Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 1 - Official Discussion Thread

[JulieYBM]

It stops being pointless when the people working behind these stories clearly wants to tell us a message, Super was made as a "true" follow up to the Boo Saga from all perspectives, Toei, Toriyama, Toyotaro, [...]

That is simply untrue. "Super" was originally just another Z movie, written by someone who wasn't Toriyama.
Dragon Ball was dead to Toriyama before, it died in the 90's and all he wanted was for it to stay dead definitively.
He received phone calls asking him to write a new Dragon Ball, but he refused each and every time.
Toriyama was very clear about it: Dragon Ball was dead to him and he didn't want it to be continued.

...Then he saw Evolution, then he was asked to approve of the script for this new Z movie, and he decided very hesitantly to come back, if only to damage control what they were doing to his legacy.

Toriyama wrote BoG and RoF. At first, it was just the movies. But Toei saw how much cash they were making with it, and haphazardly approved the production of a new anime, that being Super, with barely any pre-production time. Quality didn't matter, that was a sentiment held by many of those who were working on Super at the time. What mattered was that Dragon Ball was profitable again and they were going to milk it for all it was worth.

I'm sorry, I'm not writing any of this to invalidate your love for Super, it's clearly something that brings joy to your life and I really don't want to warp your view of it, but what led to Super's creation was ultimately corporate greed, not really a desire to "Make the ultimate canon Dragon Ball product."

Lord knows if Evolution wasn't a thing, that Z movie would've been released as is and Super probably would've either never existed or would've been entirely different, written solely by Toei with Toriyama's approval much like it was for GT.

You can give the fuck to continuity as you want, but saying that it's POINTLESS to discuss it is basically saying that the work of hundreds of fans who spend their time trying to understand how theses stories works, the multiple youtube videos that try to explain them, wikis etc, are all useless and have no reason to exist, also, Toei, Toriyama and Toyotaro themselves and all the efforts they made to keep things as consistent as possible is useless and makes no sense to exist.
Sounds a bit rude to me.

I do feel it's unhealthy to be worrying and stressing yourself out about how "valid" is a work of fiction. At the end of the day, it's a made-up fantasy story, created purely to entertain and bring joy to our lives, not the Bible or a scientific report.

I do feel it's even more unhealthy to perpetuate the idea that "There is only one true continuity. Don't even bother trying to argue there's more, that's non-canon and stupid!" Not only is that entirely false, given that Dragon Ball has shown time and again it has SEVERAL different continuities, but it often leads to toxic behavior like this:

"People who enjoy Dragon Ball GT, please understand that your opinions, just like the show itself along with your entire life, is worthless and will never matter to the source material." (A post I have seen once with several thousands of likes on Social Media.)

If you really want to call one the "main unequivocally true continuity", that's the original manga, and only the original manga. Everything else, including Super itself, add details that directly contradict it.

Dragon Ball Super's staff were fucked over by a certain someone at the studio who kept interfering with the very little production time they had to work with. To say that 'many' of the people who worked on Super did not care is just not true. The staff cared, but Toei Animation at the time was regularly not supporting their production staff and leaving them all out to dry with no time and no staff.

[sangofe]

They made a complete fucking mess of the Potara.

Shin and Kibito use Majin Boo to defuse but that contradicts DBS in more than 1 way.

I loved the explanation. Made me laugh.

[AliTheZombie13]

Dragon Ball Super's staff were fucked over by a certain someone at the studio who kept interfering with the very little production time they had to work with. To say that 'many' of the people who worked on Super did not care is just not true. The staff cared, but Toei Animation at the time was regularly not supporting their production staff and leaving them all out to dry with no time and no staff.

I'm sure the staff was concerned with making a quality product, but the point I wanted to emphasize was: Dragon Ball Super's creation had nothing to do with being "the true ultimate sequel to Dragon Ball", at least not by the higher-ups at Toei. They were concerned solely with how much profit they could make out of it, to the point they left the staff to rot, just like you said. It was so bad Toriyama himself ended up complaining about.

"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime, so it seems that DB has grown on me much that I can't leave it alone." - Toriyama

"Dragon ______, where I'm working at the moment, is beyond help. The animation director can only check the layout for the next 10 days. No matter what, the quality can't be guaranteed. Who messed the schedule up, and when?" - Super Staff

None of this speaks to me, "All the parties involved made Super as a statement as to what is the one true sequel to Dragon Ball."

[Rafa Fast]

That is simply untrue. "Super" was originally just another Z movie, written by someone who wasn't Toriyama.
Dragon Ball was dead to Toriyama before, it died in the 90's and all he wanted was for it to stay dead definitively.
He received phone calls asking him to write a new Dragon Ball, but he refused each and every time.
Toriyama was very clear about it: Dragon Ball was dead to him and he didn't want it to be continued.

...Then he saw Evolution, then he was asked to approve of the script for this new Z movie, and he decided very hesitantly to come back, if only to damage control what they were doing to his legacy.

Toriyama wrote BoG and RoF. At first, it was just the movies. But Toei saw how much cash they were making with it, and haphazardly approved the production of a new anime, that being Super, with barely any pre-production time. Quality didn't matter, that was a sentiment held by many of those who were working on Super at the time. What mattered was that Dragon Ball was profitable again and they were going to milk it for all it was worth.

I'm sorry, I'm not writing any of this to invalidate your love for Super, it's clearly something that brings joy to your life and I really don't want to warp your view of it, but what led to Super's creation was ultimately corporate greed, not really a desire to "Make the ultimate canon Dragon Ball product."

Lord knows if Evolution wasn't a thing, that Z movie would've been released as is and Super probably would've either never existed or would've been entirely different, written solely by Toei with Toriyama's approval much like it was for GT.

I do feel it's unhealthy to be worrying and stressing yourself out about how "valid" is a work of fiction. At the end of the day, it's a made-up fantasy story, created purely to entertain and bring joy to our lives, not the Bible or a scientific report.

I do feel it's even more unhealthy to perpetuate the idea that "There is only one true continuity. Don't even bother trying to argue there's more, that's non-canon and stupid!" Not only is that entirely false, given that Dragon Ball has shown time and again it has SEVERAL different continuities, but it often leads to toxic behavior like this:

"People who enjoy Dragon Ball GT, please understand that your opinions, just like the show itself along with your entire life, is worthless and will never matter to the source material." (A post I have seen once with several thousands of likes on Social Media.)

If you really want to call one the "main unequivocally true continuity", that's the original manga, and only the original manga. Everything else, including Super itself, add details that directly contradict it.

Sorry, but I think I expressed myself wrong, my feelings don't really mean much for the subject, I love GT too, so in particular I wouldn't mind if was somehow canon, I would've liked it (actually not, as that series ended too fast and the story is over), I go by what mostly the official artistic choices made by them lead to, yes there is a lot of corporate stuff mixed in too, but I can see that what was made since 2013 goes beyond that, for example, after GT ended, from 1998 to 2012, we never got to see the series receiving the same treatment as DB and specially Z, it got very very few videogames (2 or 3?), DB received a lot more, and as far as I know, that show was less popular than GT in the 2000's, at least outside of Japan, you can say GT's poor reception could be the reason for it, but I think other reason for it is that Toei and Shueisha never considered GT a true sequel, never as a part of that story that ended in 1995.
I know very well about the story behind Kami to Kami, but I refer to the final results only, how the movie was marketed, presented and treated, and what I saw is that they wanted us to believe that this new story was the true follow up to the story of Z, no wonder why they called it "Z" (there are some confusions with the brand in that time too, but they were very clever when using "Z")
it's unlike GT, which was considered just as a continuation of Toei's animated run in the 90's, that's what I'm talking about, how they treat things, I'll give another example
The 13 Old DBZ Movies, despite all their contradictions, inconsistences and story elements that are just impossible to exist in the anime, they are all considered officially canon to the anime, yeah, we may not agree about it, but they somehow are, that's why the Garlic Jr. Saga happens, that's why we see Coola in GT. Despite how careless Toei was here, we can see that they at least had some sense of continuity in their heads, as the 3 original DB movies and the 1996 movie officially aren't canon to the anime, they're all stories in a different continuity, the first 3 share the same continuity, while 1996 is another reboot.

Going to back to Super, what I'm saying is that Super is officially considered as a true continuation of the original story, the manga, I'm working here with official information, GT officially was never considered to be a true continuation of the original manga, but a continuation to the DB->Z anime & Movies continuity, and that continuity was always separate from the manga.

Super may have "3.5" different continuities, but I can say that the manga at least in specific is a true continuation of the DB manga, and I use the anime as more evidence for this because, despite going in a different route, the anime uses the manga as source material, instead of the Z anime, which shows how there is actually some actual care about continuity behind the scenes.
Even more evidence for it, in DBS Broly, we don't see Goku using the Kaioken while transformed in a SSJB, The Destruction of Planet Vegeta is the one seen in Minus, and Freeza doesn't recognize Gogeta being a fusion, there is a clear care about continuity here.
This happens because DBS Broly didn't use the anime as source material, the movie uses what is considered to be the TRUE STORY as source material, and the true story is the Super Manga, which is officially canon to the DB manga.
"But Goku remembers Ribrianne in the movie", I don't recall if he sees her in the manga, but in case he didn't, that could very well be Toei playing around, as they like to make references to their previous anime productions, the Super anime for example, despite not canon to the Z anime, has a few references to filler and material that was only seen in the Z anime.
But it's a fact that the Super manga is officially the true continuation to the manga, we tend to think that these companies only think about money and nothing more, which is right, but let's remember that there are artists there, and these artists know what they are saying, including Toriyama and Toyotaro

Spoiler:

Dragon Ball Super's creation had nothing to do with being "the true ultimate sequel to Dragon Ball", at least not by the higher-ups at Toei. They were concerned solely with how much profit they could make out of it, to the point they left the staff to rot, just like you said. It was so bad Toriyama himself ended up complaining about.

That's why I said that the Super Anime is not canon, Toei's work is a ramification of the manga, it's its own thing, in the other side though, Toriyama himself said that the Super manga is the perfect continuation to his manga, which only reinforces my point about the Super manga being the true story.

Spoiler:

Now, about Daima (finally getting back on topic), the sole fact that Daima so far attempts to be canon to Super manga shows that there is a true story that continues the DB manga, Daima wants to be canon to the Super manga which is canon to the DB manga, Super manga is part of the true story and Daima will be as well unless the next episodes say the opposite.
That's what I'm talking about, I'm not saying what me or the fandom thinks about the continuity, I'm simply saying what was officially stated and considered by Toriyama himself and the rest of the production team, that is the reality, if Toriyama said that Super isn't canon, I would've said it, but he didn't, Super is part of the true story, at least the manga.
I'm not sure if Daima will receive the same treatment, we know that the animated productions aren't canon to the manga, all of the movies got their own manga version (including Broly, which was unseen, but we could see that it was different from the movie), Kami to Kami was probably originally made to be canon to the DB manga, but once the DBS manga arrived, they discarded the movie and now only manga BoG is canon, Super Hero has its own manga version too, I believe that maybe the Fukkatsu no 'F' movie is the only animated production that is canon to the manga, as both movie and manga are identical (the only differences is that Freeza doesn't knock out Gohan, and Bulma don't use a ice cream to call Whis., the rest is pretty much identical), and the manga was made solely to promote the movie, it's not its own thing like the other movie sagas.
In case I'm correct, then Daima may take the same route and be another animated production to be completely canon to the manga, which wouldn't be surprising as this story was confirmed to have Toriyama's strongest involvement since the revival of the franchise, but Daima can have a manga version too, who knows.
The fact is that so far, the Super Manga is the true continuation of the DB manga, thus making it part of the TRUE STORY, and not another ramification like the other productions, as it's officially considered to be canon to the original manga, it's not supplementary material like some fans say, that is ignoring the facts, and it will remain that way until it's said otherwise.
Though, with Toriyama now gone, we don't know if he would've approved it, so we are in a even more delicate territory now
But Daima at least is going to be part of the true story, being canon to both the Super and DB mangas.

[Grimlock]

Going to back to Super, what I'm saying is that Super is officially considered as a true continuation of the original story, the manga, I'm working here with official information,

Mind to share with us that official information?

[AliTheZombie13]

I can see that what was made since 2013 goes beyond that, for example, after GT ended, from 1998 to 2012, we never got to see the series receiving the same treatment as DB and specially Z, it got very very few videogames (2 or 3?), DB received a lot more

Did it? The original DB was as ignored as GT in the Videogame department.

I think other reason for it is that Toei and Shueisha never considered GT a true sequel, never as a part of that story that ended in 1995.

Shueisha included GT in their "Official Dragon Ball Timeline", so uh...

Super may have "3.5" different continuities, but I can say that the manga at least in specific is a true continuation of the DB manga, and I use the anime as more evidence for this because, despite going in a different route, the anime uses the manga as source material, instead of the Z anime, which shows how there is actually some actual care about continuity behind the scenes.

- In the Super anime, Mr. Satan's filler disciples all make appearances.
- In the Super anime, #18 implies she knows about Maron's existence.
- In all of Super's continuities, Gregory makes an appearance, despite not existing in the original manga.
- In all of Super's continuities, Namekians are drawn with five fingers instead of four, unlike the original manga.
- In the Super manga, Goku states he lived in Mt. Paozu, a location that never existed in the original manga.
- In the Super Hero movie, Goku and Vegeta mention Jiren, despite there not being a movie about the ToP.
- The Super manga in particular either heavily condenses story arcs or outright skips them, relying on the reader to watch the anime and movies to make sense of its own story. That means that Super, the anime, the movies AND the manga are somehow all "canon" at the same time, despite their events playing out differently.

I'm pretty sure there's more and I'm forgetting about them, and I'm pretty sure Daima will bring even more to the table.
Actually, Daima has already begun disrespecting all of Super's continuities by defusing Shin and Kibito from the get-go.

I swear, the "If Super is canon, how does it fit into Daima?" debates are going to become the new "If GT is canon, how does it into Super?" Super doesn't even fit EoZ anymore, so why do you all still care about canon instead of accepting that these are all different continuities is beyond me.

[ZeroNeonix]

Forgive me if someone else already talked about it, but while I enjoyed Daima, there was one detail that seemed like a plot hole to me. That Namekian from Hell who created Hell's Dragon Balls, as well as its three guardians, was brought to Earth to help them collect and reactivate their Dragon Balls. Neva, the Namekian, seems like a willing participant in this, but I'm left wondering...why didn't they just have him give them Hell's Dragon Balls? They kind of just handwave that possibility away with those three powerful guardians, but isn't Neva their creator? Do they not obey him? And if Neva intentionally made it hard for demons to misuse his Dragon Balls, why is he willingly going out of his way to help Gomah? Is he just so senile that he doesn't understand what's going on?

They made a complete fucking mess of the Potara.

Shin and Kibito use Majin Boo to defuse but that contradicts DBS in more than 1 way.

Not necessarily. Super explained that the Potara fusions are temporary for mortals (still hate that, by the way), so we assumed that the explanation of Buu's gasses making Vegito defuse was incorrect. Both could be true. Buu's gasses might have defused Vegito early, even though they would have defused anyway eventually. The only thing is I can't remember if Shin or Kibito ever said how they defused in Super's anime or manga. I feel like they said they used the Dragon Balls, but I might be misremembering. I'm not sure when they would have had the opportunity, with Bulma hogging all the wishes, unless they went to the Namekians.

[Rafa Fast]

Did it? The original DB was as ignored as GT in the Videogame department.

The very first DB game, Tenkaichi Daibouken, Advanced Adventure, Shenron no Nazo, Piccolo Fukkatsu, Gokuden, Super Gokuden, Origins 1 & 2...far more than GT for sure.

Shueisha included GT in their "Official Dragon Ball Timeline", so uh...

Which is a timeline for the events of each anime series, includes Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, the fillers, the Garlic Jr. Movie, GT was confirmed as a sequel to the Z anime, they use a lot of what was written in the Dainzenhuus, which are based in the animes, then they later added the Super anime because it's part of the chronology and it explains the timeline events, and not part of the anime canon, that has nothing to do with what I said about the manga, I said "GT was never meant to be the sequel for that story that ended in 1995" the manga ended in 1995, the anime in 1996 then it was directly followed by GT, which was made as a sequel to it.

- In the Super anime, Mr. Satan's filler disciples all make appearances.

Read latter part of my previous post.

- In the Super anime, #18 implies she knows about Maron's existence.

Read latter part of my previous post.

- In all of Super's continuities, Gregory makes an appearance, despite not existing in the original manga.

Gregory is not in the Super manga nor in the Kami to Kami film, he's only in the Super anime

In all of Super's continuities, Namekians are drawn with five fingers instead of four, unlike the original manga.

Visual thing supposedly made because of a controversy, do you really think that visual details matter for continuity? The anime keeps changing colors and character visuals all the time, sometimes they use colors from Z, sometimes they use manga colors, sometimes a mix of both. The manga takes visuals from the anime from time to time, the anime is more popular, that is never consistent.

In the Super manga, Goku states he lived in Mt. Paozu, a location that never existed in the original manga.

If he lived somewhere it's because a place where he lived exist, why can't him name it?

- In the Super Hero movie, Goku and Vegeta mention Jiren, despite there not being a movie about the ToP.

Happened off-screen, the ToP is mentioned in Broly movie.

- The Super manga in particular either heavily condenses story arcs or outright skips them, relying on the reader to watch the anime and movies to make sense of its own story. That means that Super, the anime, the movies AND the manga are somehow all "canon" at the same time, despite their events playing out differently.

As I said in my previous post, Kami to Kami and Fukkatsu no 'F' movies were originally made to be canon to the manga, but once the Super manga arrived, they discarded them, Fukkatsu no 'F''s manga tells you to watch the movie because the manga is a promotional material. Can't explain what happened to Broly and its lack of a manga version though, so for this one I have no argument, but Kami to Kami and Super Hero still got their manga versions.

Actually, Daima has already begun disrespecting all of Super's continuities by defusing Shin and Kibito from the get-go.

You only watched one peisode, what if they fuse again in the end of the story?

I swear, the "If Super is canon, how does it fit into Daima?" debates are going to become the new "If GT is canon, how does it into Super?" Super doesn't even fit EoZ anymore, so why do you all still care about canon instead of accepting that these are all different continuities is beyond me.

I don't want to say that you're ignorant, sorry, but I just feel that you skipped through almost everything I wrote in my previous post, I explained 99% of the points that you brought here, again, if you don't care about continuity and don't want to waste your time with it, it's fine, but for me makes no sense to say that we should "accept that these are all different continuities" when the official information try to tell us a message, that message specifically being that Toyotaro's manga is the true sequel to Toriyama's manga, that's what they want us to accept, and not what you said, as I said to another user before, the fandom wouldn't be discussing about if didn't exist, the sole reason we are discussing it is because Super wants to be canon to the manga, the Super manga is officially stated to be a genuine sequel to Toriyama's manga, why do you think that there are still discussions to this day regarding how the hell the Old Z Movies officially fit into the DB-Z-GT anime continuity even with their huge contradictions?
I don't see what's wrong with it.

Going to back to Super, what I'm saying is that Super is officially considered as a true continuation of the original story, the manga, I'm working here with official information,

Mind to share with us that official information?

The images in my previous posts, but I was referring to the manga only, sorry if not specifying made you think that I was including the anime too, I'm just too lazy to write "Super Manga" everytime XP

[anubisj]

I don't really get why people are so obsessed with the "canon". Not even Toei itself cares about it as much as you. They, and Toriyama too, retcon things every now and then, according to the necessities of the story or their whims.

I mean, sure, Super was the main series or "Face " of the franchise for some time, but I dont think it was meant as the "main continuation " any more than gt or daima, and if it was, that can change and in a couple of years they can retcon super entirely if they want, as they are already starting to do using daima.

I mean, I just cant buy that all of that happened in the socalled "peaceful years" before eoz. The super manga contradicts the anime. Both contradict dbz. Daima contradicts super. Gt contradicts Daima (well, not so far maybe, but they probably dont mind if it contradicts or not, point stands).

I think what Toei considers canon should be irrelevant to the fans, as it is irrelevant to Toei themselves. Its wayyyyy more important, imo, that the quality of the content is high, that it makes you enjoy the time spent watching, maybe reminding you of why you like this franchise in the first place, than it being "canon" or "the main continuation".

[Envy]

So, let me get this straight, the Demon realm gets a new king and that new king sees the power of Goku and the rest of the cast and is very worried about the scenario that they would ever have any reason to enter the Demon realm and fight him. In thinking of that, he decides that he will find the Dragon Balls and wish for the cast to become young, and thus weaker. BUT... in doing so he just gave them THE reason to come after him.

Now maybe this is just my bad memory showing (it's been a very long time since I've watched or read much of Dragon Ball's story), but throughout the whole series how much has the Demon realm even been the focus of the cast? It just seems to me like it isn't natural that it often would be based off of the past of the story that I recall... So that makes this more silly. He gave them a reason to come after him that wasn't there before...

[No9tro]

So, let me get this straight, the Demon realm gets a new king and that new king sees the power of Goku and the rest of the cast and is very worried about the scenario that they would ever have any reason to enter the Demon realm and fight him. In thinking of that, he decides that he will find the Dragon Balls and wish for the cast to become young, and thus weaker. BUT... in doing so he just gave them THE reason to come after him.

That's indeed exactly what happens. It's not exactly rational but Gomah seems to be intended as kind of an idiot who makes things worse for himself. He is also clearly being manipulated by Dr. Arinsu who I'd imagine has her own reasons for wanting Gomah to provoke the main cast. It would all be rather contrived feeling if not for the fact that Dr. Arinsu seems to be deliberately contriving events to suit her needs.

[tonysoprano300]

Also...why would making the cast kids again mean that they are just destined to be weaker? DB has never really tried to insinuate that kid bodies are just inherently less capable than adult bodies. This is the same the same series that depicted Vegito being able to retain all of his strength in the form of a piece of candy. Its a minor point, but that confused me a little bit.

Regardless, still excited to see this story unfold.

[Goten_jr]

I don't really get why people are so obsessed with the "canon". Not even Toei itself cares about it as much as you. They, and Toriyama too, retcon things every now and then, according to the necessities of the story or their whims.

I mean, sure, Super was the main series or "Face " of the franchise for some time, but I dont think it was meant as the "main continuation " any more than gt or daima, and if it was, that can change and in a couple of years they can retcon super entirely if they want, as they are already starting to do using daima.

I mean, I just cant buy that all of that happened in the socalled "peaceful years" before eoz. The super manga contradicts the anime. Both contradict dbz. Daima contradicts super. Gt contradicts Daima (well, not so far maybe, but they probably dont mind if it contradicts or not, point stands).

I think what Toei considers canon should be irrelevant to the fans, as it is irrelevant to Toei themselves. Its wayyyyy more important, imo, that the quality of the content is high, that it makes you enjoy the time spent watching, maybe reminding you of why you like this franchise in the first place, than it being "canon" or "the main continuation".

It's pretty simple People care about canon because they want one single consistent Main Story line, where everything is connected to each other, in Animanga this usually is the Original Manga written by the Author.But The Problem is that Toriyama after 1995 was never the same way invested into Dragon Ball as he was when he wrote the Manga, which resulted in DBSuper(Midquel) which Manga and Anime versions are completely out of Sync,inconsistencies also some contradictions with the Original Manga, Daima another (Anime-Only) Midquel placed before Battle of Gods and currently contradicts DB Super plus DBGT an Anime Only Sequel to the actual End of Z but does not fit into either Super's or Daima's Continuity and has the least Toriyama involvement.

[Ronin]

Not much happened in this episode. It was just setting up the premise which we pretty much already knew about from the trailers. I liked it for the most part, but I have a few nitpicks:

The animation is still a little whacky in parts with the CGI. Most of it didn't bother me, but the flashy lights at the birthday party were a little distracting.

Speaking of the birthday party, I dunno why they couldn't find a different way to introduce main cast. We've seen everyone gathered together at Capsule Corp with Goku and Vegeta sparring above West City (always thought that was weird) multiple times now and it would've been nice to see them together in a different way. Or maybe they didn't all need to be gathered together in the first place. Gave me Super vibes.

I hope they tone down on the gags. Never found them funny, but I can get over it if as long as they don't keep doing it every 5 minutes. If you're gonna have them, at least make them clever.

I thought Neva's character design was boring. He's dressed almost exactly like Dende. I know Namekians are supposed to be a lot alike, but if you're gonna have some super old Namekian who lives in the Demon Realm and has special techniques; I mean, that's just begging for a cool character design. At least give him some cool looking clothes.

Didn't like how they became kids again because of a wish from the dragon balls. I thought it would've been neat if they used demon magic or whatever magic Babidi used. I was thinking that the incantation that's chanted in the trailer is what was gonna turn them into kids.

I thought the music at during the last scene didn't fit well considering the situation at hand. Would've been better if they played ominous music and then wait for the end credits to roll to play the Daima theme.


Despite all of those nitpicks, I'm still super excited for this. I love the premise and if the rest of the series is good, these minor complaints will mean nothing compared to everything else I could like about it.

[Goten_jr]

That is simply untrue. "Super" was originally just another Z movie, written by someone who wasn't Toriyama.
Dragon Ball was dead to Toriyama before, it died in the 90's and all he wanted was for it to stay dead definitively.
He received phone calls asking him to write a new Dragon Ball, but he refused each and every time.
Toriyama was very clear about it: Dragon Ball was dead to him and he didn't want it to be continued.

...Then he saw Evolution, then he was asked to approve of the script for this new Z movie, and he decided very hesitantly to come back, if only to damage control what they were doing to his legacy.

Toriyama wrote BoG and RoF. At first, it was just the movies. But Toei saw how much cash they were making with it, and haphazardly approved the production of a new anime, that being Super, with barely any pre-production time. Quality didn't matter, that was a sentiment held by many of those who were working on Super at the time. What mattered was that Dragon Ball was profitable again and they were going to milk it for all it was worth.

I'm sorry, I'm not writing any of this to invalidate your love for Super, it's clearly something that brings joy to your life and I really don't want to warp your view of it, but what led to Super's creation was ultimately corporate greed, not really a desire to "Make the ultimate canon Dragon Ball product."

Lord knows if Evolution wasn't a thing, that Z movie would've been released as is and Super probably would've either never existed or would've been entirely different, written solely by Toei with Toriyama's approval much like it was for GT.

I do feel it's unhealthy to be worrying and stressing yourself out about how "valid" is a work of fiction. At the end of the day, it's a made-up fantasy story, created purely to entertain and bring joy to our lives, not the Bible or a scientific report.

I do feel it's even more unhealthy to perpetuate the idea that "There is only one true continuity. Don't even bother trying to argue there's more, that's non-canon and stupid!" Not only is that entirely false, given that Dragon Ball has shown time and again it has SEVERAL different continuities, but it often leads to toxic behavior like this:

"People who enjoy Dragon Ball GT, please understand that your opinions, just like the show itself along with your entire life, is worthless and will never matter to the source material." (A post I have seen once with several thousands of likes on Social Media.)

If you really want to call one the "main unequivocally true continuity", that's the original manga, and only the original manga. Everything else, including Super itself, add details that directly contradict it.

Sorry, but I think I expressed myself wrong, my feelings don't really mean much for the subject, I love GT too, so in particular I wouldn't mind if was somehow canon, I would've liked it (actually not, as that series ended too fast and the story is over), I go by what mostly the official artistic choices made by them lead to, yes there is a lot of corporate stuff mixed in too, but I can see that what was made since 2013 goes beyond that, for example, after GT ended, from 1998 to 2012, we never got to see the series receiving the same treatment as DB and specially Z, it got very very few videogames (2 or 3?), DB received a lot more, and as far as I know, that show was less popular than GT in the 2000's, at least outside of Japan, you can say GT's poor reception could be the reason for it, but I think other reason for it is that Toei and Shueisha never considered GT a true sequel, never as a part of that story that ended in 1995.
I know very well about the story behind Kami to Kami, but I refer to the final results only, how the movie was marketed, presented and treated, and what I saw is that they wanted us to believe that this new story was the true follow up to the story of Z, no wonder why they called it "Z" (there are some confusions with the brand in that time too, but they were very clever when using "Z")
it's unlike GT, which was considered just as a continuation of Toei's animated run in the 90's, that's what I'm talking about, how they treat things, I'll give another example
The 13 Old DBZ Movies, despite all their contradictions, inconsistences and story elements that are just impossible to exist in the anime, they are all considered officially canon to the anime, yeah, we may not agree about it, but they somehow are, that's why the Garlic Jr. Saga happens, that's why we see Coola in GT. Despite how careless Toei was here, we can see that they at least had some sense of continuity in their heads, as the 3 original DB movies and the 1996 movie officially aren't canon to the anime, they're all stories in a different continuity, the first 3 share the same continuity, while 1996 is another reboot.

Going to back to Super, what I'm saying is that Super is officially considered as a true continuation of the original story, the manga, I'm working here with official information, GT officially was never considered to be a true continuation of the original manga, but a continuation to the DB->Z anime & Movies continuity, and that continuity was always separate from the manga.

Tbh I genuinely think that GT's Status of canon at this Point is completely irrelevant when they keep placing Story after Story in the 10 Year Time Gap. It does not seem like Modern Dragon Ball is going past the End of Z anytime soon lol esspecially when we litterally just got a midquel within a midquel placed before BOG.

So as long as GT does not get chronologically overwritten it kinda stays there as the only official Storyline post EOZ in Animanga form, even though it got contradicted by Super and Daima.

[AliTheZombie13]

You only watched one peisode, what if they fuse again in the end of the story?

Why would they when they very clearly demonstrated they don't like to be fused?
Why would they even ask to use the Dragon Balls in Super, something their superior completely disapproves of, when they had already found an easier caveat in Boo?

for me makes no sense to say that we should "accept that these are all different continuities" when the official information try to tell us a message, that message specifically being that Toyotaro's manga is the true sequel to Toriyama's manga, that's what they want us to accept,

OK, if you're so adamant about it. Do tell me, do link me the source when anybody of importance, be it Toei, Toyotaro, Toriyama or Shueisha, have come forward and said: "Dragon Ball Super is the actual sequel to the Dragon Ball manga made in the 80-90s, and only the Dragon Ball Super manga specifically, the anime doesn't count!"

Because everywhere I look, the manga is treated as promotional material for the anime, not the other way around:

"Getting to see a new DB anime series every week makes me too happy! With this comicalization, I want to make my own small contribution to the excitement, so everyone please check out the manga, too!" - Toyotaro

"The anime series from 2013 onward has been a casual continuation of my original manga. For the first-time Dragon Ball viewer, it might be a little hard to figure out the various character relationships..." - Toriyama

So uh... How can you tell me so firmly and boldly that I'm wrong and that the anime isn't canon when Toriyama himself officially calls it "a casual continuation of my original manga"?

and not what you said, as I said to another user before, the fandom wouldn't be discussing about if didn't exist, the sole reason we are discussing it is because Super wants to be canon to the manga, the Super manga is officially stated to be a genuine sequel to Toriyama's manga, why do you think that there are still discussions to this day regarding how the hell the Old Z Movies officially fit into the DB-Z-GT anime continuity even with their huge contradictions?

The fans can discuss whatever they want, but there's a huge difference between a healthy discussion and spreading misinformation. For example, the people on YouTube can make several power-scaling charts detailing the exact amount of Battle Power each character has after the Namek arc. They're allowed to speculate about that, but the reality is that after Namek, it doesn't matter anymore. Just like "canon" stopped mattering once the DB manga was over.

Unless you can link me a source when somebody says, "Super is the one true continuation of DB", then it was never meant to be treated as such.

[JulieYBM]

Continuity doesn't really matter until it matters, so I really don't see why need to go over and over whether anything matters when it isn't immediately relevant to the plot. Heck, even aside from Super, Daima doesn't seem any more reverrent of the 1984-1995 comic's story, either, so I don't really see the point in somehow singling out Super.

[AliTheZombie13]

Continuity doesn't really matter until it matters, so I really don't see why need to go over and over whether anything matters when it isn't immediately relevant to the plot. Heck, even aside from Super, Daima doesn't seem any more reverrent of the 1984-1995 comic's story, either, so I don't really see the point in somehow singling out Super.

At the end of the day, I don't really care. If Daima ends with a cliffhanger of Beerus and Whis arriving on Earth, I'll just shrug and say, "Oh, I guess it's connected to Super, after all." Though the Potara defusion makes me question that.

[JulieYBM]

Continuity doesn't really matter until it matters, so I really don't see why need to go over and over whether anything matters when it isn't immediately relevant to the plot. Heck, even aside from Super, Daima doesn't seem any more reverrent of the 1984-1995 comic's story, either, so I don't really see the point in somehow singling out Super.

At the end of the day, I don't really care. If Daima ends with a cliffhanger of Beerus and Whis arriving on Earth, I'll just shrug and say, "Oh, I guess it's connected to Super, after all." Though the Potara defusion makes me question that.

I sincerely doubt that it's—of all things—going to be a silly Potara story thread that is the production's grand way of saying, "This has nothing to do with Dragon Ball Super!" It's just the silliest thing in the world and I just don't see this being a thing that is going to happen.

[Rafa Fast]

I don't really get why people are so obsessed with the "canon".

I can 100% understand why people like you don't care about continuity and just want to enjoy the show, thinking about it can really make someone go crazy.
What I don't understand though is why you don't understand why there are people who care so much about continuity, the answer is in your very own question, it's so simple to understand, there's nothing absurd about it.

Not even Toei itself cares about it as much as you.

Do they? They demonstrated that they care multiple times before, as I explained in my other post:

They made the first 3 DBs movie separate from the DB anime canon, then, they made the Z anime as a canon sequel to the DB anime, then, they made the Z movies canon to the Z anime, then, Z ended, and they made its canon sequel, which was GT, and the 1996 movie was a reboot that wasn't canon to any of these.
Then, when the 2008 OVA and Kami to Kami arrived, they made them as sequels to the DB manga, they literally discarded the continuity they had in 80-90's because for them, GT finished that continuity, they were over with it. Then when the Super anime arrived, they made it different from the two new movies, but still kept it as a sequel to DB manga.

Now, look, at this and tell me if Toei didn't care a lot about continuity, it's too complex!

I mean, sure, Super was the main series or "Face " of the franchise for some time, but I dont think it was meant as the "main continuation " any more than gt or daima.

You can think what you want, what I said multiple times here is that our opinions or what we think about each element doesn't matter for this subject, what I'm trying to say here isn't what I think or my opinion, if I liked GT more than Super I still would've said the same things, what I'm saying here is the reality, you don't think that Super it was meant as the "main continuation" any more than GT, which it's okay, your opinion, but the reality is that actually it was meant to be a main continuation more than GT, actually, GT was never meant to be a continuation, at least not to Toriyama's story, I said here multiple times, GT from the start was made to be solely a sequel to the Dragon Ball->Dragon Ball Z anime continuity from Toei and nothing more, they never mentioned the manga or anything else, GT is a sequel to the Z anime, Toei's story, as it was officially said by Takao Koyama

Spoiler:

That can change and in a couple of years they can retcon super entirely if they want

I already said something similar.

the Super Manga is the true continuation of the DB manga, thus making it part of the TRUE STORY, and not another ramification like the other productions, as it's officially considered to be canon to the original manga, it's not supplementary material like some fans say, that is ignoring the facts, and it will remain that way until it's said otherwise.

(Ignore the "manga" after "Super", that was a mistake, think of Super as a whole)

as they are already starting to do using daima.

You only watched one episode, Daima hasn't contradicted Super yet.

1. The super manga contradicts the anime 2.Both contradict dbz. 3. Daima contradicts super. 4. Gt contradicts Daima

1. Of course they contradict each other, Toei is Toei and Toyotaro is Toyotaro, there is all that story about Toriyama writing a basic plot for each saga and then sending it to Toei and Toyotaro for them to work these stories in their own ways, no need to explain. 2. Not sure what you mean with "dbz", you mean the Z anime? If that's the case, then of course it contradicts it, Super and Daima aren't meant to be sequels to the Z anime by Toei. 3. Again, you watched only one episode. 4. GT is a sequel to a separate continuity created by Toei in the 90's that has nothing to do with the story Toriyama tried to tell in the modern days.

I think what Toei considers canon should be irrelevant to the fans, as it is irrelevant to Toei themselves.

Again, your opinion, but the reality is that continuity actually matters for them as I demonstrated multiple times here, if you don't think it's relevant then fine, but the reality is that a evident care is put into the chronology, even though sometimes it gets really messy (mostly by Toei's side, but it would be a lie to say that they don't try), and if they show to care about continuity, I mean, I wasn't even focused on Toei, but mostly on Toriyama, but let's say all of them, then there is a good reason for so many discussions about the continuity to exist, they exist because the official material give us a reason to debate it, it's so simple, I really don't get what's so hard to understand here.

So as long as GT does not get chronologically overwritten

That would only happen if Toei decided to make a new sequel to the Z anime that ignores GT, that still has to happen.

it kinda stays there as the only official Storyline post EOZ in Animanga form, even though it got contradicted by Super and Daima.

GT wasn't contradicted by Super and Daima because the latter two aren't in the same continuity as the DB anime-Z Anime & Movies-GT continuity, GT continues being the untouched perfect ending for the 80/90's Toei anime continuity.

OK, if you're so adamant about it. Do tell me, do link me the source when anybody of importance, be it Toei, Toyotaro, Toriyama or Shueisha, have come forward and said: "Dragon Ball Super is the actual sequel to the Dragon Ball manga made in the 80-90s, and only the Dragon Ball Super manga specifically, the anime doesn't count!"
The fans can discuss whatever they want, but there's a huge difference between a healthy discussion and spreading misinformation.

When I make a mistake like that, specially when it's a misinformation, I can't deny it, so I apologize, but I can't provide the evidence for the Super Anime specifically not being canon to the DB manga, one of my sources wasn't reliable and I thought it was, so I'm sorry for this specific part.
The "Dragon Ball Super manga is the sequel to the Dragon Ball manga" part is still valid though:
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... k-version/

Toriyama:
I never thought an artist like you would come along to draw the continuation of my story!

Because everywhere I look, the manga is treated as promotional material for the anime, not the other way around:

The manga was released first, both anime and manga contribute to each other, they help sell each other, what happens though is that the anime is much more popular than the manga, so the manga will naturally receive such treatment, but it's its own thing, unlike the Resurrection 'F' manga, which was solely made to be a promotional material for the movie and nothing more as the story wasn't even finished.

"The anime series from 2013 onward has been a casual continuation of my original manga. For the first-time Dragon Ball viewer, it might be a little hard to figure out the various character relationships..." - Toriyama

So uh... How can you tell me so firmly and boldly that I'm wrong and that the anime isn't canon when Toriyama himself officially calls it "a casual continuation of my original manga"?

I already apologized for the part regarding the Super anime so I don't have much to say about this, though I said multiple times too that the Super anime uses Toriyama's manga as source for everything pre-Beerus, instead of the DB & Z animes for example, which makes the belief about Super as a whole being a continuation valid, but it's important to note though that he says "2013", which dates back to Battle of Gods being the original sequel to the DB manga even though there was no manga for that story at the time.

Unless you can link me a source when somebody says, "Super is the one true continuation of DB", then it was never meant to be treated as such.

I failed to prove that only Super manga is the canon story, but Super being the "one" true continuation of the DB manga is right, but It's important to remember that this can also be said because Super is the only true continuation that we have, the other being the 2008 Tarble story and now probably Daima, which are connected to Super, the only other "sequel" we had was GT and GT was never meant to be a continuation of the DB manga, but of the Z/Toei old anime continuity only, that makes GT unable to be considered a sequel like Super, as one was made to be a sequel to the old anime continuity that was separate from the manga, while the other one was made to be a sequel to the original manga.

Anyway, I'll finish with this subject here, you can still reply to my post if you want and talk more about it, but I think I already wrote too much about a subject that has nothing to do with Daima and I don't think I have anything more to say about it, I don't want to go off-topic anymore.
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Why would they when they very clearly demonstrated they don't like to be fused?

What if they are forced to fuse again in the end to fight a powerful enemy or because of something else?

Why would they even ask to use the Dragon Balls in Super, something their superior completely disapproves of, when they had already found an easier caveat in Boo?

What if they use the excuse that Boo is sleeping again?

Also I need to say, but Goku forgetting about how they could defuse using Boo's gas can become even less problematic, wasn't Boo already there in the U6 Tournament before the Kaioshin arrived? I don't see the problem if they can use another option if the other one isn't available for them, and the anime implies that Kibitoshin was still fused until somewhere in the Freeza Resurrection saga, so it kinda works for me, the manga gives a better explanation though.