"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:56 pm

This doesn't look so bad, right?

TheMikado · Post by **TheMikado** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:59 pm

HeroR wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Noah wrote:
So? He also could feel his Ki back in the Boo arc, would you say Goku had this skill way before then?
Pretty sure, conveniently enough, that nobody besides Piccolo could sense Shin's Ki. Even if they could, I already criticized the entire concept of God Ki back in BoG for opening up plot holes since Goku teleported multiple time to Kaio's and Kaio can sense Beerus.

LightBing wrote:Zamasu is close enough.
What about it? Zamasu should also have God Ki.
The Kais are a little weird since King Kai is a Kai, yet Goku could teleport to him before he got Super Saiyan God, unless you believe he was really sensing Bubbles. Which then beg the question why he was so shocked that he couldn't sense Beerus and King Kai had to explained that mortals can't sense gods.

There’s a couple of explanations for this I would think.

All non- Gods of destruction emit normal ki despite being able to sense God Ki. This would be consistent with being able to sense kaioshin.
The non sense able ki is able the skill of preventing ki leakage which is only really mastered by the Gods of Destruction.
Maybe in the manga Goku can only sense them at equivalent levels of strength in his SSG and SSB forms. Who knows. There’s a ton of them but there isn’t really anything to say that Goku can always sense the ki of Gods of Destruction in the manga.
Also it could just be because they are from another universe like in the anime where they couldn’t sense the trios. Idk but it seems like he’s not able to sense ki from other universes like the anime.

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:02 pm

I guess I will be the downer here.

I just don't care for the Gods of Destruction fight. It was drawn very well and I will say it is some of Toyo's best work. So bravo on him for that. However, the fight itself seems extremely lackluster for all 12 Gods of Destruction going at it in a no holding back fight. We have Champa and Beerus blowing up planets during a sibling fight and Super Saiyan God Goku and Beers shaking the universe (yes that was in the manga), yet a fight will all 12 Gods of Destruction feels small scale. Even the Merged Zamasu fight in the manga felt more 'epic' than this. Overall, this is a letdown for me since I expected something more special when we really see the Gods of Destruction fight and this feels like thugs trying to kill each other. Maybe that was the point, but I agree with Zen'o that it was 'boring' and prefer the mortals fighting.

As for Toppo, different take from the anime, but it works well here, even if Toppo has no personality here.

I am glad so may loved the Gods of Destruction fight, but I just did nothing for me.

And as Toyo usually do, he tried to explained something that didn't really need to be explained and the explanation doesn't really make sense. Zen'o calling the Gods of Destruction match too fast and violent, which is why the Gods of Destruction are no in the tournament. First, that really makes no real sense and two, did we really need an explanation? The anime explained this in one line by saying Zen'o modeled his tournament off of Champa's tournament, which is why the Super Dragon Balls are the main prized. So the justification for the God of Destruction rumble is really weak, imo. If he was going this route, I prefer if he just said, the Gods of Destruction are too predictable, which is why they're boring, while mortals tend to more dynamic and creative or something.

buutenks · Post by **buutenks** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:07 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Fantastic chapter. Honestly, Toppo's introduction and general characterization was a bit more in-depth in the anime, but overall I feel that the manga's version of the exhibition match was definitely the more interesting of the two. The general structure of Goku vs. Toppo just had more going for it here.

The manga was always better than the anime at explaining things and expanding upon them and Power Levels in general. Anime is similar to DBZ anime, very confusing with all the fillers n stuff.

Namz · Post by **Namz** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:13 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Fantastic chapter. Honestly, Toppo's introduction and general characterization was a bit more in-depth in the anime, but overall I feel that the manga's version of the exhibition match was definitely the more interesting of the two. The general structure of Goku vs. Toppo just had more going for it here.

Seriously guys you try too hard. Toppo in anime is truly awful. "Justice this, justice that". The anime is crap overall. At this point is incredible people defend it.

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:15 pm

Namz wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:Fantastic chapter. Honestly, Toppo's introduction and general characterization was a bit more in-depth in the anime, but overall I feel that the manga's version of the exhibition match was definitely the more interesting of the two. The general structure of Goku vs. Toppo just had more going for it here.
Seriously guys you try too hard. Toppo in anime is truly awful. "Justice this, justice that". The anime is crap overall. At this point is incredible people defend it.

Yeah, how dare people have a different opinion than mines.

buutenks wrote:
The manga was always better than the anime at explaining things and expanding upon them and Power Levels in general. Anime is similar to DBZ anime, very confusing with all the fillers n stuff.

Except the anime doesn't have 'filler' and that same filler is used to explained or expand stuff.

buutenks · Post by **buutenks** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:19 pm

HeroR wrote:
Namz wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:Fantastic chapter. Honestly, Toppo's introduction and general characterization was a bit more in-depth in the anime, but overall I feel that the manga's version of the exhibition match was definitely the more interesting of the two. The general structure of Goku vs. Toppo just had more going for it here.
Seriously guys you try too hard. Toppo in anime is truly awful. "Justice this, justice that". The anime is crap overall. At this point is incredible people defend it.
Yeah, how dare people have a different opinion than mines.

buutenks wrote:
The manga was always better than the anime at explaining things and expanding upon them and Power Levels in general. Anime is similar to DBZ anime, very confusing with all the fillers n stuff.
Except the anime doesn't have 'filler' and that same filler is used to explained or expand stuff.

The anime is pretty dull tho. It rushes things, like the Trunk vs Dabura fight in the anime, very lame, while manga was good.

Marlowe89 · Post by **Marlowe89** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:22 pm

Namz wrote: Seriously guys you try too hard. Toppo in anime is truly awful. "Justice this, justice that". The anime is crap overall. At this point is incredible people defend it.

Try too hard at what? I'm just posting my impressions of the chapter.

Toppo is certainly more likeable in the manga but that doesn't necessarily mean that specific portrayal is better, especially when the anime bothered to convey more than one aspect of his character. Both mediums have their strengths and weaknesses, and it's not like I don't vastly prefer the manga for this arc in particular anyway.

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:22 pm

buutenks wrote:
The anime is pretty dull tho. It rushes things, like the Trunk vs Dabura fight in the anime, very lame, while manga was good.

That has nothing to do with 'filler', especially since Trunk vs Dabura would be considered 'filler' since it had nothing to do with the main story in the anime, so why would they give it focus?

And it's really werid that you get on the anime for rushing things where the manga rushed the ending of the Champa Saga and most of the Future Trunks Saga until halfway through the saga.

goku the krump dancer · Post by **goku the krump dancer** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:25 pm

Reading The chapter now on Viz.. Kaioshin is such a Wuss

seeing him pass out to Rumsshi's roar LMAOOOO

TheMikado · Post by **TheMikado** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:26 pm

I’m really not understanding the Toppo criticisms because the setting was completely different. Toppo and Goku dont even know about universes being destroyed yet just the tournament so Toppo doesn’t have a reason to give a grand speech or Justice this or Justice that yet. He was only on screen to fight Goku so we haven’t seen him actually really interact with anyone else’s yet and certainly not in a “Justice” fashion or even reason to do so.

FortuneSSJ · Post by **FortuneSSJ** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:26 pm

Chapter 29

Two strong chapters in a row?! What a surprise. I loved this!

The battle royal was short but intense and we also get to know the abilities of some other GoDs like Belmod, Rumoosh, Helles and Mosco.
When testing the ToP arena the anime already had showed a glimpse of what Iwen, Arak and Liquir can do. We already know Beerus and Champa, so there's Quitela and Geene left.

As for Goku vs Toppo and the revelation of Jiren being stronger than Belmod, I will take the anime version.
I like the way Toppo eliminated Goku (which is with the kick Super Vegeta did to Semi-Perfect Cell in the manga) but that's it.

That's because Goku's portrayal in the beginning of this arc in the anime is the best his character ever was for me. I loved his desire to fight, how he didn't give a fuck about what others thought about him and how confident he was in take on anyone. His character was put in a situation he has never been before and Toei brought Toriyama's Son Goku to life in such a good away, that see him lose here is not a option. The anime did better in showing how strong Toppo is without give us a winner.

About the Exhibition Matches as a whole, I don't think one version is better than the other here. Just different.

Personally, I will take the anime version. I rather to have only 3 GoDs fighting to test the ToP arena later and use the Exhibition Matches to build-up the U9 team, U7 as the main target, Gohan's return to the frontlines and give a proper fight to Buu. The latter being something than even GT didn't give him. I guess Toei staff was reading Toriyama's outline and they probably thought how lame it would be Buu being out again because he's Snorlax now. And since they couldn't change the main team that comes from Toriyama, they did that. I also like the idea that the two lowest ranked Universes are the ones that have to perform a show for the others.

In other words, the anime did a lot of things better but a battle royal between all the GoDs is too good for me to not get excited.

About the arc as a whole so far, it goes like this for me:

Beginning - Toei wins
Introduction of the other Gods - Toyotaro wins
Exhibition Matches - Draw

On a side note, looks like Toyotaro is working on his angles but his panel composition is still a mess most of the time.

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:01 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:Exhibition Matches - Draw.

I agree, though the fights against Universe 9 were interesting and we could see Boo in action after a long time, I also enjoyed the Battle Royale between all the Hakaishin, but Helles 'archery' was lame.

Ki Breaker · Post by **Ki Breaker** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:06 pm

Noah wrote: Helles 'archery' was lame.

It's elegant and If he hadn't blocked it, that would have been a lethal headshot from the way it peirced through fox God's arm.. Far form lame mate..

Marlowe89 · Post by **Marlowe89** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:16 pm

TheMikado wrote:I’m really not understanding the Toppo criticisms because the setting was completely different. Toppo and Goku dont even know about universes being destroyed yet just the tournament so Toppo doesn’t have a reason to give a grand speech or Justice this or Justice that yet. He was only on screen to fight Goku so we haven’t seen him actually really interact with anyone else’s yet and certainly not in a “Justice” fashion or even reason to do so.

Good point. I guess it depends on the context.

Hopefully the manga will showcase these other aspects of Toppo's character at a later point then. I already prefer the manga to the anime in nearly every way so far for this arc, so that would just be the icing on the cake for me.

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:20 pm

I didn't pay attention to the possible plot-hole of Goku suddenly not being able to sense Toppo's God Ki. Maybe Toppo's God Ki is different? Or maybe Goku can only sense the God Ki of people below his current power level, meaning he would sense Toppo's power only as a Super Saiyan Blue. Although it really looks like Toyotaro just messed up.

Doctor. · Post by **Doctor.** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:24 pm

I don't see why people are saying Toppo is different. We've seen this sort of calm behavior from Toppo in the anime too, back when he was talking to Kahseral and the Pride Troopers. The only difference here is that Toppo doesn't see Goku as an enemy/evil in the manga. If he did, I'm sure he would act in the exact same way as in the anime.

Meshack · Post by **Meshack** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:31 pm

HeroR wrote:I guess I will be the downer here.

I just don't care for the Gods of Destruction fight. It was drawn very well and I will say it is some of Toyo's best work. So bravo on him for that. However, the fight itself seems extremely lackluster for all 12 Gods of Destruction going at it in a no holding back fight. We have Champa and Beerus blowing up planets during a sibling fight and Super Saiyan God Goku and Beers shaking the universe (yes that was in the manga), yet a fight will all 12 Gods of Destruction feels small scale. Even the Merged Zamasu fight in the manga felt more 'epic' than this. Overall, this is a letdown for me since I expected something more special when we really see the Gods of Destruction fight and this feels like thugs trying to kill each other. Maybe that was the point, but I agree with Zen'o that it was 'boring' and prefer the mortals fighting.

As for Toppo, different take from the anime, but it works well here, even if Toppo has no personality here.

I am glad so may loved the Gods of Destruction fight, but I just did nothing for me.

And as Toyo usually do, he tried to explained something that didn't really need to be explained and the explanation doesn't really make sense. Zen'o calling the Gods of Destruction match too fast and violent, which is why the Gods of Destruction are no in the tournament. First, that really makes no real sense and two, did we really need an explanation? The anime explained this in one line by saying Zen'o modeled his tournament off of Champa's tournament, which is why the Super Dragon Balls are the main prized. So the justification for the God of Destruction rumble is really weak, imo. If he was going this route, I prefer if he just said, the Gods of Destruction are too predictable, which is why they're boring, while mortals tend to more dynamic and creative or something.

First, you’re comparing battles in the universe to a battle
somewhere in Zenoh’s Palace. There’s no way it could be the same because you can’t destroy anything in the place there were in except the battle stage. A battle in the universe can destroy planets and shatter the universe because it’s destructible.

Toppo has no personality? It’s only been two chapters and he was barely able to show “personality.” In Chapter 28, he was just introduced as the candidate for Hakaishin in the 11th Universe and that’s it. Halfway through Chapter 29, he was surprised to fight against Gokuh and just fought most of the time and he showed respect to Gokuh. There wasn’t really much to give to Toppo except to show that he’s respectful to his opponents. We still have next chapter and the latter chapters for the Tournament of Power to give Toppo more personality.

What’s wrong with explaining things? Do you want everything to be kept as vague and want pointless discussions about stuff? Toyotarou’s explanation for the Hakaishin not participating is not best but it’s something. Maybe Toyotarou didn’t want the same explanation as the anime and wanted another way to have the humans do a tournament as oppose to the Hakaishin. We don’t even know if the Super Dragon Balls are going to be used in the manga (probably will but still.)

HeroR · Post by **HeroR** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:31 pm

Doctor. wrote:I don't see why people are saying Toppo is different. We've seen this sort of calm behavior from Toppo in the anime too, back when he was talking to Kahseral and the Pride Troopers. The only difference here is that Toppo doesn't see Goku as an enemy/evil in the manga. If he did, I'm sure he would act in the exact same way as in the anime.

I do agree mostly. Toppo does have a calm side that people tend to forget and we have seen it in the anime. He isn't all 'justice' 24 hours. He's just shown as a ham in battle.

Meshack wrote: First, you’re comparing battles in the universe to a battle
somewhere in Zenoh’s Palace. There’s no way it could be the same because you can’t destroy anything in the place there were in except the battle stage. A battle in the universe can destroy planets and shatter the universe because it’s destructible.

Toppo has no personality? It’s only been two chapters and he was barely able to show “personality.” In Chapter 28, he was just introduced as the candidate for Hakaishin in the 11th Universe and that’s it. Halfway through Chapter 29, he was surprised to fight against Gokuh and just fought most of the time and he showed respect to Gokuh. There wasn’t really much to give to Toppo except to show that he’s respectful to his opponents. We still have next chapter and the latter chapters for the Tournament of Power to give Toppo more personality.

What’s wrong with explaining things? Do you want everything to be kept as vague and want pointless discussions about stuff? Toyotarou’s explanation for the Hakaishin not participating is not best but it’s something. Maybe Toyotarou didn’t want the same explanation as the anime and wanted another way to have the humans do a tournament as oppose to the Hakaishin. We don’t even know if the Super Dragon Balls are going to be used in the manga (probably will but still.)

Kind of an assumption and why wouldn't I assumed seeing a battle between all the Gods of Destruction to be more dynamic since they have been built up as the strongest in the multiverse outside of the angels. So seeing their fight being no different than seeing thugs fight is disappointing, especially when the manga has better and more creative fights with just mortals. I'm sorry, this just feels like a letdown to me, but I don't begrudged anyone who did enjoy it.

As for Toppo, no personality was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but he's really generic right now. I also strongly disagree that "there wasn’t really much to give to Toppo". I mean, we got a good idea of Black was with just one line in both the anime and manga. It's called an established character moment.

Why Zen'o wants mortals to fight over the gods wasn't something that really needed explained, especially when not even casual fans asked this question and as I pointed out, the anime explained this in one sentence. So this being the reason for the God of Destruction rumble felt like weak sauce to me. It was an explanation that really wasn't needed, the reason why the Gods of Destruction fight was boring was weird and half-baked, so it makes everything feels like an excuse plot. If Toyo didn't want to used the anime excuse, that's fine, but it felt like a change that wasn't really needed.

Meshack · Post by **Meshack** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:32 pm

emperior wrote:I didn't pay attention to the possible plot-hole of Goku suddenly not being able to sense Toppo's God Ki. Maybe Toppo's God Ki is different? Or maybe Goku can only sense the God Ki of people below his current power level, meaning he would sense Toppo's power only as a Super Saiyan Blue. Although it really looks like Toyotaro just messed up.

Gokuh can’t sense god Ki at all in his base form. He can only feel the pressure. The anime is weird about this

Kanzenshuu

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