What does "Daizenshuu" mean to you?

[Terra-jin]

I've always assumed that Cold has the same line of transformations as Freeza. If this is true, than Cold's second form is "a bit inferior" to Freeza's full power... Cold's final form would be a whole new level of power. Of course, there isn't any direct proof of this, but since the two are of the same race, it seems logical to assume they have the same forms.

Why didn't Cold transform against Trunks, you ask? A combination of underestimation on Cold's part and Trunks not giving Cold the chance to transform. Now, in the original history, Goku was the one to fight Freeza and Cold. I'll bet you Goku wanted to see Cold's full power for himself!

Then why did Cold act so subordinate-like around Freeza, even allowing him to give orders and proclaim himself to be the strongest? I think Cold just had a laid-back attitude towards Universal domination. After centuries as the supreme ruler, he spawned Freeza and let him take care of business. It's as if he's retired. Then again, he still has the Daio title that even Freeza doesn't have.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Huh, I still think that's still really weird. Did Viz really spell it "crain?"

Beats me. I copied it off of a website, since I couldn't locate the issue and copy it myself. I don't even recall if VIZ makes note of who Tsuru-Sennin is. It could have been a mistake of the person who typed it's part.

...On that note, I should have taken my own advice and not automatically written off something coming from the GameFAQs forums.

Hey, it was coming from me, so it really came from Daiz EX!


...

Sort of.

[Kaboom]

I've always assumed that Cold has the same line of transformations as Freeza. If this is true, than Cold's second form is "a bit inferior" to Freeza's full power... Cold's final form would be a whole new level of power. Of course, there isn't any direct proof of this, but since the two are of the same race, it seems logical to assume they have the same forms.

Why didn't Cold transform against Trunks, you ask? A combination of underestimation on Cold's part and Trunks not giving Cold the chance to transform. Now, in the original history, Goku was the one to fight Freeza and Cold. I'll bet you Goku wanted to see Cold's full power for himself!

Then why did Cold act so subordinate-like around Freeza, even allowing him to give orders and proclaim himself to be the strongest? I think Cold just had a laid-back attitude towards Universal domination. After centuries as the supreme ruler, he spawned Freeza and let him take care of business. It's as if he's retired. Then again, he still has the Daio title that even Freeza doesn't have.

Or perhaps Kold had less total power than Freeza, so he had fewer restrictive forms. The one we saw him in may have been the only one he had (aside from his "true" form).

[Godo]

text...

Cold was not stronger than Freeza. Remember when he asked Trunks to join him and replace Freeza? "I want the strongest power in the universe to stay in my family" I think he said.
At least in the Swedish translation of the manga.

[FindKenshi]

How did this topic turn into King Cold vs Freeza? Oh, right. That's my fault for bringing it up. But what I was really interested in was what the Daizenshuu has to say, not which you personally believe.

edit
Well... *sighs*, ok I'll participate.

My personal theory is that Cold can neither transform, nor surpass his own son in power. First of all, lets look at Cold's behavior the entire time during those chapters. (By the way, I am always using the manga as my source for producing these arguments.)

Cold seemed to defer to Freeza. Almost as if he was taking orders, not quite, but almost. When they arrive three hours ahead of Goku, Cold is asking Freeza: "Will you wait for the Super Saiyan?" (bolding added for emphasis) For the "head of the family", he sure cares about what Freeza wants to do. It's almost like he's deferring to him.

Next, lets look at Freeza's behavior. Freeza calls himself the most powerful being in the universe right in front of his father. No one disputes this claim, least of all Cold. If Cold was really superior to his son, I doubt behavior like that would be tolerated, especially given the ruthlessness of this family. (Cold laughed and congratulated Trunks for slaughtering his son.)

So, then we get to review the confrontation between Cold and Trunks. Cold saw his son die, and then instantly seemed to know he could never beat Trunks. If Cold was beyond that of Freeza's power, would he really resort to such a desperate, and stupid, plan like that? He placed all of his hopes into the "fact" that Trunks's sword was the source of his power. When this plan failed, all Cold could do was beg for his life, like a dog. (Cold: "WAIT!!!!") There is also the fact that Trunks gave Cold all the time in the world to make the first move. So, I do not see any arguments about "Trunks didn't give him time to transform." as truly being valid.

Finally, I like to end my case on an artwork note, since this is indeed a manga. The argument has always been used that Cold looks like Freeza's second form, so that it's likely he could transform. I disagree. Look at Cold very carefully. His arms and legs lack the "segmented lines" that Freeza has. Freeza lacked this trait, only while he was in his true form. This could very well be an indication that Cold was not suppressing his form, that he was in his true form.

As for why Freeza's true form does not look that similar to Cold's true form? Just use your imagination. A theory I'm fond of is that Freeza is simply more advanced then his father, a true freak of nature. The next step up in evolution, if you will. That could be why Cold looks similar to the "second form." Maybe as Freeza creates these "masks" to suppress his power, he's really just devolving his body into a more primitive form.


Well, that's been my case of "Freeza > Cold" for a long time now.

Anyway, lets keep it relevant and steer this topic back on track, I have another question about the Daizenshuu. Since these "extra tidbits" of info the Daiz presents, like Tien and the whole "alien thing", seem to be such a controversial aspect of the Daizenshuu, among fans; I find myself wondering: What other tidbits or factoids do the Daizenshuu present that weren't really from the anime or manga? The alien thing certainly wasn’t stated in either anime, or manga, so I wonder what else does the Daizenshuu present that would be considered “new information”? Is the Tenshinhan thing one of the only tidbits of that nature, or are there more?

[SonEric84]

Q: What's up with the third eye on my main man Tenshinhan? Is Tenshinhan human?
A: In certain parts of Asia, beings with a third eye on their forehead are thought to be godlike and are said to possess the power of true seeing. It seems that Tenshinhan, who was raised to be evil by the evil Tsuru-Sen'nin [Crain Hermit], lost the ability to use the myriad powers of his third eye for good purposes.

It seems to me that if Toriyama intended Tenshinhan to be an alien that it would have at least been mentioned in this answer, seeing as how the Daizenshuu states the aliens had three eyes. True, it doesn't flat out say that he's a human but if he were from an alien race with three eyes I don't think it would be left out in the answer.

[Godo]

But what I was really interested in was what the Daizenshuu has to say, not which you personally believe.

Don't whine. If someone cares it will eventually come up. Just wait a moment.

[FindKenshi]

But what I was really interested in was what the Daizenshuu has to say, not which you personally believe.

Don't whine. If someone cares it will eventually come up. Just wait a moment.

Ha, ha. I'm not whining, I just don't want to see this get closed again. Fine, though, I even participated in the discussion, look at my edited post. There, no whining here.

[Godo]

But what I was really interested in was what the Daizenshuu has to say, not which you personally believe.

Don't whine. If someone cares it will eventually come up. Just wait a moment.

Ha, ha. I'm not whining, I just don't want to see this get closed again. Fine, though, I even participated in the discussion, look at my edited post. There, no whining here.

Wow, nice move! I didn't notice. Nice points also.

Anyone that can help with FindKenshi's request?

[TripleRach]

Anyway, lets keep it relevant and steer this topic back on track, I have another question about the Daizenshuu. Since these "extra tidbits" of info the Daiz presents, like Tenshinhan and the whole "alien thing", seem to be such a controversial aspect of the Daizenshuu, among fans; I find myself wondering: What other tidbits or factoids do the Daizenshuu present that weren't really from the anime or manga? The alien thing certainly wasn’t stated in either anime, or manga, so I wonder what else does the Daizenshuu present that would be considered “new information”? Is the Tenshinhan thing one of the only tidbits of that nature, or are there more?

I've only recently gotten the books myself, so I've only skimmed through them so far, but the only things I can think of besides that are heights and birthdates and such.

There are other things mentioned from Toriyama himself, like what happened to Lunch, and who #17 and #18 were before Gero turned them into cyborgs. And there's things like the maps of Earth, and the universe, and the deity hierarchy (which is one thing that has been grossly misinterpreted among English fansites).

Oh, and I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the newer official guide books (Landmark, Tenkaichi Densetsu, etc) also list Tenshinhan as an alien.

[FindKenshi]

There are other things mentioned from Toriyama himself, like what happened to Lunch, and who #17 and #18 were before Gero turned them into cyborgs.

That sounds really interesting. I wish for you to tell me all about those. Yeah, yeah, I know--buy the books Findkenshi! But honestly, I can't read Japanese... learning how to do so would take time and money probably. Neither of which I have a significant ammount of.

Oh, and I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the newer official guide books (Landmark, Tenkaichi Densetsu, etc) also list Tenshinhan as an alien.

These, I have not even heard of. Any info on that? I guess I'll check out DaizEx main page here, there's probably an entry for them.

[VegettoEX]

Oh, and I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the newer official guide books (Landmark, Tenkaichi Densetsu, etc) also list Tenshinhan as an alien.

These, I have not even heard of. Any info on that? I guess I'll check out DaizEx main page here, there's probably an entry for them.

They're super-recent, all things considered... still in-print, on the shelves at Japanese bookstores, etc.

We've got all the cover images over on the (aptly-titled) "Covers" page, we reference a good bit of interesting history & material over in our Bardock "Tidbit", and there will continue to be more to come as the years go on.

Something I've been meaning to make mention of is how amusing I find it that I still only ever see the word "daizenshuu" tossed around when it comes to reference guides and items of contention. They seem to be the mystical items that certain sects of fandom know nothing about (bring in the "fear of the unknown" theory, here), blah blah blah... And at the same time, there are all these recent books staring them in the face that they do have disgustingly easy access to.

We covered all of the reference guides (daizenshuu, DBGT Perfect Files, LANDMARK, FOREVER, Densetsu books, etc.) pretty in-depth way the Hell back on episode #0041 of the podcast. Kanzentai also has a bit of daizenshuu information available.

[FindKenshi]

They're super-recent, all things considered... still in-print, on the shelves at Japanese bookstores, etc.

Sounds intriguing.

... And at the same time, there are all these recent books staring them in the face that they do have disgustingly easy access to.

Well, I wouldn't call it "disgustingly easy access." If you don't live in Japan, or know someone who does; it's not like these get advertised for or sold here in America. This is the first time I've heard of them. There's also the fact that even owning the books means nothing, if you can't read them.

We covered all of the reference guides (daizenshuu, DBGT Perfect Files, LANDMARK, FOREVER, Densetsu books, etc.) pretty in-depth way the Hell back on episode #0041 of the podcast. Kanzentai also has a bit of daizenshuu information available.

I guess I really have to start in the beginning and view all of the "podcast" episodes then. I have yet to experience one. I've been meaning to, just haven't gotten around to it.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

... And at the same time, there are all these recent books staring them in the face that they do have disgustingly easy access to.

Well, I wouldn't call it "disgustingly easy access." If you don't live in Japan, or know someone who does; it's not like these get advertised for or sold here in America. This is the first time I've heard of them. There's also the fact that even owning the books means nothing, if you can't read them.

If you happen to live near a Bookoff, chances are there'll be at least one of the books there, for relatively cheap, too.

[VegettoEX]

Well, I wouldn't call it "disgustingly easy access." If you don't live in Japan, or know someone who does; it's not like these get advertised for or sold here in America. This is the first time I've heard of them.

http://www.bookoff.co.jp/en/
http://www.kinokuniya.com/
http://www.sasugabooks.com/

I guess I really have to start in the beginning and view all of the "podcast" episodes then. I have yet to experience one. I've been meaning to, just haven't gotten around to it.

I don't know if I can recommend that... I'd say stay current and work your way backwards, choosing choice episodes . The beginning is... uhh... rough? ^^;;

[TripleRach]

There are other things mentioned from Toriyama himself, like what happened to Lunch, and who #17 and #18 were before Gero turned them into cyborgs.

That sounds really interesting. I wish for you to tell me all about those. Yeah, yeah, I know--buy the books Findkenshi! But honestly, I can't read Japanese... learning how to do so would take time and money probably. Neither of which I have a significant ammount of.

Gah, as soon as I opened my book to the page, my cat decided to sit on the book, so I can't look at the text directly. But well, off memory, the Lunch blurb pretty much says she ran off to chase after Tenshinhan (as Kuririn tells Buruma in the beginning of the Saiya-jin arc), and never found him because he and Chaozu move around a lot. She was going to appear at the end of the manga to contribute to the final Genkidama, but he chose to draw #17 instead. #17's dialogue was Lunch's, though. (And that makes a lot more sense, since I don't think #17 should even know what Gokuu's voice sounds like. )

The one about #17 and #18 pretty much says that they were delinquent twins who happened to get kidnapped by Gero and turned into cyborgs.

[Olivier Hague]

Something I've been meaning to make mention of is how amusing I find it that I still only ever see the word "daizenshuu" tossed around when it comes to reference guides and items of contention. They seem to be the mystical items that certain sects of fandom know nothing about (bring in the "fear of the unknown" theory, here), blah blah blah... And at the same time, there are all these recent books staring them in the face that they do have disgustingly easy access to.

Well, the Daizenshû are the better guides by far, in my opinion. ^^;

he chose to draw #17 instead. #17's dialogue was Lunch's, though. (And that makes a lot more sense, since I don't think #17 should even know what Gokuu's voice sounds like. )

He should know, actually, courtesy of "Babidi TV". ^^
But yeah, it says it's been a long time since he's heard that voice... which still isn't true.

[Rocketman]

He should know, actually, courtesy of "Babidi TV". ^^
But yeah, it says it's been a long time since he's heard that voice... which still isn't true.

Either it was part of the data Gero programmed him with, or he heard Goku's voice while he was part of Cell.

[FindKenshi]

Couldn't he be referring to Dr. Gero's data? All those recorded fights from the spybots? It's possible this data was inserted onto a "hard disk" that's implanted into their brains?

#18 refers to Trunks "not being in her data." doesn't she? If that's true, then he has indeed heard Goku's voice before, a great many times. (edit: Rocketman, you beat me to the explanation! I guess great minds think alike?)

Anyway, I've never ever heard of a store called Bookoff (which means they obviously do not have them where I live), but I did not expect stores around here to sell imported Japanese books. (I do live in America by the way, not sure if you assumed I did, or not).

Well my main point still stands, either way. Even if you can easily go out and buy them, that doesn't do any good. I can't read Japanese, neither can a lot of American DBZ fans. The time and effort to learn a foreign language.. just to read a guide book about your favorite storybook/anime show.. It's just not justifiable to most people, myself included. The fact that they do not exist in English (or do they?) still makes them very "inaccessible" in my opinion.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Wow, I didn't know they had Bookoff in America. I bought a ton of the Kanzenban when I was in Japan there for like 500 yen a piece (along with the reference guides). I also remembered they were selling both Dragon Ball Z Dragon Boxes bundled together for like 200,000 yen or so