Why do lots of people like Cell and Broly?

[Rocketman]

The principle is there, when one becomes useless to society etc., or in this case a particular cause, they are put to death.

But they had those fancy healing tanks that Vegeta himself used after getting trashed.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

First of all, that's subjective morality, which is another argument altogether.

But it's not a code of honor. There is no "code" being followed there.

At all.

And you're just shoehorning in an argument about subjective morality, which is another argument in its entirety.

That isn't a CODE. And if you SAY it is, you're mostly just forcing a code on them. Which makes the original question ITSELF worthless if you were going to do the textual equivalent of plugging your ears and screaming "LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOOOU!"

And I think there is plenty of evidence to prove that the Saiyans KNEW that what they were doing was wrong, and didn't CARE.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The principle is there, when one becomes useless to society etc., or in this case a particular cause, they are put to death.

But they had those fancy healing tanks that Vegeta himself used after getting trashed.

Which was light years away and I doubt Vegeta would go through all that trouble since his odds of winning decreased after he witnessed Kakarrot’s performance. Plus he most likely did not care.

First of all, that's subjective morality, which is another argument altogether.

But it's not a code of honor. There is no "code" being followed there.

At all.

And you're just shoehorning in an argument about subjective morality, which is another argument in its entirety.

That isn't a CODE. And if you SAY it is, you're mostly just forcing a code on them. Which makes the original question ITSELF worthless if you were going to do the textual equivalent of plugging your ears and screaming "LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOOOU!"

And I think there is plenty of evidence to prove that the Saiyans KNEW that what they were doing was wrong, and didn't CARE.

You may not care for subjectivism but many here argued that the Saiyans were a group of barbarians (which is offensive given the origins and etymology of the word) and so even barbarians have a worldview. No one is trying to shoehorn anything all I am stating is basic principles that is used when analyzing literature or ancient cultures. Archeologists and literary scholars use these rules all the time in their work. In addition, where is you evidence that the Saiyans knew their actions were wrong?

[Rocketman]

You may not care for subjectivism but many here argued that the Saiyans were a group of barbarians (which is offensive given the origins and etymology of the word)

Barbarian, from βάρβαρος, "one who doesn't speak Greek".

[Saiyan-Professor]

You may not care for subjectivism but many here argued that the Saiyans were a group of barbarians (which is offensive given the origins and etymology of the word)

Barbarian, from βάρβαρος, "one who doesn't speak Greek".

Yes, and now it is a pejorative term that applies to individuals that are considered uncivilized and cruel which was developed into this meaning by certain religious groups in the Middle Ages. Which demonstrates that to say that the Saiyans were not honorable in the literal sense of the word or that they did not have a code is essentially judgment statements not a clear-cut answer to the question? Ones own standards determine how one approaches the material. The job of a true analyst is to deal with the facts and do not bring anything to the material. As earlier mentioned the Saiyans actions have been harmonious throughout Dragonball.

[mAcChaos]

Facts don't speak for themselves. You can't interpret them without standards to apply them to. You don't know what "effective" or "good" is without defining those terms.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Facts don't speak for themselves. You can't interpret them without standards to apply them to. You don't know what "effective" or "good" is without defining those terms.

That is the problem; some terms have universal meanings whereas some do not. Then also over time, you have to factor in semantics. For example, one dictionary says this about the word “cute”.

Cute is a good example of how a shortened form of a word can take on a life of its own, developing a sense that dissociates it from the longer word from which it was derived. Cute was originally a shortened form of acute in the sense "keenly perceptive or discerning, shrewd." In this sense cute is first recorded in a dictionary published in 1731. Probably cute came to be used as a term of approbation for things demonstrating acuteness, and so it went on to develop its own sense of "pretty, fetching," first recorded with reference to "gals" in 1838.

The society in certain areas defines the nature of certain words or the principles that define them. I am sure the majority here would define honorable in a manner that is totally opposite of the Saiyan's behavior whereas to them their actions would fit the term appropriately.

[SaiyaMel]

Kunzait:

And on the off chance that you’re a dub fan

Actually, I have long been more of a fan of the original. Just that with being so focused on my project - I haven't bothered much lately to check the series much for reference, and had been going by word of mouth (from dubbies) on this subject.

Anyways - this thread.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[JulieYBM]

Well, I suppose something like that was bound to happen. Although I'd still like for you to write some essays on the terrible plot/character changes made in the dub for reference.

[SaiyaMel]

It's okay. No one's to blame for this, Kunzait - it was bound to happen sooner or later like the above poster said. In a way I'm glad you brought mention to this as I'd hate the idea of creating such a fan-spinnoff of something based on the dub.

Truth is, I've sort of had thoughts of starting my own independent version of the species a while ago, in a universe of its own canon (refer to the thread in the Science Fiction and Fantasy section of my forum), and I thought I might as well use all the 7 years of stuff (including the language) I made for the Saiyans, and reserve it for this new fictional warrior race of mine. Love to have something I can call the shots on..

Also, the more have learned on the Saiyans - the more unlikely it seems of the possibility of them continuing to use their native tongue(s) once finding universal Japanese, more useful. If they did indeed have their own language(s), they probably went extinct.

[Captain Awesome]

I'm sorry for my part also, I never meant to discourage you from your fandom or from being creative.

[Onikage725]

But they had those fancy healing tanks that Vegeta himself used after getting trashed.

Which was light years away and I doubt Vegeta would go through all that trouble since his odds of winning decreased after he witnessed Kakarrot’s performance. Plus he most likely did not care.

Nail on the head. I do believe that is kind of the point. Hell, he'd just seen the effects of senzu. Since he was planning on utter domination of his opponent, followed by an auto-pilot trip to Namek (in which he budgeted a stop off at healing facilities), one of the two options could have crossed his mind. Let's face it, he wasn't offering Nappa an honorable end. He was disgusted that he had to get his hands dirty, and that Nappa had gotten his ass kicked even after being told to back off. So he killed him. Cuz he was A) pissed and B) a DOUCHEBAG! Have we forgotten the fundamental principle that Vegeta spends most of his life being a huuuuuuge douchebag? What about tha Saibaiman he executed unceremoniously from behind, despite it not being seriously injured and still capable of combat, just cuz he was irritated? Even Nappa, a kill-hungry genocidal maniac, had an expression that said "dude... that's fucked up."

You may not care for subjectivism but many here argued that the Saiyans were a group of barbarians (which is offensive given the origins and etymology of the word) and so even barbarians have a worldview. No one is trying to shoehorn anything all I am stating is basic principles that is used when analyzing literature or ancient cultures. Archeologists and literary scholars use these rules all the time in their work. In addition, where is you evidence that the Saiyans knew their actions were wrong?

It is in their behavior.

Here is an example. The types of cultures you are talking about tended to view outsiders as sub-human. Children made through rape after/during a conquest were illegitimate. In some cases, even doing so was frowned upon, as it soiled the bloodlines (in their view). The simply dehumanized outsiders to justify their actions (kind of an us or them thing).

The Saiyans did *not* do that. When Raditz hears that his brother has "gone native," befriending humans and breeding with them, he doesn't care. His reaction isn't "how could you dilute our bloodline?!?" He is simply angry that Goku failed the mission. He even indicates that if Goku won't do the job, his halfbreed nephew will do just as well with a proper Saiyan upbringing. On Namek, Vegeta makes no bones about referring to Gohan as a Saiyan (as opposed to derisively referring to his half-human heritage), and more than once acknowledges his growing power. Not once is Gohan (or Trunks and Goten) discriminated against, except in the regard that Vegeta thinks a "soft" Earth upbringing takes away the warrior's edge. Even Vegeta recognizes the human fighters as warriors of some merit, as he makes no bones about teaming up with them on Namek. When he's stuck on Earth for a brief while, he has no problem knocking boots with Bulma.

So not *every* target was... I guess the word would be "desaiyanized." Their culture was built on genocide, and it lead to a society that glorified sociopathy.

There is, however, an argument to be made that they became this way out of necessity (at least in their view). To the Saiyains, the Tsufuru may have been viewed as an oppressive force with superior strength of arms and numbers, causing them to have to become increasingly savage to win the right to live outside the wastelands.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Nail on the head. I do believe that is kind of the point. Hell, he'd just seen the effects of senzu. Since he was planning on utter domination of his opponent, followed by an auto-pilot trip to Namek (in which he budgeted a stop off at healing facilities), one of the two options could have crossed his mind. Let's face it, he wasn't offering Nappa an honorable end. He was disgusted that he had to get his hands dirty, and that Nappa had gotten his ass kicked even after being told to back off. So he killed him. Cuz he was A) pissed and B) a DOUCHEBAG! Have we forgotten the fundamental principle that Vegeta spends most of his life being a huuuuuuge douchebag? What about tha Saibaiman he executed unceremoniously from behind, despite it not being seriously injured and still capable of combat, just cuz he was irritated? Even Nappa, a kill-hungry genocidal maniac, had an expression that said "dude... that's fucked up."

Hell, Freeza said he was going to kill Zarbon if he didn't bring Vegeta back in an hour (after he stole the Dragon Balls). I think Toriyama said it best in his interview in issue #1 of the American Shonen Jump; Freeza didn't consider the people in his army his allies so much as "convenient followers." I'm sure Vegeta felt the same way of Nappa.

[Saiyan-Professor]

But they had those fancy healing tanks that Vegeta himself used after getting trashed.

Which was light years away and I doubt Vegeta would go through all that trouble since his odds of winning decreased after he witnessed Kakarrot’s performance. Plus he most likely did not care.

Nail on the head. I do believe that is kind of the point. Hell, he'd just seen the effects of senzu. Since he was planning on utter domination of his opponent, followed by an auto-pilot trip to Namek (in which he budgeted a stop off at healing facilities), one of the two options could have crossed his mind. Let's face it, he wasn't offering Nappa an honorable end. He was disgusted that he had to get his hands dirty, and that Nappa had gotten his ass kicked even after being told to back off. So he killed him. Cuz he was A) pissed and B) a DOUCHEBAG! Have we forgotten the fundamental principle that Vegeta spends most of his life being a huuuuuuge douchebag? What about tha Saibaiman he executed unceremoniously from behind, despite it not being seriously injured and still capable of combat, just cuz he was irritated? Even Nappa, a kill-hungry genocidal maniac, had an expression that said "dude... that's fucked up."

You may not care for subjectivism but many here argued that the Saiyans were a group of barbarians (which is offensive given the origins and etymology of the word) and so even barbarians have a worldview. No one is trying to shoehorn anything all I am stating is basic principles that is used when analyzing literature or ancient cultures. Archeologists and literary scholars use these rules all the time in their work. In addition, where is you evidence that the Saiyans knew their actions were wrong?

It is in their behavior.

Here is an example. The types of cultures you are talking about tended to view outsiders as sub-human. Children made through rape after/during a conquest were illegitimate. In some cases, even doing so was frowned upon, as it soiled the bloodlines (in their view). The simply dehumanized outsiders to justify their actions (kind of an us or them thing).

The Saiyans did *not* do that. When Raditz hears that his brother has "gone native," befriending humans and breeding with them, he doesn't care. His reaction isn't "how could you dilute our bloodline?!?" He is simply angry that Goku failed the mission. He even indicates that if Goku won't do the job, his halfbreed nephew will do just as well with a proper Saiyan upbringing. On Namek, Vegeta makes no bones about referring to Gohan as a Saiyan (as opposed to derisively referring to his half-human heritage), and more than once acknowledges his growing power. Not once is Gohan (or Trunks and Goten) discriminated against, except in the regard that Vegeta thinks a "soft" Earth upbringing takes away the warrior's edge. Even Vegeta recognizes the human fighters as warriors of some merit, as he makes no bones about teaming up with them on Namek. When he's stuck on Earth for a brief while, he has no problem knocking boots with Bulma.

So not *every* target was... I guess the word would be "desaiyanized." Their culture was built on genocide, and it lead to a society that glorified sociopathy.

There is, however, an argument to be made that they became this way out of necessity (at least in their view). To the Saiyains, the Tsufuru may have been viewed as an oppressive force with superior strength of arms and numbers, causing them to have to become increasingly savage to win the right to live outside the wastelands.

To a lesser or greater extent you have described the philosophy of every country or group on the face of this earth. I am done with the "honor" and "code" discussion, I have presented my feelings on the matter so that others can walk away with what they want. I really do not think we can take the discussion any further than this but that is just my opinion. I will jump in again when we get back to talking about Cell or Broli.

[evilp666]

Their my favorite cuz they both fight for dumb reasons.Ccell
just wants to fight to prove hes the strongest,and Brolly just wants
to beat the crap out of son goku....dumbasses