Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Khin]

Super have been messy with power scaling lately,either way,i decided to change my numbers for BOG and ROF.

Vegeta

Spoiler:

Enraged = 0.25

Galick Gun = 0.50

Goku

Spoiler:

Episode 10 = 1.0
- Goku can barely land any hits to Beerus and was just getting use the SSG power at that time.

Episode 11 = 2.0
- Despite Goku receiving a boost,Beerus was still dissapointed by Goku's power.

Episode 12 and 13 = 4.0
- Goku finally reached the peak of his God powers.

Episode 14 = 4.0
- Goku reverts back to his SSj self,however,he said that he feel like he didnt get any weaker

Beerus

Spoiler:

Surpressed = 0.20
- the power he used vs. the Goku,Vegeta,Gotenks etc..

10% = 1.0
- Beerus tanked Vegeta's Galick Gun with absolute ease

Episode 10 = 1.5

Episode 11 = 3.0

Episode 12,13 and 14 = 5.0

Full Power (Unseen) = 10.0

[ROCKYIII]

I feel sorry for you guys... Trying to make sense out of the dragonball power scale. Hint, it doesn't exist anymore characters are made stronger and weaker nonsensically to fit the story. Goku will be significantly weaker than beerus regardless of his new power ups because that's the way it's wanted by the author.... Until an arc comes where goku is supposed to surpass him and I'm sure it will not be through a new form it will just be through a line of "Goku you've been getting a lot stronger since training with whis, I bet you could even challenge beerus (even though you did already)!

The author doesn't care (at least about the logic of his own universe anymore) why should you.

[Bullza]

Vegeta didn't make normal gains, he drew out his dormant SSG powers, that's why he got so powerful all of a sudden

He had no dormant SSJG powers, that's just assumption. He just trained and got super strong.

Of course he did, it's a big increase in power.

Only if his power doubled. An increase of 10-20% is paltry. He knew Goku was holding back and then he powers up a bit and he acts nervous? Nah that makes no sense.

I believe that base Vegeta was still weaker than Freeza, but not extremely weaker.

That leaves barely any room to be the case. If base form is as stronger or stronger than SSJG or a 6+ and SSJB is a 7 then how can Golden Frieza be weak enough to hit Goku in the face and not hurt him and still be stronger than Vegeta?

Vegeta used SSB with a surprise attack against base Goku, and Goku survived the ki blast in his face without any scratch.

That doesn't mean anything, the same thing happened when Trunks went Super Saiyan and fired a Ki blast at the back of Goten's head and he didn't even say "Ow".

[Hugo Boss]

Here's a simple question for you all because I'm curious.

Who here thinks current base Goku is equal to (or stronger than) SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. What reason do you have to believe that?

And who thinks current base Goku is comfortably weaker than SSJG Goku from BoG/saga. Again what makes you think that?

In the first day of Goku's training on Beerus' planet, Whis directly compares Base Goku and Base Vegeta to the level of Gods and implies the difference is too big. The intent is to make them more powerful in that form, so they can see the realm which lies ahead (suposedly the God's realm of power). As far as Whis made that speech, there were 3 Gods: God of Destruction Beerus, Super Saiyan God and Whis. Vados and Champa appeared in the end of that episode, but I assume Whis was including them too.

Super Saiyan God's stuff resurges again in the story when Goku ascends to Super Saiyan Blue, so I suppose, even as powerful as he became in his base form, Goku still needs that form to reach the level of Gods. Perhaps there will be some point in the future that Goku will become as strong as Super Saiyan God without relying on transformations or miracles, but that didn't happen yet.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He had no dormant SSJG powers, that's just assumption. He just trained and got super strong.

If he haa just gotten super strong, then we have a plot-hole. He can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and he never became a Super Saiyan God. There is no other explanation.

Only if his power doubled. An increase of 10-20% is paltry. He knew Goku was holding back and then he powers up a bit and he acts nervous? Nah that makes no sense.

Since when does the rule "a significant increase exists only if the boost is x2"? Again, Super Saiyan Grades 2 & 3 have smaller than x2 boosts, yet they both give very significant boosts.

And since when can Freeza sense ki? I always saw him getting nervous because Goku turned into a Super Saiyan, since Super Saiyans has left him a psychological trauma for obvious reasons.

That leaves barely any room to be the case. If base form is as stronger or stronger than SSJG or a 6+ and SSJB is a 7 then how can Golden Freeza be weak enough to hit Goku in the face and not hurt him and still be stronger than Vegeta?

There is plenty of room.

Base Goku/Vegeta - 6
SSB Goku/Vegeta - 7.5
Golden Freeza - 8.5
Tired Golden Freeza - 6.2
Beerus - 10

That doesn't mean anything, the same thing happened when Trunks went Super Saiyan and fired a Ki blast at the back of Goten's head and he didn't even say "Ow".

Good point.

[Chillekasper]

I really like to see that the lowel lvl characters also get a role... That its not only about Goku and Vegeta, but that Piccolo, Gohan, Goten + Trunk (Gotenks) and also Krillin will get things to do and not only filler stuff.

[Bullza]

If he haa just gotten super strong, then we have a plot-hole. He can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and he never became a Super Saiyan God. There is no other explanation.

It's still not made clear because we haven't seen how they became a SSJG nor do we fully understand what SSJB is supposed to be.

We know that Vegeta trained with Whis for 6 months to the point he had just become capable of sensing Gods and was on par with Goku seemingly in his base form. Then he trained another 4 months after that.

Any strenght he'd gained has only been implied to be from that training. Maybe in a couple episodes when Vegeta transforms they'll elaborate on it.

Again, Super Saiyan Grades 2 & 3 have smaller than x2 boosts

Well I have doubts about that. Regular SSJ Vegeta would have been weaker than Semi Perfect Cell, Trunks was slightly weaker than that and yet when he became a USSJ Perfect Cell said he'd surpassed him by a wide margin. Piccolo also said he was stronger.

When they say SSJ3 is only twice as strong it might be referring to the mastered Super Saiyan state and not the regular Super Saiyan.

And since when can Freeza sense ki? I always saw him getting nervous because Goku turned into a Super Saiyan

He likely learned it during his training, he knew he was holding back anyway. It wouldn't have been because of his fear of Super Saiyans because he knew Goku could do that, he even asked him to turn into one.

He also said that it was a good thing that he'd pushed himself and achieved this new form after seeing it so it was definitley to do with his power increase.

There is plenty of room.

That's not much room. Going by what Toriyama said about Frieza compared to Beerus, he likely shouldn't be as high as a 8.5, it wouldn't put him that far off Champa.

If Beerus and SSJG Goku were still a 6 and 7 in Super then the gap between Frieza and SSJB Goku should be wider. Then the gap between SSJB Goku and a weakened Frieza should be wider still and then he shouldn't be higher than a 6 and it makes no sense why he'd be so sure he could beat Vegeta or why Vegeta would have to transform to fight him.

Goku and Vegeta also seem too high to believe that with 3 years of training they wouldn't be on Beerus' level.

The numbers only fit if their base form is weaker than SSJG.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's still not made clear because we haven't seen how they became a SSJG nor do we fully understand what SSJB is supposed to be.

We know that a Super Saiyan Blue/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. If Vegeta doesn't have the power of Super Saiyan God, it should be impossible for him to turn SSB by definition.

We know that Vegeta trained with Whis for 6 months to the point he had just become capable of sensing Gods and was on par with Goku seemingly in his base form. Then he trained another 4 months after that.

Any strenght he'd gained has only been implied to be from that training.

I'm not saying that his gains didn't come from his training. It is thanks to the training that he, apparently, drew out his Super Saiyan God dormant powers. We also know that he didn't do normal training. Not only it was very extreme training, as we saw, but he also learned from Whis how to control his ki (whatever that means), since Whis suggested him that unless he does that, he wouldn't ever come close to catching up to Goku.

Maybe in a couple episodes when Vegeta transforms they'll elaborate on it.

I guess we should wait until then. But from what we know so far, everything indicates without any doubt that Vegeta has the power of Super Saiyan God without becoming one, and he got this power through special training.

He likely learned it during his training, he knew he was holding back anyway. It wouldn't have been because of his fear of Super Saiyans because he knew Goku could do that, he even asked him to turn into one.

He also said that it was a good thing that he'd pushed himself and achieved this new form after seeing it so it was definitley to do with his power increase.

Knewing that your oponent is holding back has nothing to do with ki sensing. You can't sense when someone is holding back, you can only sense the power his is displaying at the moment. Freeza most likely knew that Goku was holding back because of his confidence, and because he already knew that Goku can become a Super Saiyan.

I'm also not saying that Freeza got scared when he saw him becoming a Super Saiyan, I doubt he got scared. It just annoyed him seeing one again for obvious reasons.

And if Freeza can sense ki, as you say (because literally nothing in FnF or Super says so to my knowledge), he shouldn't get any fear from SSB Goku's power, since he was still weaker than Golden Freeza.

That's not much room. Going by what Toriyama said about Freeza compared to Beerus, he likely shouldn't be as high as a 8.5, it wouldn't put him that far off Champa.

Where did you learn enough about Champa's power to compare him with Freeza? All we know is that he is strong enough to fight evenly with Beerus & destroy planets with their battles, and that he is the weakest of the two because he is the fat one.

Goku and Vegeta also seem too high to believe that with 3 years of training they wouldn't be on Beerus' level.

We have no idea how strong they have gotten, though I believe they will still be weaker than Beerus.

Also, don't forget that Goku & Vegeta have long reached their limits, ever since the Cell Games. It took Goku 7 years of intense training in AfterLife with Kaio & a dead body to surpass Gohan from the Cell Games, and Vegeta, who probably did even more intense training, failed to surpass Gohan and was forced to rely on Babidi's powers to reach Goku's level. And it's not like Gohan was many times stronger than them back in the Cell Games.

The numbers only fit if their base form is weaker than SSJG.

What's wrong with the numbers I posted?

[Chillekasper]

Between Goku/Vegeta and the rest of the Z-Warriors is a big gap. Are more people notice this, do you think this will change in the upcoming arcs?

[Bullza]

If Vegeta doesn't have the power of Super Saiyan God, it should be impossible for him to turn SSB by definition

But that depends on if SSJB has any connection to SSJG at all. Going by the quote it could simply be a form of Super Saiyan that has the power, as in power level of a Super Saiyan God.

Which would make it a form that can be learned which would make sense why Vegeta was able to become one without having become a Super Saiyan God or why Goku didn't turn Blue when he turned Super Saiyan to fight Beerus.

Where did you learn enough about Champa's power to compare him with Freeza?

It's as you said he's slightly weaker than Beerus. Even if he were only as little as 5% weaker than Beerus that'd put him at a 9.5 which doesn't put him a great deal above Frieza if he were as high as 8.5.

It's only an assumption but surely both of them are implied to be a good deal stronger than anyone else outside of Whis and Vados. Beerus is supposed to be on par with Goku and Vegeta together.

Also, don't forget that Goku & Vegeta have long reached their limits

Vegeta's strenght just went through the roof just by training for several months. The limits thing doesn't account for that much.

It makes no sense for Vegeta in just 6 months to be Super Saiyan God level in base form and then with 4 extra months of training, becoming a SSJB, then training for 3 years almost non stop with Goku as well for him then to surely be weaker than Beerus.

What's wrong with the numbers I posted?

They're too high and they're too tight.

Toriyama said that Frieza is no match for Beerus no matter what he did so for Frieza to be a 8.5 is too high considering Champa would be in the 9 range and he is a match for Beerus.

If SSJG Goku was a 6 and Beerus fought him at a 7, it means Beerus was 16.5% stronger and that fight was much more evenly matched compared to SSJB Goku and Golden Frieza.

So Golden Frieza can't only be 13.5% stronger than SSJB Goku. If he were a 8.5 then SSJB Goku has gotta be about a 7.

If Goku was about a 7 then a weak Golden Frieza would have to be in the mid-high 5 range which then doesn't make sense why he's confident he'd beat Vegeta or why Vegeta would have to transform if he were stronger at that point.

If however SSJB did double their power then their base form would only be about a 3.5 and that would make more sense and it'd be a better fit.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But that depends on if SSJB has any connection to SSJG at all. Going by the quote it could simply be a form of Super Saiyan that has the power, as in power level of a Super Saiyan God.

I really doubt this was the intention of the statement. Super Saiyan God isn't a set level of power, it varies depending on the power of the user. It has Super Saiyan God in its description, it has Super Saiyan God in its name, it even has characteristics of Super Saiyan God (godly ki)... I don't see anything how one would think that SSB has nothing to do with SSG. Not to mention that the way Goku talks, it sounds more like as if he is talking about a specific kind of power rather than battle powers. And he wouldn't have been so specific.

It's as you said he's slightly weaker than Beerus. Even if he were only as little as 5% weaker than Beerus that'd put him at a 9.5 which doesn't put him a great deal above Freeza if he were as high as 8.5.

It's only an assumption but surely both of them are implied to be a good deal stronger than anyone else outside of Whis and Vados. Beerus is supposed to be on par with Goku and Vegeta together.

You are making too many assumptions. We have nothing about how Champa relates to Freeza.

Vegeta's strenght just went through the roof just by training for several months. The limits thing doesn't account for that much.

It makes no sense for Vegeta in just 6 months to be Super Saiyan God level in base form and then with 4 extra months of training, becoming a SSJB, then training for 3 years almost non stop with Goku as well for him then to surely be weaker than Beerus.

Which is why his training gains being connected to Super Saiyan God makes sense.

Vegeta became hundreds, maybe thousands of times stronger in just 6 months, when he couldn't even double his power in 7 years. And then when he reaches the level of Super Saiyan God, his gains suddenly stop? And why did his Super Saiyan form stop making him much more powerful like they did before? Where did his x50 boost go? Why can he suddenly become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? How did he become so much stronger than Ultimate Gohan? Why didn't he make this kind of gains after 4 months of even better training (he didn't have a sparring partner before)?

They're too high and they're too tight.

You just don't like them. Freeza is still no match for Beerus or Champa. The Golden Freeza vs SSB Goku fight went like the Beerus vs SSG/Base/SS Goku fight before Freeza started getting tired. Base Vegeta's feats, and Freeza's actual lack of confidence (he was saying this while been nervous, how is that confidence?) show that base Vegeta is weaker, but not much weaker than tired Golden Freeza.

[Noah]

Yeah, it was a stupid reason to imply in DBS that Vegeta did reach the realm of the gods without becoming one first. In my head canon he did transformed in SSJG, don't know what on hell could happened to he had managed become so stronger in so little time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yeah, it was a stupid reason to imply in DBS that Vegeta did reach the realm of the gods without becoming one first. In my head canon he did transformed in SSJG, don't know what on hell could happened to he had managed become so stronger in so little time.

In Toriyama's continuity, it is implied that he became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power like Goku did, so you can go by that if you prefer to.

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan God isn't a set level of power, it varies depending on the power of the user. It has Super Saiyan God in its description, it has Super Saiyan God in its name, it even has characteristics of Super Saiyan God (godly ki)... I don't see anything how one would think that SSB has nothing to do with SSG.

Well the connection between the two forms is not made clear. Goku says it's a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God and later when Vegeta transforms he says that he has THE POWER of a God and not that he is a God.

How Vegeta is able to become one is also not clear because it's never said that he became a God. He trained and became able to sense godly Ki which presumably requires characters being at a high enough level to be able to do so which would explain why Frieza seemingly could sense Goku's Ki.

Then there was that talk of building up Ki internally which led to the SSJB tease and then they had to do it in the wannabe ROSAT and next thing you know they're SSJB.

How does SSJG fit in there?

You are making too many assumptions. We have nothing about how Champa relates to Freeza.

Those aren't really assumptions. Frieza is no match for Beerus and Champa seemingly is. He's not gonna be weaker than Frieza.

Which is why his training gains being connected to Super Saiyan God makes sense.

But there's nothing that implies or says that though and that's also with the assumption that he was as strong as Super Saiyan God at that point. Otherwise its possible that with Whis and advanced methods that he could have got to say a third as strong as SSJG after 6 months and then half as strong after another 4 months, as an example.

There's no real consistency with the rate these characters can grow.

You just don't like them.

For reasons I just gave. If Frieza is a 8.5 and Champa is only a 9 something then it doesn't make sense that he'd be no match. That's a smaller gap than SSJG Goku and Beerus at 70% and Goku was clearly for a match for him.

Golden Frieza beat SSJB Goku a lot easier and quicker than Beerus beat SSJG Goku so the gap between the former two being narrower doesn't make sense.

A weak Golden Frieza should not be above SSJG, you can't really believe that the Frieza who punched Goku and didn't hurt him would still be slightly stronger than the SSJG Goku that was putting up a good fight against Beerus.

And Frieza didn't act nervous when he said that to Vegeta, he was being all smug. It was only a little after talking about making Vegeta his commander.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well the connection between the two forms is not made clear. Goku says it's a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God and later when Vegeta transforms he says that he has THE POWER of a God and not that he is a God.

Vegeta just says that he can also become the legendary Super Saiyan, he doesn't say anything about God.

How Vegeta is able to become one is also not clear because it's never said that he became a God. He trained and became able to sense godly Ki which presumably requires characters being at a high enough level to be able to do so which would explain why Freeza seemingly could sense Goku's Ki.

Where did you get the idea that Freeza can sense ki again? If he could sense ki, he should be able to sense god ki, but he hasn't shown any sign of sensing ki as far as I know.

Then there was that talk of building up Ki internally which led to the SSJB tease and then they had to do it in the wannabe ROSAT and next thing you know they're SSJB.

How does SSJG fit in there?

In the statement that Goku is a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, in the name Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and from the fact that SSB gives godly ki, making him a god again.

Those aren't really assumptions. Freeza is no match for Beerus and Champa seemingly is. He's not gonna be weaker than Freeza.

And when did I ever say that Champa is weaker than Freeza?

But there's nothing that implies or says that though and that's also with the assumption that he was as strong as Super Saiyan God at that point. Otherwise its possible that with Whis and advanced methods that he could have got to say a third as strong as SSJG after 6 months and then half as strong after another 4 months, as an example.

There's no real consistency with the rate these characters can grow.

Goku had barely done any training before going with Whis, thanks to Chichi having him work, and Vegeta was said to be perhaps stronger than him. Then there are base Goku's feats against Beerus, and his & Vegeta's feats at the beginning of their training together, which places them close to SSG in base.

If Freeza is a 8.5 and Champa is only a 9 something then it doesn't make sense that he'd be no match. That's a smaller gap than SSJG Goku and Beerus at 70% and Goku was clearly for a match for him.

If Golden Freeza is a 8.5, he is no match for Beerus who is a 10. And Champa is just somewhere in the middle, closer to Beerus. That's all we know, and there is plenty of room between 10 & 8.5.

Golden Freeza beat SSJB Goku a lot easier and quicker than Beerus beat SSJG Goku so the gap between the former two being narrower doesn't make sense.

A weak Golden Freeza should not be above SSJG, you can't really believe that the Freeza who punched Goku and didn't hurt him would still be slightly stronger than the SSJG Goku that was putting up a good fight against Beerus.

The real fight between Goku & Beerus started in the cave. That's when Goku started using his full power, and that's when Beerus went 70%. God Goku couldn't land a hit, base Goku could only land a hit with Shunkan Ido, and SS Goku fought more fiercly and managed to hit him more than once, and even with a Kamehameha, but Beerus was still unscratched at the end of their fight while Goku was exhausted. In short worlds, they could fight, but Goku couldn't damage him. Neither Beerus at 70%, nor Golden Freeza at full power.

And Freeza didn't act nervous when he said that to Vegeta, he was being all smug. It was only a little after talking about making Vegeta his commander.

Vegeta: “Hey Kuririn, feed Kakarot a Senzu.”
Kuririn: “O-OK.”
Freeza: “I won’t allow it!!”

Freeza fires a powerful energy blast! But Vegeta knocks it back!

Sorbet: “Gyaaaah…!!”

The deflected blast annihilates Sorbet. Freeza’s astonished that his full-power energy blast was deflected.

Kuririn hurries to feed Goku a Senzu.

Kuririn: “Hang in there! Good thing we’ve got one left.”

Goku recovers.

Goku: “Phew, thanks Vegeta! You saved my bacon!”
Vegeta: “Hmph, only because I’m taking the best part for myself.”
Goku: “Yeah, I know. You can swap in for me.”

Freeza glares at Vegeta.

Freeza: “Hoh…Hohhohhoh…T-There’s no way you could ever defeat me.”
Vegeta: “Haaaa---ah…!!” *Boom!*

Vegeta transforms into the same light blue Super Saiyan as Goku. Freeza’s astonished.

Look at how Freeza laughed & spoke the last time. That's what confidence looks like?!

[GodVegetto91]

Super Saiyan God isn't a set level of power, it varies depending on the power of the user. It has Super Saiyan God in its description, it has Super Saiyan God in its name, it even has characteristics of Super Saiyan God (godly ki)... I don't see anything how one would think that SSB has nothing to do with SSG.

Well the connection between the two forms is not made clear. Goku says it's a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God and later when Vegeta transforms he says that he has THE POWER of a God and not that he is a God.

How Vegeta is able to become one is also not clear because it's never said that he became a God. He trained and became able to sense godly Ki which presumably requires characters being at a high enough level to be able to do so which would explain why Freeza seemingly could sense Goku's Ki.

Then there was that talk of building up Ki internally which led to the SSJB tease and then they had to do it in the wannabe ROSAT and next thing you know they're SSJB.

How does SSJG fit in there?

You are making too many assumptions. We have nothing about how Champa relates to Freeza.

Those aren't really assumptions. Freeza is no match for Beerus and Champa seemingly is. He's not gonna be weaker than Freeza.

Which is why his training gains being connected to Super Saiyan God makes sense.

But there's nothing that implies or says that though and that's also with the assumption that he was as strong as Super Saiyan God at that point. Otherwise its possible that with Whis and advanced methods that he could have got to say a third as strong as SSJG after 6 months and then half as strong after another 4 months, as an example.

There's no real consistency with the rate these characters can grow.

You just don't like them.

For reasons I just gave. If Freeza is a 8.5 and Champa is only a 9 something then it doesn't make sense that he'd be no match. That's a smaller gap than SSJG Goku and Beerus at 70% and Goku was clearly for a match for him.

Golden Freeza beat SSJB Goku a lot easier and quicker than Beerus beat SSJG Goku so the gap between the former two being narrower doesn't make sense.

A weak Golden Freeza should not be above SSJG, you can't really believe that the Freeza who punched Goku and didn't hurt him would still be slightly stronger than the SSJG Goku that was putting up a good fight against Beerus.

And Freeza didn't act nervous when he said that to Vegeta, he was being all smug. It was only a little after talking about making Vegeta his commander.

I said it before and i'll say it again. You shouldn't use the DUB for debating. In the original japanese version Vegeta NEVER said he had the power of a god. But rather "I've now managed to become the legendary super saiyan too." You're relying to much on the dub. Also we know full well that the SSGSS Form IS a GOD Form. It has now been confirmed to posses Godly Ki too. To the point where Krillin even said: "I can't sense ANY ki from Goku AT ALL!" So there you have it. SSGSS is as much of a GOD as SSG!

[Bullza]

Vegeta just says that he can also become the legendary Super Saiyan, he doesn't say anything about God.

Then it must have been a dub line only, but even there he doesn't say he was a God.

Where did you get the idea that Freeza can sense ki again? If he could sense ki, he should be able to sense god ki, but he hasn't shown any sign of sensing ki as far as I know.

Besides the line about knowing Goku was holding back, his reaction to Goku powering up and turning SSJB followed by his comment about how it was a good thing he'd trained or he'd be in trouble there was also the scene when he was fighting Goku in his base form and he was firing Ki blasts directly at Goku through a thick cloud of smoke. He did the exact same thing on Namek but the blasts went everywhere which led to Goku saying Frieza couldn't sense Ki.

In the statement that Goku is a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, in the name Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and from the fact that SSB gives godly ki, making him a god again.

I don't mean through words. How is SSJG connected to SSJB? Vegeta never became a SSJG and yet he became a SSJB which obviously means that SSJG isn't needed to be able to train and be able to become a SSJB.

And when did I ever say that Champa is weaker than Freeza?

I didn't say you did.

Then there are base Goku's feats against Beerus, and his & Vegeta's feats at the beginning of their training together, which places them close to SSG in base.

They're obviously incredibly strong in their base forms but that doesn't mean they're close to SSJG. If Goku was already that close to SSJG and after 4 months training he'd grown noticeably stronger as said by Beerus then he became a SSJB on top of that then why is he not stronger than he is?

Taking away the assumption that it's because of some inner SSJG powers it doesn't make sense for Vegeta to rise that quickly in power in 6 months then stagnate over the next 4 months. Whis' comparison also makes no sense.

If Golden Freeza is a 8.5, he is no match for Beerus who is a 10.

Why? When the difference between an 8.5 and 10 is a mere 1% greater than the difference between a 6 and 7 and SSJG was obviously a match for Beerus at 70%. How does that extra 1% make all the difference?

The real fight between Goku & Beerus started in the cave. That's when Goku started using his full power, and that's when Beerus went 70%.

Yeah and in the cave scene Goku did hurt Beerus when he hit him in the gut because he raged for a moment, then they were going back and forth evenly while fighting through the clouds, then he fired a Kamehameha at Beerus which gave him a little fright and then he took on Beerus attack which he was able to stop and what left him exhausted.

And that's just the movie. In Super again if the power levels are the same then that fight was also evenly matched in a lot of places.

On the other hand in RoF and particularly in Super, Golden Frieza beat Goku much easier and faster than what Beerus did. So it doesn't make sense for the gap to be smaller when it's clearly larger.

Look at how Freeza laughed & spoke the last time. That's what confidence looks like?

Must be different again in the sub because he wasn't like that in the dub version.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Then it must have been a dub line only, but even there he doesn't say he was a God.

Even though it is implied that he did go through SSG in Toriyama's movies, we know for a fact that he never became a SSG in Super. However, according to Goku you need the power of SSG in order to become a SSB. Goku obtained this power by absorbing the power of SSG after becoming one. Vegeta apparently obtained that power through Whis' special training, there is no other explanation.

Besides the line about knowing Goku was holding back, his reaction to Goku powering up and turning SSJB followed by his comment about how it was a good thing he'd trained or he'd be in trouble there was also the scene when he was fighting Goku in his base form and he was firing Ki blasts directly at Goku through a thick cloud of smoke. He did the exact same thing on Namek but the blasts went everywhere which led to Goku saying Freeza couldn't sense Ki.

I see then.

They're obviously incredibly strong in their base forms but that doesn't mean they're close to SSJG. If Goku was already that close to SSJG and after 4 months training he'd grown noticeably stronger as said by Beerus then he became a SSJB on top of that then why is he not stronger than he is?

Beerus said that Goku's power decreased insignificantly after he lost SSG in the movie. He fough better in base than he did as a SSG at full power in the movie. He managed to stop the huge ball in base while he couldn't do it as a SS in Super. DBH calls him a Saiyan that has surpassed God. The FnF manga implies that he is as strong as SSG.
These are what put him & Vegeta at SSG level in base.

Why? When the difference between an 8.5 and 10 is a mere 1% greater than the difference between a 6 and 7 and SSJG was obviously a match for Beerus at 70%. How does that extra 1% make all the difference?

Look at Vegeta & Zarbon, there was a very big difference between 24.000 & 23.000, going by the Daizenshuu numbers. And while Goku was a match for Beerus at 70%, he couldn't damage him at all, nor did he make him lose his breath, which shows that there was a big difference in their powers. The fight ends the same way in Super.

On the other hand in RoF and particularly in Super, Golden Freeza beat Goku much easier and faster than what Beerus did. So it doesn't make sense for the gap to be smaller when it's clearly larger.

Fine, then Freeza may be a 8.2 & Goku a 7.7. The numbers I posted aren't supposed to be literal like the 15-10-6 ones, they are supposed to give a general idea of the gaps, and to my knowledge, they do a good job.

Must be different again in the sub because he wasn't like that in the dub version.

You shouldn't be checking the dub (or Viz) for debates.

[supercat]

The meaning of Sorbet's words is about Tagoma surpassing Ginyu Force while Shisami doesn't. You may argue if your powerscale is according to it or not, but it's pretty much what is said. I remember Zarbon because he is the first to come in mind that is weaker than Ginyu Force, but you can stretch it to mean Shisami is almost as strong as Ginyu Force. By the way, Shisami's grip doesn't seem to faze Gohan at all, so Gohan should be a lot stronger than Shisami.

None of your speculations really make any sense to me.

You do realize that Tagoma surpassing the Ginyu Force doesn't automatically mean that his power level is just barely over 120,000 right? Him being in the billions (which is likely) wouldn't make the statement any less valid. I'm assuming the Ginyu Force's power level was the highest documented power, and therefore, was used as a benchmark.

Also, what does Shisami have to do with any of this? Are you saying that since Tagoma was the only one who was recognized as surpassing the Ginyu Force by some unknown amount, Shisami is automatically below that?

Again, do you really think anyone in the Namek arc (barring Freeza) could deflect Gohan's blasts at this point?

I never said Tagoma is just a bit stronger than Ginyu Force, he can be at whatever dimension you want. Just like you said, it's a benchmark. Actually, this is the only tangible thing you can use to make up your powerlevels in regards to Tagoma and Shisami in Dragon Ball Super. If they can fight Gohan is another subject, but Shisami can't be stronger than Ginyu Force.

So despite nothing contradicting Shisami being worlds above the Ginyu Force, and there being a few notable feats (Shisami vs Gohan and Piccolo) that point towards him receiving a major power boost, he still has to be weaker than the Ginyus... Strange isn't it?

Then what the fuck does that make Piccolo and Base Gohan? Zarbon-tier? Dodoria-tier? This is probably one of the most ridiculous discussions I've participated in.

[dbzfan7]

I feel sorry for you guys... Trying to make sense out of the dragonball power scale. Hint, it doesn't exist anymore characters are made stronger and weaker nonsensically to fit the story. Goku will be significantly weaker than beerus regardless of his new power ups because that's the way it's wanted by the author.... Until an arc comes where goku is supposed to surpass him and I'm sure it will not be through a new form it will just be through a line of "Goku you've been getting a lot stronger since training with whis, I bet you could even challenge beerus (even though you did already)!

The author doesn't care (at least about the logic of his own universe anymore) why should you.

It's no different than GT to me, so I give it the same treatment of "They really didn't care and just did whatever they wanted, so why should I bother trying to figure out what they didn't?"