Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[WittyUsername]

I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."

Except that doesn't work as a theme in Star Wars because of how The Force was potrayed to work in the series. Also, Rey being a random nobody who just-so-happens to be on par with the greatest Jedis & Siths who ever lived would have made her even more of a Mary Sue than she already is lmao, because there would have been no internal justification for her shown capabilities. Its the exact same reason why the reveal of Goku being a Saiyan at the start of Z was one of the best things Toriyama ever did for the character, because it retroactively justifies all of his feats & accomplishments he had prior to it and prevented him from being a Gary Stu.

Anakin was a son to a nobody, his father isn't even mentioned, so what's the difference? Someone being strong because they are is not something bad, Goku trained his whole life to get stronger, because he wanted better fights and because there's always someone stronger out there, Toryiama was just really smart to capitalize on something that was hinted for a long time to make the world, and it's threats, bigger.

Anakin never had a father. He was basically a virgin birth. It was part of the whole chosen one prophecy.

Anyway, Goku being an alien is fine, though I might partially be saying that because I was introduced to DBZ first. Still, I’m not too crazy about the idea that his love of fighting is supposed to be attributed to his Saiyan heritage.

[Adamant]

Anakin never had a father. He was basically a virgin birth. It was part of the whole chosen one prophecy.

I think some AU something made him Palpatine's son, actually. He used the force to remotely rape Anakin's mom. Or something

[ABED]

Granted my pop culture knowledge is limited to mostly my life time but Empire feels like the first time a big twist like this happened in a movie. I can't recall anything else like it on this scale and it feels like so many subsequent stories are chasing that reaction.

With DB the twist mostly works because it was initially not used as a chosen one twist.

[JulieYBM]

The Planet of the Apes' ending is huge. Apparently very famous.

[WittyUsername]

Anakin never had a father. He was basically a virgin birth. It was part of the whole chosen one prophecy.

I think some AU something made him Palpatine's son, actually. He used the force to remotely rape Anakin's mom. Or something

I believe that was an implication that a comic from the Disney canon introduced, but the writer for that comic denied that was the case. In any case, that certainly wasn’t part of the canon when George Lucas still owned the franchise.

[LoganForkHands73]

Granted my pop culture knowledge is limited to mostly my life time but Empire feels like the first time a big twist like this happened in a movie. I can't recall anything else like it on this scale and it feels like so many subsequent stories are chasing that reaction.

With DB the twist mostly works because it was initially not used as a chosen one twist.

... Surely it doesn't need to be said, but Star Wars didn't innovate big shocking plot twists in cinema, not even close.

[kemuri07]

1. Goku being revealed as a Saiyan is fine because his heritage has the opposite effect: It brings him right back down to a lower hierarchy and has to work his way up again solely through sheer will and talent.

2. TLJ felt like both a meta commentary on both these types of stories and Star Wars in general. Considering that both Rey and Kylo are essentially fanboys trying to recreate the origin stories of their fav characters. TLJ flips it by having Rey's parents be a bunch of drunken nobodies and Kylo being set off by the very person you would never think would do something--Luke Skywalker. But then TROS comes and undoes all of it because FUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOU she's a Palpatine now.

[kemuri07]

Granted my pop culture knowledge is limited to mostly my life time but Empire feels like the first time a big twist like this happened in a movie. I can't recall anything else like it on this scale and it feels like so many subsequent stories are chasing that reaction.

With DB the twist mostly works because it was initially not used as a chosen one twist.

... Surely it doesn't need to be said, but Star Wars didn't innovate big shocking plot twists in cinema, not even close.

Sure. But it'd be foolish to ignore the influence that Star Wars, and especially The Empire Strikes Back, had on story telling going forward.

[ABED]

Granted my pop culture knowledge is limited to mostly my life time but Empire feels like the first time a big twist like this happened in a movie. I can't recall anything else like it on this scale and it feels like so many subsequent stories are chasing that reaction.

With DB the twist mostly works because it was initially not used as a chosen one twist.

... Surely it doesn't need to be said, but Star Wars didn't innovate big shocking plot twists in cinema, not even close.

"Like this" is vague but I know there were other twists but not quite this level of notoriety. I was thinking Rosebud is a sled is a big twist obviously but not as huge. Julie brought up Planet of the Apes which is a good one, but I still maintain Empire is the example of one keep chasing. More to the point, it's the one where the protagonist and the antagonist are linked by blood.

It's why I love the line in Yu Yu Hakusho where Mukuro says "Don't worry I'm not gonna say 'I'm your father' or some cliche like that." That's not the exact quote but it's something like it.

[kemuri07]

Speaking of Yu Yu Hakusho, I despised the final season for a lot of the reasons we discussed here. Yusuke is an awesome character because he's able to compete with characters much stronger than him via talent and willpower. But then it's revealed none of that matters cause his dad is a demon.

fuuuuck that.

[UI Peter]

I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."

Except that doesn't work as a theme in Star Wars because of how The Force was potrayed to work in the series. Also, Rey being a random nobody who just-so-happens to be on par with the greatest Jedis & Siths who ever lived would have made her even more of a Mary Sue than she already is lmao, because there would have been no internal justification for her shown capabilities. Its the exact same reason why the reveal of Goku being a Saiyan at the start of Z was one of the best things Toriyama ever did for the character, because it retroactively justifies all of his feats & accomplishments he had prior to it and prevented him from being a Gary Stu.

Anakin was a son to a nobody, his father isn't even mentioned, so what's the difference? Someone being strong because they are is not something bad, Goku trained his whole life to get stronger, because he wanted better fights and because there's always someone stronger out there, Toryiama was just really smart to capitalize on something that was hinted for a long time to make the world, and it's threats, bigger.

Anakin was heavily implied to have been created through Force manipulation by the previous Sith Lord before Palpatine.


And Goku was by no means a serious trainer before meeting Kami, and there's many characters in DB how trained longer and harder than Goku ever did yet are nowhere near as strong nor skilled.

[JulieYBM]

Sure love writing about the *checks notes* rape of women by weird religious cults to create prophecy babies.

[UI Peter]

Gary Stu and Mary Sue, really?

Yes, really

Goku being a Saiyan doesn't work because it explains anything. It worked because it made a point about class and it opened up the world even more. You thought the enemies he fought were strong, wait until you get a load of these guys! You though Goku was special? Nope, he was a weakling among his race. And ultimately the point Toriyama makes is Goku isn't some chosen one, he has a natural gift but he sharpens and refines it through training until he's the best of his race.

The fact that Goku is a full-blood Saiyan with a pure heart makes him special (especially for Z). The fact that he's low class yet reach levels of power above the elites makes him inherently special. The fact that he's the 1st SSJ in thousands of years makes him super special lmao. Any attempt to potray Goku as "not special" just doesn't work when he keeps doing special feats and his special stuff happen to him on the regular lol

Its an awareness of the reality and importance of hereditary factors in life, not a writing cliche.

And even before Empire Strikes Back, The Force was stated to be something only a relative few in the whole galaxy could manipulate (and that Force Sensitivity was an inborn thing).

It is absolutely a cliche. Nobody can seem to meet through circumstance anymore. Everyone needs to have some secret relation in order to justify something in the story. Sometimes it works, often times it doesn't. And sometimes elements in a story don't need explanation. They can just be. We didn't need the Saiyan reveal to justify Goku's strength. He was the main character and he was a wunderkind. That's a big reason the story followed him and it didn't need more than that.

How in the world is a real-life sociological phenomenon a cliche? The real-life fact that genetics/heritage matters means that yes, you DO often need some special relation to justify many certain things in a story, and Goku being a Saiyan did just that. You ever wonder why almost every mythological hero tends to be some type of demi-god or an high ranked aristocrat? That's the main reason. And Goku being strong "just so" in Early DB doesn't work at all, since there was plenty of other characters that trained longer & harder and lived much longer than Kid Goku did yet couldn't match him in power & talent for apparently no reason. It's a very Mary Sueish thing.

The emperor was probably the strongest character we saw in the original trilogy and maybe prequels. Do we need some drawn out explanation why? No. He just was and sometimes that's okay.

[UI Peter]

Sure love writing about the *checks notes* rape of women by weird religious cults to create prophecy babies.

Who said anything about rape?

[JulieYBM]

Sure love writing about the *checks notes* rape of women by weird religious cults to create prophecy babies.

Who said anything about rape?

A man literally forced a woman to bare his child (Anakin).

[UI Peter]

I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."

Except that doesn't work as a theme in Star Wars because of how The Force was potrayed to work in the series. Also, Rey being a random nobody who just-so-happens to be on par with the greatest Jedis & Siths who ever lived would have made her even more of a Mary Sue than she already is lmao, because there would have been no internal justification for her shown capabilities. Its the exact same reason why the reveal of Goku being a Saiyan at the start of Z was one of the best things Toriyama ever did for the character, because it retroactively justifies all of his feats & accomplishments he had prior to it and prevented him from being a Gary Stu.

Every single time I hear the term "Mary Sue" mentioned in regards to a fictional character, I roll my eyes so hard . That term was originally coined to mock certain types of characters in FANFICTION, using it for actual real fictional works makes zero sense.

"Mary Sue" is a legit criticism of certain characters based on their bad writing. It was never limited to fan fiction.

https://youtu.be/H2-GIY9RTqU

[UI Peter]

Sure love writing about the *checks notes* rape of women by weird religious cults to create prophecy babies.

Who said anything about rape?

A man literally forced a woman to bare his child (Anakin).

The birth of Anakin was a virgin birth. There was no sex involved at all.

Rape is non-consensual sex, not "using magic to create a baby" smh.

[JulieYBM]

Who said anything about rape?

A man literally forced a woman to bare his child (Anakin).

The birth of Anakin was a virgin birth. There was no sex involved at all.

Rape is non-consensual sex, not "using magic to create a baby" smh.

Read between the lines. A woman being violated is still being used as a crux for the dumb space movie's main character.

Oh, then the mom leads a miserable life as a single mother and slave only to die after being tortured for days on end.

[MyVisionity]

Speaking of Yu Yu Hakusho, I despised the final season for a lot of the reasons we discussed here. Yusuke is an awesome character because he's able to compete with characters much stronger than him via talent and willpower. But then it's revealed none of that matters cause his dad is a demon.

Yūsuke being part-Yōkai never negates his innate talent or willpower. In fact the final arc of the series is all about that very point. Plus I don't think his Mazoku abilities even became active until his resurrection, so it's not like the previous battles were affected. Unlike with Goku, who is retroactively a Saiyajin.

But similarly, Goku still retains his unique characteristics after his alien origins are revealed.

[ABED]

Gary Stu and Mary Sue, really?

Yes, really

Goku being a Saiyan doesn't work because it explains anything. It worked because it made a point about class and it opened up the world even more. You thought the enemies he fought were strong, wait until you get a load of these guys! You though Goku was special? Nope, he was a weakling among his race. And ultimately the point Toriyama makes is Goku isn't some chosen one, he has a natural gift but he sharpens and refines it through training until he's the best of his race.

The fact that Goku is a full-blood Saiyan with a pure heart makes him special (especially for Z). The fact that he's low class yet reach levels of power above the elites makes him inherently special. The fact that he's the 1st SSJ in thousands of years makes him super special lmao. Any attempt to potray Goku as "not special" just doesn't work when he keeps doing special feats and his special stuff happen to him on the regular lol

Its an awareness of the reality and importance of hereditary factors in life, not a writing cliche.

And even before Empire Strikes Back, The Force was stated to be something only a relative few in the whole galaxy could manipulate (and that Force Sensitivity was an inborn thing).

It is absolutely a cliche. Nobody can seem to meet through circumstance anymore. Everyone needs to have some secret relation in order to justify something in the story. Sometimes it works, often times it doesn't. And sometimes elements in a story don't need explanation. They can just be. We didn't need the Saiyan reveal to justify Goku's strength. He was the main character and he was a wunderkind. That's a big reason the story followed him and it didn't need more than that.

How in the world is a real-life sociological phenomenon a cliche? The real-life fact that genetics/heritage matters means that yes, you DO often need some special relation to justify many certain things in a story, and Goku being a Saiyan did just that. You ever wonder why almost every mythological hero tends to be some type of demi-god or an high ranked aristocrat? That's the main reason. And Goku being strong "just so" in Early DB doesn't work at all, since there was plenty of other characters that trained longer & harder and lived much longer than Kid Goku did yet couldn't match him in power & talent for apparently no reason. It's a very Mary Sueish thing.

The emperor was probably the strongest character we saw in the original trilogy and maybe prequels. Do we need some drawn out explanation why? No. He just was and sometimes that's okay.

Stop abusing the term Mary Sue. First, you are using it wrong, and it's obnoxious. You take this point as somehow self evident without any need to explain why you believe either Rey or Goku are somehow Mary Sue's. Goku's the main character. The whole point of a Mary Sue is that they are better than everyone else, usually the leads, and is perfect. Goku is better than his peers in ONE aspect - fighting, and even then he loses a lot, and constantly finds people better than he is. Please stop using that insipid term. What's odd about your comment is you bring up real life sociological phenomena as justification for your viewpoint but don't see that some people are simply gifted, hence young musical prodigies who are as good as adult musicians who have trained for years.

Why doesn't it work that Goku is just innately better than the other fighters? Some people are just naturally gifted. There is no other explanation needed other than that. It's the combination of natural talent and effort, not just one or the other.

And Star Wars is about as great a fictional example of characters being good at using a plot device "just because" as you'll ever find. The force is so vaguely defined that it's literally called THE FORCE. I don't know why anyone feels they need some explanation for why any character is so innately good at something. Even with Goku's Saiyan heritage, that doesn't explain why Goku is so much more talented than Vegeta. Both are Saiyans and Vegeta probably works even harder but doesn't make the gains as quickly as Goku. At some point you have to accept these sorts of things just because.