An observation on Dragon Ball's English-speaking fanbases.

[Vekurotto]

Hell, in the Japanese subtitles, he's always called Kami too.

If you look at any other non-Funimation subtitles for anime and they mention 'Kami' it'll get translated to 'God'. Even if you look at Dragon Ball Z Movie 3's Pioneer release, 'Kami' got translated to 'God' when Kaio was talking about the Shinsei Tree's purpose. "As a tree with fruit only to be eaten by the Gods". In both the subtitles and the dub.

I can't speak for Mr. Simmons, which I assume can translate anything to whatever he feels translating it to, but Funi had the say in what actually went in the subtitles which is why in the earlier single volumes from Ginyu all the way to about the time when Cell came around there was limited bad language when sometimes there was because Funi didn't want it in there. Since they lightened up after that there were more things that could make it but Funi was the one that had and still sort of does have the say in the subs.

I would say that I'm pretty sure if given the right to he would have used the term God instead.

[Anonymous Friend]

Before I came to kow that Kami was "god" in the series and was being refered to as Guardian of Earth, I could tell by the way many of the characters responding and interacted with him that he had a pretty lofty and revered position. And possibly everyday people had knowledge of a Guardian/God and what all of that entails.

I also have an understanding that Norse/Greek/Roman and eastern interpretations of "gods" are different from the God of Christianity and Judaism. Where the former are more or less very powerful being in high positions and the former are all-powerful, all-knowing, nothing and no one is higher than us, creators of the universe.

Heck, with-in a few years after meeting him, Goku surpassed Kami.

As for the other changes in the series, the slight character personalities, music, small themic adjustments, dialog changes and ect. ...

I'm starting, more and more, to beleive that it is all objective and depends on the individual. You have people who love the voices and you have people that love the music of one but hate the other. You have those who love the music of one and the voices of the other.

If your disuccing quality, I beleive that any original with beat out a dub purely on the fact that everything is built from the ground up for an original. You have so many hoops to jump thru for a dub, mainly that the images are set and you really can't change much of that (and if you did, you'd have Volcano High).

[Adamant]

I would say that I'm pretty sure if given the right to he would have used the term God instead.

I'm not so sure. He used "Kami-sama" on his old website, and I'm pretty sure Hoffman consistantly used "Kami" rather than God as well.

[Kunzait_83]

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[MajinVejitaXV]

Kunzait, have you watched the Saiyan saga redub at all? They DO mention Goku and Raditz going to the afterlife, and all that stuff.

Um… no it’s not. At all. I have my Orange Brick handy to prove it.

Here’s the FUNimation version;

Popo: “Kami, what’s wrong? You look upset.”

Kami: “It’s Piccolo. I can feel the evil in his heart, and yet… there seems to be a change coming over him Mr. Popo. He’s not acting like the villain I would expect.”

Popo: “It’s quite surprising. Piccolo would never have been willing to train Goku’s son before.”

Kami: “Yes. I was equally surprised when he agreed to forge an alliance with Goku in order to fight Raditz. I realized he had his own selfish motives. But still that does not change the fact that he chose to defend to Earth instead of allowing it to be destroyed.”

*Flashback to Goku and Raditz dying*

Kami: “And though it may seem Piccolo’s true evil nature revealed itself when he eliminated Goku along with Raditz, we musn’t forget that Goku chose to make that sacrifice. And perhaps his death was actually a blessing in disguise; for now Goku has received permission to seek King Kai’s training in Other World. Piccolo knows that Goku is certain to return; and yet he has still chosen to train his son, a boy that may grow to be a powerful enemy in his own right.”

And now the original Japanese version;

Popo: “Kami-sama look strange. Something wrong?”

Kami: “Sure enough, there’s something different about Piccolo from how he was before. He’s still unmistakably evil, but I sense that the devious abrasiveness he had in the past is fading away.”

Popo: “Popo think so too. The old Daimao not make Goku’s son strong.”

Kami: “What made me clearly realize that there was something strange about Piccolo was that when Son Goku’s brother Raditz was killed by him, his spirit went right to the Other World.”

*Flashback to Goku and Raditz dying*

Kami: “Up until now, whenever anyone was killed by the Demon Clan, their spirit had been unable to pass beyond, and they drifted through the air as they suffered. And yet since Raditz had gone to the Other World, Piccolo is clearly different from how he was before.”

Yes, clearly both scripts are completely the same.

It’s interesting to note that the dub has quite a bit more dialogue than the Japanese version due to Kami continuing to talk and run on sentences long past when his lips are shown moving, while he’s just pausing in the Japanese version and nothing is said; something that is a VERY common problem throughout the entirety of the dub, one that's usually far more severe than it is in this particular scene.

That right there practically wins the thread. For all the defense of FUNimation's dub, it really does drop the ball on important plot points like the one above.

And, in my opinion, a lot of it can be attributed to the general ignorance of Eastern culture. Here, almost every single reply about Kami-sama has stated that "he doesn't seem like God" referring to a Judeo-Christian interpretation. And yet, as stated here, many other cultures have Gods that very nearly mirror what Kami-sama is. Since no one knows/cares to know this, however, it's fairly safe to say that some green alien being referred to as "God" would immediately spawn a backlash from those who are only familiar with the Judeo-Christian version and assume that's who he must be.

And why is he called Kami-sama in the subtitles? Maybe because 'God' would be too generic in addition to the above. I mean, if you're going by the original, there are several Gods. By calling him Kami, there is no doubt as to who is being referenced.

-Corey

[Raki]

I would like to point out that in Dragonball, Kami does explain the whole thing about how when someone is killed by a Demon Clan member they go to limbo. Why doesn't Funimation be consistent with their dub explanations?

[Tsukento]

Was just watching my Burdock/Trunks double-feature DVD set, particularly the Trunks special, in English.

I gotta say, the dialogue is VASTLY different in several scenes. FUNi was *really* pushing it with the whole idea that they wanted people to believe that #17 and #18 were androids and not cyborgs.

Not only that but several points during the special had such terrible clashes in character and story.

For example, when Gohan first turns into a Super Saiyan in the special, we have NO IDEA about this until he transforms in the Japanese version. It's a total surprise. But when Gohan and Trunks arrive at the very moment, the "androids" refer to Gohan as a blonde that changed his hair to black...because he's trying to copy #17. So not only was the surprise done away with, they added an attempt to be funny.

Not only that, but then you have the dumb ass line of #18 saying "My hair! That doesn't grow back, you know!" when Trunks' slash barely gets her.

Speaking of Trunks, he has some kind of obsession with children through out the WHOLE special when no such thing is mentioned in the original. Not only was Trunks obsessing over "innocent children", but Bulma had a SERIOUS attitude problem where she came off as the type of mother who'd warn once and then continuously scold him. Whereas in the Japanese version, she was worried about him going off on his own and relieved to have him back home.

On a side note, it seemed like FUNi's favorite line back in 1999 - 2000 was "my gosh."

[Gozar]

I asked this before, but what if the Saiyans were never called "aliens"? What if they were only ever described as "fighters"? It describes what they do most of the time, right? But if that's all they were ever explained as being, their true nature wouldn't be explained very well.

Again, though a major inconvenience, it would not screw up the story of DragonBall. It would be obvious that the Saiyans were still some sort of group. Now this may cause problems as to people's perceptions as to if they are simply a group or an actual race of people. So I can see your point to a degree with the Saiyan case. But it different with a god, there isn't that type of confusion as to what their role is.

The part about Goku dieing seems to have dropped out. Which makes it unclear how Goku would end up at Kaio's. And yes, when you combine that with Kaio just being some cornball goofy man who just happens to be very strong, and who Goku just happens to know about, then what's going on with Goku in the entire mid-section of the arc becomes pretty vague.

Also, if you're going by the original dub, then "People die" isn't applicable.

Um, I just simply left some stuff out. I was just making a point about the plotline of DBZ. Death is mentioned in the Uncut Re-Dub though.

And that's all they are. The whoel point is that the dub leaves them only the smallest fragment of their original characters intact.

That's not true. With some of the characters yes. However most of the characters are still generally the same. It's not as though FUNi completely erased aspects of their personality but rather focused a bit more so on specific attributes.

Vegeta and Piccolo were really softened up in the dub.

Piccolo basically treats Gohan like shit and Vegeta barely gives a damn about Trunks in the Japanese version.

Piccolo yeah...But Vegeta? He wasn't softened up. But Piccolo DOES come to treat Gohan well by the Freeza Saga. Dub Piccolo was still a hardass to him during their original training.

Meanwhile, Vegeta and Piccolo are only seen as the "pissy one" and the "lone wolf who comes out to help a little boy." Not only that, but for whatever reason, they LOVE to deliver one liner puns and jokes for no reason at all.

Do we know why Vegeta's the way he is? According to the dub, Vegeta's daddy was taken away and Freeza made him do the bad things he did or else he'd kill his daddy. A *complete* difference in character development from the original. They made Vegeta seem like he didn't take joy or pride in what he did and that the Saiyan race is made of nothing but softies.

Bleh...That dialogue during Vegeta's death about his father ois just so over the top. The Dub completely screws that up because by that basis, Vegeta should now be much softer by the post-Freeza stuff. However you're description of Vegeta...Er...Vegeta IS quite the pissy one.

Emphasis to “why” added by me. That’s really the dub’s biggest fault storytelling-wise; it glosses through the same basic plot, but it ignores the “why’s” and “how’s” of a LOT of different things as it goes on, stuff that the Japanese version takes the time to lay out.

You're right, I'll gladly admit that the Dub is a softened (American) Kidified version of the original with some of the deeper points glossed over. Again, yes I also agree that the tone is somewhat altered. However you're saying that the 2 resemble each other in no way is really absurd.

Yes; it IS a big deal that the dub literally has NO character development whatsoever. Piccolo is always a screaming lunatic from the word go, just like Kuririn is always the cowardly bumbling sidekick, and Vegeta is always the temperamental hardass, Goku is always the square-jawed moral spewing hero-boy…. etc. etc.

These are non-characters in the dub. What were once fleshed out personas with at least a handful of different dimensions to them are now reduced to cardboard cutout versions of one lone superficial quality to them put on infinite repeat. Forgive me for not finding that sort of writing to be entertaining in the least bit, but I prefer my characters to have more than one single note to them.

You're wrong...You're being overly judgmental of it. To say there's no character development...Piccolo & Vegeta clearly have so much character development still intact in the Dub. While Kuririn on the other hand...Well the bulk of his developing was done Pre-Z...I'd say he his his end of major development in the Saiyan Saga.

But you keep saying that Piccolo's just a yelling lunatic which I really do not see your point at all here. Are you just referring to Sabat's voice? Because his voice toned down by Jinzoningen fight. The only Saga where Sabat's Piccolo is overly gruff is the Freeza stuff through Trunks arrival. Piccolo's Dub dialogue is certainly not lunatic'ish. So what exactly do you mean. Vegeta...Well he IS "temperamental hardass" up until the Buu Era where he seems to calm down...Then...er...Well Stadium go boom...But his personality in the Dub is not tweaked as bad as you make it. As for Goku...There's not super hero non-sense coming out his mouth 24/7...That stuff gets severely toned down post-Freeza.

It’s also all about mood and tone. And the dub’s tone is about as night and day different to the Japanese version as can be humanly possible

This I will support you 100% on. The mood is in fact vastly changed.

Then there’s the style of voice acting. I’m not talking about the quality of the acting. I’m talking about the specific style.

Characters, when they’re not yelling in the middle of a tense dramatic scene or an action/fight sequence, just talk to one another like regular sounding people.

Well you're entitled to your opinion...But the differences in the voices don't mess up the flow of characters for me. When I hear them just talking, I hear a conversation between the characters...I don't hear cartoony voices like you do. That kind of stuff is very subjective.

On the subject of Kami's dialogue regarding Piccolo after Goku's death...I agree the 2 are rather obviously completely different...HOWEVER, in the end despite the complete glossing over. They do drive the point home that Piccolo is changing. Again, I'm not in any way trying to deny that the spiritual essence was removed nor that the reasoning was screwed over. But just that in the end, we have the same bottom line.

[theoriginalbilis]

American kids’ action cartoons are the exact opposite; the music is ALWAYS of one note; a faux-“hard edged” sound meant to simulate hard rock or techno, but sugar coated somewhat from what actual hard rock and good techno actually sound like. And moreover it NEVER shuts up. There’s ALWAYS music playing from the moment the episode begins to the moment it ends, every single theme being either completely random, or horribly over-manipulative, “directing” the viewer into feeling what they’re “supposed” to be feeling in each scene.

I'm guessing you've never watched any of the DC Animation growing up, like Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, or Justice League, have you?

When Warner Bros. created these shows, they intended for each show to be scored like an actual movie, to let dialogue and visuals carry the intent/mood of the scenes, not blair loud music or reuse stock music. Hell, they even had moments of silence in them. Seriously, Batman: TAS has one of the best, most memorable, and most ambient soundtracks I've ever heard. These and a few other cartoons break this "norm" for American animation you're talking about.

Other than that, I agree with everything you've said about the dub vs. the original. (Even though I like parts of the dub.) Ever since I started buying the Movies and Season Set DVDs, Japanese has been the truest, authentic, and most enjoyable way to enjoy Dragon Ball for me.

[Super Sonic]

American kids’ action cartoons are the exact opposite; the music is ALWAYS of one note; a faux-“hard edged” sound meant to simulate hard rock or techno, but sugar coated somewhat from what actual hard rock and good techno actually sound like. And moreover it NEVER shuts up. There’s ALWAYS music playing from the moment the episode begins to the moment it ends, every single theme being either completely random, or horribly over-manipulative, “directing” the viewer into feeling what they’re “supposed” to be feeling in each scene.

I'm guessing you've never watched any of the DC Animation growing up, like Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, or Justice League, have you?

When Warner Bros. created these shows, they intended for each show to be scored like an actual movie, to let dialogue and visuals carry the intent/mood of the scenes, not blair loud music or reuse stock music. Hell, they even had moments of silence in them. Seriously, Batman: TAS has one of the best, most memorable, and most ambient soundtracks I've ever heard. These and a few other cartoons break this "norm" for American animation you're talking about.

I think Kunzait is Japanese with the way he talks about seeing DB in Japan. Or an army brat. Either way, he might've missed them as they might not have aired in Japan. (Has no clue whether any other US cartoons besides Simpsons, Disney movies and Tom & Jerry air in Japan).

[Kunzait_83]

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[NeptuneKai]

dithering around with the scintillating exploits of a bunch of whitebread soldiers with lame-ass nicknames getting into shootouts where no one ever gets hurt or killed, or following which next set of anthropomorphic animals a bunch of dipshit, surfer rejects will be turned into next and what sort of junkfood they’ll latch onto and fixate over while battling generic supervillains in poorly animated and uninspired karate fights where again, no one ever gets hurt or killed.

Cheat Commandos Rock Rock on!

[Raki]

American kids’ action cartoons are the exact opposite; the music is ALWAYS of one note; a faux-“hard edged” sound meant to simulate hard rock or techno, but sugar coated somewhat from what actual hard rock and good techno actually sound like. And moreover it NEVER shuts up. There’s ALWAYS music playing from the moment the episode begins to the moment it ends, every single theme being either completely random, or horribly over-manipulative, “directing” the viewer into feeling what they’re “supposed” to be feeling in each scene.

I'm guessing you've never watched any of the DC Animation growing up, like Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, or Justice League, have you?

When Warner Bros. created these shows, they intended for each show to be scored like an actual movie, to let dialogue and visuals carry the intent/mood of the scenes, not blair loud music or reuse stock music. Hell, they even had moments of silence in them. Seriously, Batman: TAS has one of the best, most memorable, and most ambient soundtracks I've ever heard. These and a few other cartoons break this "norm" for American animation you're talking about.

I think Kunzait is Japanese with the way he talks about seeing DB in Japan. Or an army brat. Either way, he might've missed them as they might not have aired in Japan. (Has no clue whether any other US cartoons besides Simpsons, Disney movies and Tom & Jerry air in Japan).

Kunzait has explained that he saw DBZ via VHS. I'm sure you are old enough to remember tape trading.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Raki]

To Sonny's credit, he has said that they were limited in their range. Not to mention Krillin's lame lines, he thought those were bad too.

[Anonymous Friend]

Here’s the FUNimation version;

Popo: “Kami, what’s wrong? You look upset.”

Kami: “It’s Piccolo. I can feel the evil in his heart, and yet… there seems to be a change coming over him Mr. Popo. He’s not acting like the villain I would expect.”

Popo: “It’s quite surprising. Piccolo would never have been willing to train Goku’s son before.”

Kami: “Yes. I was equally surprised when he agreed to forge an alliance with Goku in order to fight Raditz. I realized he had his own selfish motives. But still that does not change the fact that he chose to defend to Earth instead of allowing it to be destroyed.”

*Flashback to Goku and Raditz dying*

Kami: “And though it may seem Piccolo’s true evil nature revealed itself when he eliminated Goku along with Raditz, we musn’t forget that Goku chose to make that sacrifice. And perhaps his death was actually a blessing in disguise; for now Goku has received permission to seek King Kai’s training in Other World. Piccolo knows that Goku is certain to return; and yet he has still chosen to train his son, a boy that may grow to be a powerful enemy in his own right.”

And now the original Japanese version;

Popo: “Kami-sama look strange. Something wrong?”

Kami: “Sure enough, there’s something different about Piccolo from how he was before. He’s still unmistakably evil, but I sense that the devious abrasiveness he had in the past is fading away.”

Popo: “Popo think so too. The old Daimao not make Goku’s son strong.”

Kami: “What made me clearly realize that there was something strange about Piccolo was that when Son Goku’s brother Raditz was killed by him, his spirit went right to the Other World.”

*Flashback to Goku and Raditz dying*

Kami: “Up until now, whenever anyone was killed by the Demon Clan, their spirit had been unable to pass beyond, and they drifted through the air as they suffered. And yet since Raditz had gone to the Other World, Piccolo is clearly different from how he was before.”

Yes, clearly both scripts are completely the same.

It’s interesting to note that the dub has quite a bit more dialogue than the Japanese version due to Kami continuing to talk and run on sentences long past when his lips are shown moving, while he’s just pausing in the Japanese version and nothing is said; something that is a VERY common problem throughout the entirety of the dub, one that's usually far more severe than it is in this particular scene.

Both scenes are not completely the same. The Original gives you more background details that someone who has been following the series since the beginning, or atleast three or four story arcs, would know of and understand more clearly.

But you do get the general understanding of the of what was said: Piccolo was bad/evil. Him and Goku were enemies. Piccolo hated Goku but for his own selfish reasons he joined forces with an hated enemie to takedown a mutual threat. After the threat is taken care of, it was revealed that more and stonger enemies are coming. Piccolo, having killed his main enemy Goku, knows that needs help defeating these new guys kidnaps his enemy's child because of his great potential to be a useful ally, and possible future threat once fully trained.

The only real changes are the omission of Daimao and the Demon Clan stuff. And if you were not familiar with the second half of Dragon Ball, you wouldn't know of it. And, not to be making further excuses, but with the Namek stuff coming really soon it would seem kinda stupid to mention this then change his origins to being some sort of alien.

All in all, you understand what's happening. You understand why everything's happening to an extent. You're not missing some vital information that makes everything indecipherable. The dub does gloss over A LOT of finer details. I think the most of it was that they themselves didn't pick up on it, or they didn't think the children would understand them. But the biggest reason for these "issues" is that the series was started over here right smack in the middle of it.

And speaking of the music, there are a couple of tunes that I can say that I remember and enjoy. Most notable is the piece that plays as Gohan is destroying Cell. I also enjoy the opening for the season sets. And I like the rock music that plays during some of the movies. But that has more to do with personal tastes than anything else.

In the end, I understand that changes were made becaus there's a lot of money involved. We can contest these changes because none of OUR money was involved. Whether we thought they are stupid or unneccesary is not the point. The important people did and that's why they happened. And these changes could not have been excessively retarded, because even in it's "gimped" form it proved massively successful.

The question, though, that rattles in my brain is: If this was the only product, no original version to speak of, would i still be that popular? Part of me says YES, while another part says that I can only say this because I have an original that I can get a deaper understanding of the series with.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[JulieYBM]

You realize Kunzait that it'd be too frickin' expensive to go about redubbing 508, 17 films, and two TV specials, espicially when they've got other stuff to work on? Things are stuck the way they are. Just ignore the English version fandom and stop torturing yourself.

[Victator Supreme]

Kunzait, have you watched the Saiyan saga redub at all? They DO mention Goku and Raditz going to the afterlife, and all that stuff.

Um… no it’s not. At all. I have my Orange Brick handy to prove it.

Here’s the FUNimation version;

Popo: “Kami, what’s wrong? You look upset.”

Kami: “It’s Piccolo. I can feel the evil in his heart, and yet… there seems to be a change coming over him Mr. Popo. He’s not acting like the villain I would expect.”

Popo: “It’s quite surprising. Piccolo would never have been willing to train Goku’s son before.”

Kami: “Yes. I was equally surprised when he agreed to forge an alliance with Goku in order to fight Raditz. I realized he had his own selfish motives. But still that does not change the fact that he chose to defend to Earth instead of allowing it to be destroyed.”

*Flashback to Goku and Raditz dying*

Kami: “And though it may seem Piccolo’s true evil nature revealed itself when he eliminated Goku along with Raditz, we musn’t forget that Goku chose to make that sacrifice. And perhaps his death was actually a blessing in disguise; for now Goku has received permission to seek King Kai’s training in Other World. Piccolo knows that Goku is certain to return; and yet he has still chosen to train his son, a boy that may grow to be a powerful enemy in his own right.”

And now the original Japanese version;

Popo: “Kami-sama look strange. Something wrong?”

Kami: “Sure enough, there’s something different about Piccolo from how he was before. He’s still unmistakably evil, but I sense that the devious abrasiveness he had in the past is fading away.”

Popo: “Popo think so too. The old Daimao not make Goku’s son strong.”

Kami: “What made me clearly realize that there was something strange about Piccolo was that when Son Goku’s brother Raditz was killed by him, his spirit went right to the Other World.”

*Flashback to Goku and Raditz dying*

Kami: “Up until now, whenever anyone was killed by the Demon Clan, their spirit had been unable to pass beyond, and they drifted through the air as they suffered. And yet since Raditz had gone to the Other World, Piccolo is clearly different from how he was before.”

Yes, clearly both scripts are completely the same.

It’s interesting to note that the dub has quite a bit more dialogue than the Japanese version due to Kami continuing to talk and run on sentences long past when his lips are shown moving, while he’s just pausing in the Japanese version and nothing is said; something that is a VERY common problem throughout the entirety of the dub, one that's usually far more severe than it is in this particular scene.

That right there practically wins the thread. For all the defense of FUNimation's dub, it really does drop the ball on important plot points like the one above.

And, in my opinion, a lot of it can be attributed to the general ignorance of Eastern culture. Here, almost every single reply about Kami-sama has stated that "he doesn't seem like God" referring to a Judeo-Christian interpretation. And yet, as stated here, many other cultures have Gods that very nearly mirror what Kami-sama is. Since no one knows/cares to know this, however, it's fairly safe to say that some green alien being referred to as "God" would immediately spawn a backlash from those who are only familiar with the Judeo-Christian version and assume that's who he must be.

And why is he called Kami-sama in the subtitles? Maybe because 'God' would be too generic in addition to the above. I mean, if you're going by the original, there are several Gods. By calling him Kami, there is no doubt as to who is being referenced.

-Corey

The plot point was "Hey Piccolo is not as evil as he was." Which bothscripts presented.

Anybody who can't see how Falconer is superior to Menze is full of shit. The sprit bomb, Ginyu switch, Vegeta Super Saiyan, SSJ 3, Super Buu, mystic Gohan themes are all good in their own right. Menza knew two cords and played them constantly.

[Kunzait_83]

b