit both continuities, why didn't Goku and Vegeta use any of those forms?

What you are saying makes no sense. The movie clearly was written to fit both continuities and there’s a simple reason: because Toriyama bases his stories on his outlines, not on the anime or manga. This way he’s sure not to mess with any of those continuities, and it’s easier work for him.

Why would he write both Mastered SSB and Kaioken to be in the movie? That would create a big mess. By keeping only the barebones - which is what was written by Toriyama himself in BoG, RoF and his outlines - it makes the movie reasonably fit with both continuities.

It fits with the manga as Blue is very strong, therefore manga readers assume Goku and Vegeta are using the completed Blue version (the aura is also not always on, and when it appears it’s different from the one in the manga so it can still be CSSB).

While anime fans will assume Goku didn’t use Kaioken because of how risky it is, or because once Broly went Super Saiyan and a teamwork with Vegeta didn’t work then Kaioken too wouldn’t have worked... and it makes sense, because Broly was almost on par with Blue Goku and then went Super Saiyan on top of that, so a 50x boost. Even if Goku used a x20 Kaioken (which he might have tried, if he had some senzu beans) it wouldn’t have closed the gap. And Goku can only keep an active x10 Kaioken, he can’t sustain x20 aside from some short boosts.
As for Vegeta’s SSBE, considering how it’s on par with Goku’s Blue Kaioken, he didn’t use it for the same reason. Or maybe in the anime continuity he can’t use Evolution anymore like Goku can’t use Ultra Instinct.

[Grimlock]

The movie clearly was written to fit both continuities and there’s a simple reason: because Toriyama bases his stories on his outlines, not on the anime or manga. This way he’s sure not to mess with any of those continuities, and it’s easier work for him. (...) By keeping only the barebones - which is what was written by Toriyama himself in BoG, RoF and his outlines - it makes the movie reasonably fit with both continuities.

I'm gonna need a source that says his actual script is "barebones/outlines". As far as I know, this is only for Dragon Ball Super. I doubt Toriyama only did "barebones/outlines" instead of a full-fledged script, detailing and specifing things for the movies.

It fits with the manga as Blue is very strong, therefore manga readers assume Goku and Vegeta are using the completed Blue version (...) While anime fans will assume Goku didn’t use Kaioken because of how risky it is,

Oh so we're gonna make assumptions now? That's "headcanon", no thank you.

[Matches Malone]

I doubt Toriyama only did "barebones/outlines" instead of a full-fledged script, detailing and specifing things for the movies.

You're right, Toriyama did write full scripts, with the fighting choreography being the only thing left up to the animators. I think he also allowed them to include Broly's Lssj form.

[Aim]

I'm not debating whether Rose is Black's SSJ or not. I'm saying that TOEI's writing didn't explain how, when SSJ is blonde.

They probably didn’t bother asking Toriyama and ended up misinterpreting his notes.

That's fine. I'm not saying that it is the same. However, what Toriyama writes, is what only counts.

Yep, I agree, it’s Toriyama’s story and he knows how to do Dragon Ball more than anyone.

Toriyama said this, Toriyama said that...

You want to write a story you didn’t create?

I didnt say that, I said that anything that happens is because the writers set that up, so that is not indication of bad writing.

In that case you can’t have bad writing, because what we were discussing was bad writing.

Yes he did. He saw eeverything he did with the scythe, including the scar in the skies. He even commented on how Gods were truly glorious because they always reached new levels of power.

Oh yep, I remember that. It proves my point further how stupid it was to fuse.

But such a weapon existed, and for all they know they could have replicated it. That weapon also highlighted how fragile the two beings were separated, because if one were singled out, it would be the end. That problem is no longer present in a merged being.

That problem was worse with the two of them merged, that’s one less being to seal away.

Black could have powered up and ended the humans at that point.

Technically he did reassure him, since he told him that the games would end once they fused.

Besides, it was always their intention to fuse into one merged Supreme God. They even said earlier in the episode "One God is all that the cosmos need!". So they just decided to fuse as soon as possible to ensure victory.

They fused because they were “desperate” in the end, that’s the point. Because of the changes they made in the anime it made Black and Zamasu’s decision to fuse the very meaning of stupidity.

[SupremeKai25]

In that case you can’t have bad writing, because what we were discussing was bad writing.

Still not what I said. I said that just because the writers set something up does not make it bad writing. Otherwise anything is bad writing, because in fiction the writer always sets up things, that's how the plot moves forward.

Also, there's nothing wrong with a villain making a miscalculation in the heat of the moment. Especially a methodical and cautious person like Zamasu who went to extreme lengths to make sure nobody could jeopardize his plans. And yes, ultimately fusion backfired when his body started becoming corrupted, but he did not know this conflict between mortality and immortality could happen.

[emperior]

The movie clearly was written to fit both continuities and there’s a simple reason: because Toriyama bases his stories on his outlines, not on the anime or manga. This way he’s sure not to mess with any of those continuities, and it’s easier work for him. (...) By keeping only the barebones - which is what was written by Toriyama himself in BoG, RoF and his outlines - it makes the movie reasonably fit with both continuities.

I'm gonna need a source that says his actual script is "barebones/outlines". As far as I know, this is only for Dragon Ball Super. I doubt Toriyama only did "barebones/outlines" instead of a full-fledged script, detailing and specifing things for the movies.

I phrased it uncorrectly. I meant that they only use his barebones outlines + his movies, which are actually full scripts. Actually we don’t even know how barebones the outlines are but surely they aren’t as deep as the actual stories which came out of them.
Basically I bet that when Toriyama has to come up with new stories he at best re-reads his movies and outlines to make sure things fit or to find some connection to make.

It fits with the manga as Blue is very strong, therefore manga readers assume Goku and Vegeta are using the completed Blue version (...) While anime fans will assume Goku didn’t use Kaioken because of how risky it is,

Oh so we're gonna make assumptions now? That's "headcanon", no thank you.

It’s not headcanon. It’s an explanation as to why the movie fits in the continuities. It has to.
Toriyama’s outlines are not publicly available, and the movie references the Tournament of Power and has Freeza alive whereas Resurrection F ended with him dead. No one in their right mind would collocate the movie in a third, unseen “Toriyama continuity” just because it doesn’t have anime exclusive forms or aura-less Super Saiyan Blue (and by the way the aura is different in the movie than how it was portrayed in the manga when they still had the uncomplete version of Blue).

Therefore the movie has to be in a continuity, be it the anime’s, the manga’s or both.
Yes the manga showed some flashback to the movie that slightly differ, visually, from what the movie had (ex. Goku’s outfit, Goku and Vegeta fighting Broly - and later fusing - with perfectly intact clothes, Freeza being shown in his 1st form in the present) but these are meaningless, and considering how the movie won’t be adapted there it’s obvious what happened on-screen is what happened in the manga’s continuity.

[Grimlock]

I phrased it uncorrectly. I meant that they only use his barebones outlines + his movies, which are actually full scripts. Actually we don’t even know how barebones the outlines are but surely they aren’t as deep as the actual stories which came out of them.
Basically I bet that when Toriyama has to come up with new stories he at best re-reads his movies and outlines to make sure things fit or to find some connection to make.

"They" who? I thought we were talking about Dragon Ball Super Broly. There's no "it was used his barebones outlines + movies". The movie came directly from a (most certainly full-fledged) script. Also, there's no doubt that the script for the movie isn't merely a barebone outline or that shallow as you imply because we do have information that the original one made up a three-hour long film and it had to be reduced.

Now, if we are talking about the retellings, we do have information that the retellings were based directly off the movies (if you consider voice actor a source), which means no "barebone outline" here either. All this shallow stuff Toriyama provided was for Universe 6 saga, Future Trunks saga and Universe Survival saga (and because we don't have any confirmation about Toriyama's involvement with the retellings).

It’s not headcanon. It’s an explanation as to why the movie fits in the continuities. It has to.
Toriyama’s outlines are not publicly available, and the movie references the Tournament of Power and has Freeza alive whereas Resurrection F ended with him dead. No one in their right mind would collocate the movie in a third, unseen “Toriyama continuity” just because it doesn’t have anime exclusive forms or aura-less Super Saiyan Blue (and by the way the aura is different in the movie than how it was portrayed in the manga when they still had the uncomplete version of Blue).

No, it does not have to because yes, there is a third continuity, the Toriyama one. Where Tarble is mentioned twice; where Gregory doesn't appear; where the power level originally intended and established by Toriyama still makes sense; where Freeza does not know about fusion; where all those manga and anime transformations aren't used; where Gotenks used Super Saiyan to fight Beerus and many more. You call it "unseen" but this is as visible that maybe even a blind person could tell you that there are differences and these differences create three continuities. All these discrepancies cannot and must not take place in the same continuity.

And while fans can choose a continuity to follow, still only one can be the "correct". Only one be called "the true version". And last I checked, neither Toyotaro nor Toei are above Toriyama...

You really think if/when Dragon Ball Super Broly were to be retold one day, Toei and Toyotaro wouldn't use their own forms? Obviously they would, because in their continuities, it makes sense for Goku and Vegeta to use their strongest forms before fusion. Just what happened in the movie, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is their strongest form, no additional power-up because, as the movie implies by the not usage of those transformations, Toriyama doesn't take them into consideration. Otherwise he would have made Goku and Vegeta used them. It's that simple.

[Miracles]

Toriyama said this, Toriyama said that...

Well...Who is the only one that can give factual background info on how elder Kaioshin got sealed into the sword without such lore being in the actual manga?

Toriyama.

[emperior]

I phrased it uncorrectly. I meant that they only use his barebones outlines + his movies, which are actually full scripts. Actually we don’t even know how barebones the outlines are but surely they aren’t as deep as the actual stories which came out of them.
Basically I bet that when Toriyama has to come up with new stories he at best re-reads his movies and outlines to make sure things fit or to find some connection to make.

"They" who? I thought we were talking about Dragon Ball Super Broly. There's no "it was used his barebones outlines + movies". The movie came directly from a (most certainly full-fledged) script. Also, there's no doubt that the script for the movie isn't merely a barebone outline or that shallow as you imply because we do have information that the original one made up a three-hour long film and it had to be reduced.

Now, if we are talking about the retellings, we do have information that the retellings were based directly off the movies (if you consider voice actor a source), which means no "barebone outline" here either. All this shallow stuff Toriyama provided was for Universe 6 saga, Future Trunks saga and Universe Survival saga (and because we don't have any confirmation about Toriyama's involvement with the retellings).

I literally said the movies are full scripts, I mean detailed ones. But actually the 3 hours stuff wasn’t all from Toriyama, the DB Room actually added stuff when Toriyama came up with the script and said “maybe it’s too short?”.
That’s why I say “they”. Because the DB Room also helped with Broly’s script.

Of course the retellings were based off the movie. I never said otherwise. And I corrected myself saying I worded the phrase poorly when I implied movies to be barebones. Maybe read with more attention what I write, please.

But do you really believe that Toriyama, before writing new stories, starts his Super DVDs and watches all those abysmal episodes from the retellings, whose quality he even criticized, while he can just read his movie scripts or re-watch BoG and RoF? That’s why we get things such as Freeza not knowing of Fusion. Because Toriyama doesn’t give a fuck about the retellings. But by judging what you wrote next, about a 3rd Toriyama continuity, I think we agree on this.

It’s not headcanon. It’s an explanation as to why the movie fits in the continuities. It has to.
Toriyama’s outlines are not publicly available, and the movie references the Tournament of Power and has Freeza alive whereas Resurrection F ended with him dead. No one in their right mind would collocate the movie in a third, unseen “Toriyama continuity” just because it doesn’t have anime exclusive forms or aura-less Super Saiyan Blue (and by the way the aura is different in the movie than how it was portrayed in the manga when they still had the uncomplete version of Blue).

No, it does not have to because yes, there is a third continuity, the Toriyama one. Where Tarble is mentioned twice; where Gregory doesn't appear; where the power level originally intended and established by Toriyama still makes sense; where Freeza does not know about fusion; where all those manga and anime transformations aren't used; where Gotenks used Super Saiyan to fight Beerus and many more. You call it "unseen" but this is as visible that maybe even a blind person could tell you that there are differences. All these discrepancies cannot and must not take place in the same continuity.

And while fans can choose a continuity to follow, still only one can be the "correct". Only one be called "the true version". And last I checked, neither Toyotaro nor Toei are above Toriyama...

You really think if/when Dragon Ball Super Broly were to be retold one day, Toei and Toyotaro wouldn't use their own forms? Obviously they would, because in their continuities, it makes sense for Goku and Vegeta to use their strongest forms before fusion. Just what happened in the movie, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is their strongest form, no additional power-up because, as the movie implies by the not usage of those transformations, Toriyama doesn't take them into consideration. Otherwise he would have made Goku and Vegeta used them. It's that simple.

You know all the stuff you wrote fits with the manga? You are basically implying that the manga is the canonical product and that the movie only fits with that continuity. Which is a fine take.
Aside from Gotenks, but we can consider the manga’s BoG to not count as it’s basically a very fast alternate retelling of Battle of Gods and skips a lot of stuff.

And sorry but cease with this “third continuity” stuff because it makes no sense and you are the only person saying it exists. Especially not when Toriyama himself went and corrected the manga a few times, sketched a rough storyboard once and changed dialogue. So do you consider that stuff to be canonical while the rest is not? Is that stuff part of your “third continuity”?

[Grimlock]

You know all the stuff you wrote fits with the manga? You are basically implying that the manga is the canonical product and that the movie only fits with that continuity. Which is a fine take.
Aside from Gotenks, but we can consider the manga’s BoG to not count as it’s basically a very fast alternate retelling of Battle of Gods and skips a lot of stuff.

Even if we completely ignore Toyotaro's retelling, we would still have his transformation to deal with. Where is this "Completed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" in Dragon Ball Super Broly if said movie is meant to fit this continuity?

And sorry but cease with this “third continuity” stuff because it makes no sense and you are the only person saying it exists.

Probably because I'm the only one who follows the original author rather than third parties.

• Having a third continuity by the author himself, preventing even more problems by the numerous differences = makes no sense!1!1!11!1

• Ignoring a third continuity and thinking there's only two, where things established by the author himself were omitted and others were drastically changed "fit" another product that have those things omitted and even ignores what third parties came up with = OMG! Makes perfect sense!1!1!11!1

Especially not when Toriyama himself went and corrected the manga a few times, sketched a rough storyboard once and changed dialogue. So do you consider that stuff to be canonical while the rest is not? Is that stuff part of your “third continuity”?

I don't get to consider anything canonical because I'm not an official entity in the Dragon Ball brand. Only official people can dictate what is and what is not canonical. None of us fit that category.

The way I see it, Toriyama correcting stuff is nothing more than his contributions to it. It's nothing different from his contributions throughout the series. That hardly suggest anything in the grand scheme of things.

[Aim]

In that case you can’t have bad writing, because what we were discussing was bad writing.

Still not what I said. I said that just because the writers set something up does not make it bad writing. Otherwise anything is bad writing, because in fiction the writer always sets up things, that's how the plot moves forward.

Also, there's nothing wrong with a villain making a miscalculation in the heat of the moment. Especially a methodical and cautious person like Zamasu who went to extreme lengths to make sure nobody could jeopardize his plans. And yes, ultimately fusion backfired when his body started becoming corrupted, but he did not know this conflict between mortality and immortality could happen.

Jesus Christ.

[ankokudaishogun]

Toriyama said this, Toriyama said that...

Well...Who is the only one that can give factual background info on how elder Kaioshin got sealed into the sword without such lore being in the actual manga?

Toriyama.

Except the published media trump out-of-media explanations.

the "Toriyama original outline" has no real weight against published media like anime and manga.,

The "original idea" doesn't matter, only the "finished product" matters

[Miracles]

Toriyama said this, Toriyama said that...

Well...Who is the only one that can give factual background info on how elder Kaioshin got sealed into the sword without such lore being in the actual manga?

Toriyama.

Except the published media trump out-of-media explanations.

the "Toriyama original outline" has no real weight against published media like anime and manga.,

The "original idea" doesn't matter, only the "finished product" matters

Yeah, and the "finished product's" story is from Toriyama due to his plot lines and supervision.

[Psajdak]

Toriyama won't be around forever; Dragon Ball may be his idea, but one day he simply won't matter anymore.

[Hugo Boss]

About the continuity discussion, I also believe we already have enough elements to differentiate manga, anime and movies. Super Saiyan Blue is perhaps the most blatant of them, having different evolutions.

In the movies, it’s purely the next form after Super Saiyan God. In the manga, it has two more advanced versions, one which doesn’t let the power leak out and other that has a different aura (Goku also used some kind of Blue kaioken, though he clearly hadn’t proper control). The anime has Goku’s kaioken and Vegeta’s evolution, which are the most distinguishable.

I think both the manga and the anime didn’t quite get the point of Super Saiyan Blue, since it wasn’t supposed to be incomplete, but perhaps that was due to the problem of introducing this form so soon that they probably thought they needed to upgrade it to keep the audience’s expectations of Goku and Vegeta getting stronger forms in every arc, until Toriyama came up with Ultra Instinct.

[Grimlock]

That we have enough elements to differentiate manga, anime and movies is clear (or it should be clear by now).

The problem starts when people want to reconciliate the movies with either or both the manga and anime. Ignoring all the contradictions and problems it may (and certainly will) cause.

[ankokudaishogun]

Yeah, and the "finished product's" story is from Toriyama due to his plot lines and supervision.

that's utterly irrelevant: only the finished product matters.

Unless you think we should discard #16, #17, #18 and Cell because they were born out of editorial interference and not Toriyama's original idea.

[Miracles]

Yeah, and the "finished product's" story is from Toriyama due to his plot lines and supervision.

that's utterly irrelevant: only the finished product matters.

Unless you think we should discard #16, #17, #18 and Cell because they were born out of editorial interference and not Toriyama's original idea.

The finished product is still Toriyama's story. Both anime and manga adapt from Toriyama. They do not come up with the story themselves.

[The Undying]

I think both the manga and the anime didn’t quite get the point of Super Saiyan Blue

I somewhat disagree. I think the manga's direction is well enough in line with how Toriyama does transformations, particularly Super Saiyan ones, even if it's not what was initially intended.

In the manga, Blue is as taxing as you would expect a newly acquired Super Saiyan form to be. It serves a distinct narrative purpose and acts as an impediment for Goku/Vegeta to overcome and then improve, providing both characters with a clear waypost as they grow in strength. It's not abused haphazardly. It's represented as the apex of Super Saiyan transformations, but it also concisely provides a much simpler picture of where these characters stand rather than just introducing a bunch of extra forms for the "hype" factor to pointlessly bloat up the hierarchy.

And despite all these debates about "completed" versions and new auras, the manga and the movies mostly take the same approach here: Blue is still just Blue, which makes sense given Toriyama's more direct level of involvement with the manga.