Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Bullza wrote:Freeza getting that strong in just 4 months is lazy writing so matter how you try to justify it sorry.
I just wish people would stop harping on it. It's been talked to death and, ultimately, is completely negligible to the story at large. Especially since we don't know if there's anything more to the 4 months of training.
He trained for four months and became strong enough to beat Son Goku. That's happening. Accept it and let's move on, yeah?
I understand the thought behind it and I appreciate the originality of a villain training to get stronger to reach the level of the heroes for once but I'll bet it could have been handled much better than it will be.
I don't particularly hate the idea but it would have been more sensible if he'd spent the 4 months training in the ROSAT which probably won't end up being the case.
I mean really how does he train? He probably doesn't have a gravity machine, he doesn't have anyone to spar with, he doesn't revive zenkai boosts etc.
If it's just some off screen thing then that'd be hugely disappointing and cheap.
You know, I hope they don't show or imply anything about Frieza's actual training. That way, it's up for discussion and we can make up shit like we usually do about things that are not explained at all in the series.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
GoldLiger wrote:If you guys don't know the whole cannibalization process when it comes to the story it goes like this:
Gohan has Mystic Mode.
Vegeta needs a mode that won't change his looks like SSG does to Goku
Make Gohan loose his Mystic Mode by stupid idiotic reasons.
GIve Mystic Mode to Vegeta.
End
Mystic Mode is just a way of saying: "Character using the most powerful abilities without changing his looks at all".
Isn't it much easier to just let Old Kaioshin to perform a ritual which unlocks all power on Vegeta?
Toriyama probably forgot about that too. Like he forgot that Old Kai lived in a era that Majin Buu didn't exists.
Dragon Ball Heroes God Mission = Best sets of missions so far
Bullza wrote:Freeza getting that strong in just 4 months is lazy writing so matter how you try to justify it sorry.
I just wish people would stop harping on it. It's been talked to death and, ultimately, is completely negligible to the story at large. Especially since we don't know if there's anything more to the 4 months of training.
He trained for four months and became strong enough to beat Son Goku. That's happening. Accept it and let's move on, yeah?
I understand the thought behind it and I appreciate the originality of a villain training to get stronger to reach the level of the heroes for once but I'll bet it could have been handled much better than it will be.
I don't particularly hate the idea but it would have been more sensible if he'd spent the 4 months training in the ROSAT which probably won't end up being the case.
I mean really how does he train? He probably doesn't have a gravity machine, he doesn't have anyone to spar with, he doesn't revive zenkai boosts etc.
If it's just some off screen thing then that'd be hugely disappointing and cheap.
I wonder how someone who has no concept of training, is supposed to know how to get that strong. Freeza somehow knows he can get stronger than Boo at least in 4 month's. How would he know? He's never trained and has no concept of training regiments, diminished returns, etc. I also find the new form kinda weird as before they were only suppressors rather than enhancers. I'm curious as to how he discovers all this. Though my money is on them not showing jack shit how Freeza accomplished this.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Do you see me complaining about Goku losing in order for Vegeta to kick Freeza's sorry behind ?
Well... No. I just don't like that Goku is always beaten now, it just looks lame. He is supposed to be a martial artist with tons of experience, hard training and powers, yet he is still beaten the second movie in a row, like he is nothing, just annoys me. Don't even want to say anything about Gohan... and pretty much anyone else.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I really do not understand the complaints about the four months training thing, I mean we literally had Goku and co train for one day in a room and all of sudden they can challenge Cell, or something as ridiculous as the Saiyans having Zenkai, Dragon Ball pretty much made up stuff as it went along (at least it felt that way) it is not renown for having brilliant, flawless writing. Let's just enjoy the result of Freeza's powerup.
But that's the point. They trained in the Hyperbolic Chamber, which means, that they actually trained for a year. And it still wasn't enough for either Goku or Gohan to defeat Cell, though Goku probably could dealt plenty of damage to Cell, if he actually tried. Anyway, it was a whole year, and they were barely there. Now apparently Frieza needs only 4 months in order to rival SSJ God which is alone on a whole different level from SSJ3, which Goku needed to train for for about 7 years, and he still didn't quite master it even then.
Last edited by Mystic Tien on Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:I just don't like that Goku is always beaten now, it just looks lame.
It won't looks as bad whenever he gets a big win which will probably be in the next movie.
Honestly I would rather watch at Goku defeating Frieza along with Vegeta. I don't care who would deal a final blow, it can be Goku, but in that case I wish that Vegeta would deal a lot of damage to Frieza prior.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
I wonder how someone who has no concept of training, is supposed to know how to get that strong. Freeza somehow knows he can get stronger than Boo at least in 4 month's. How would he know? He's never trained and has no concept of training regiments, diminished returns, etc. I also find the new form kinda weird as before they were only suppressors rather than enhancers. I'm curious as to how he discovers all this. Though my money is on them not showing jack shit how Freeza accomplished this.
Exactly, I can see it all being handled in a poor way. They may just fast forward over that 4 months so nothing was even shown.
Goku and the others have been trained by several masters even Beerus, Vegeta and most of the others have been fighting since they were children. They've taken advantage of special weighted clothing, Dr Briefs technical genius, sparring with partners who are on the same level, being told other useful methods of training and even used Shenron to ask how to become a Super Saiyan God.
How Frieza is going to know how to train and how he's going to improve that much is surely going to be lousy storytelling.
Last edited by Bullza on Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I really do not understand the complaints about the four months training thing, I mean we literally had Goku and co train for one day in a room and all of sudden they can challenge Cell, or something as ridiculous as the Saiyans having Zenkai, Dragon Ball pretty much made up stuff as it went along (at least it felt that way) it is not renown for having brilliant, flawless writing. Let's just enjoy the result of Freeza's powerup.
But that's the point. They trained in the Hyperbolic Chamber, which means, that they actually trained for a year. And it still wasn't enough for either Goku or Gohan to defeat Cell, though Goku probably could dealt plenty of damage to Cell, if he actually tried. Anyway, it was a whole year, and they were barely there. Now apparently Freeza needs only 4 months in order to rival SSJ God which is alone on a whole different level from SSJ3, which Goku needed to train for for about 7 years, and he still didn't quite master it even then.
Goku managed to increase his power at least 20 times over inside of 5 days. It's a big Galaxy. Could find a massive gravity well and train in it, could subject his body to levels of punishment that would make people's jaw drop to attain it.
But in the end, you have to remember Freeza is stated to be exceptionally gifted. Vegeta learned a few new techniques just in the space of one battle here on Earth as well as taught himself to read ki and disguise his own power as the Earthlings did between said battle and arriving on Namek. And Freeza's apparently on a level above even that.
Bullza wrote:
I wonder how someone who has no concept of training, is supposed to know how to get that strong. Freeza somehow knows he can get stronger than Boo at least in 4 month's. How would he know? He's never trained and has no concept of training regiments, diminished returns, etc. I also find the new form kinda weird as before they were only suppressors rather than enhancers. I'm curious as to how he discovers all this. Though my money is on them not showing jack shit how Freeza accomplished this.
Exactly, I can see it all being handled in a poor way. They may just fast forward over that 4 months so nothing was even shown.
Goku and the others have been trained by several masters even Beerus, Vegeta and most of the others have been fighting since they were children. They've taken advantage of special weighted clothing, Dr Briefs technical genius, sparring with partners who are on the same level, being told other useful methods of training and even used Shenron to ask how to become a Super Saiyan God.
How Freeza is going to know how to train and how he's going to improve that much is surely going to be handled poorly.
Or he could ask one of the many warriors he's recruited.
Just because he's never had to train himself doesn't mean it's a completely foreign concept to him. I'm sure he's watched his men do it at some point in the past. Seems folks are looking to borrow trouble at this point.
"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird (1960)
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” - Nelson Mandela
I love how this guy's name is Mystic Tien, but when you quote him, the post changes it to Tenshinhan.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
I wonder how someone who has no concept of training, is supposed to know how to get that strong. Freeza somehow knows he can get stronger than Boo at least in 4 month's. How would he know? He's never trained and has no concept of training regiments, diminished returns, etc. I also find the new form kinda weird as before they were only suppressors rather than enhancers. I'm curious as to how he discovers all this. Though my money is on them not showing jack shit how Freeza accomplished this.
Exactly, I can see it all being handled in a poor way. They may just fast forward over that 4 months so nothing was even shown.
Goku and the others have been trained by several masters even Beerus, Vegeta and most of the others have been fighting since they were children. They've taken advantage of special weighted clothing, Dr Briefs technical genius, sparring with partners who are on the same level, being told other useful methods of training and even used Shenron to ask how to become a Super Saiyan God.
How Freeza is going to know how to train and how he's going to improve that much is surely going to be lousy storytelling.
Above everything else I want an explanation. Fuck the prodigy only excuse, I want a real answer of what he does. I'm afraid that's exactly what this movie will rely on. Freeza's a prodigy now and we don't have to explain shit. I hope Freeza travels to another universe and finds someone there who trains him. Or maybe someone from another universe bestows great power onto Freeza. Have that maybe be a set up to other universes becoming the setting of the next plot. I'd accept something like that.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I really do not understand the complaints about the four months training thing, I mean we literally had Goku and co train for one day in a room and all of sudden they can challenge Cell, or something as ridiculous as the Saiyans having Zenkai, Dragon Ball pretty much made up stuff as it went along (at least it felt that way) it is not renown for having brilliant, flawless writing. Let's just enjoy the result of Freeza's powerup.
But that's the point. They trained in the Hyperbolic Chamber, which means, that they actually trained for a year. And it still wasn't enough for either Goku or Gohan to defeat Cell, though Goku probably could dealt plenty of damage to Cell, if he actually tried. Anyway, it was a whole year, and they were barely there. Now apparently Freeza needs only 4 months in order to rival SSJ God which is alone on a whole different level from SSJ3, which Goku needed to train for for about 7 years, and he still didn't quite master it even then.
Goku managed to increase his power at least 20 times over inside of 5 days. It's a big Galaxy. Could find a massive gravity well and train in it, could subject his body to levels of punishment that would make people's jaw drop to attain it.
But in the end, you have to remember Freeza is stated to be exceptionally gifted. Vegeta learned a few new techniques just in the space of one battle here on Earth as well as taught himself to read ki and disguise his own power as the Earthlings did between said battle and arriving on Namek. And Freeza's apparently on a level above even that.
And I don't have a problem with Frieza becoming stronger as I stated before. The only real problem which I have with it is Frieza achieving power level of SSJ God in amount of a few months, while even Goku didn't manage to get even close to if ater all these years. I would have been okay with it, if Frieza trained for 10 years, or better 20 years, and got to power level of SSJ3 Goku, but honestly, SSJ God, moreover in amount of 4 months, it is just too much. Frieza doesn't have zenkais which were a huge help in pretty much anything related to power up of saiyans. It was alone a big reason why Goku power upped so much during his trip on Namek (not that it makes much sense) and why he powered up even more in Namek itself (which didn't make a single bit of sense), but Frieza doesn't possess this ability, Cell does. That is a huge problem for me with Frieza becoming so strong in such a short amount of time.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
Mystic Tien wrote:
And I don't have a problem with Freeza becoming stronger as I stated before. The only real problem which I have with it is Freeza achieving power level of SSJ God in amount of a few months, while even Goku didn't manage to get even close to if ater all these years. I would have been okay with it, if Freeza trained for 10 years, or better 20 years, and got to power level of SSJ3 Goku, but honestly, SSJ God, moreover in amount of 4 months, it is just too much. Freeza doesn't have zenkais which were a huge help in pretty much anything related to power up of saiyans. It was alone a big reason why Goku power upped so much during his trip on Namek (not that it makes much sense) and why he powered up even more in Namek itself (which didn't make a single bit of sense), but Freeza doesn't possess this ability, Cell does. That is a huge problem for me with Freeza becoming so strong in such a short amount of time.
Well for all we know, AT could make something like Zenkai up for Freeza too. Freeza naturally is stronger than Goku, no training and Freeza pretty much handled Goku (until he transformed) each month (of training) to Freeza could be something like one or two years to Goku. I do not think Freeza training for four months to rival Goku is far-fetched at all compared to Dragon Ball standards. Honestly I hope the film glosses over all this because I really don't give a rat's behind about how Freeza trained and it is waste of time.
Or he could ask one of the many warriors he's recruited.
Like who? Nobody should be even remotely close enough to his power for him to benefit from sparring. He said in the first chapter of the manga that his men had grown weak.
Unless maybe he spars with all of them, though you'd think he'd kill most of them without even trying.
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
And I don't have a problem with Freeza becoming stronger as I stated before. The only real problem which I have with it is Freeza achieving power level of SSJ God in amount of a few months, while even Goku didn't manage to get even close to if ater all these years. I would have been okay with it, if Freeza trained for 10 years, or better 20 years, and got to power level of SSJ3 Goku, but honestly, SSJ God, moreover in amount of 4 months, it is just too much. Freeza doesn't have zenkais which were a huge help in pretty much anything related to power up of saiyans. It was alone a big reason why Goku power upped so much during his trip on Namek (not that it makes much sense) and why he powered up even more in Namek itself (which didn't make a single bit of sense), but Freeza doesn't possess this ability, Cell does. That is a huge problem for me with Freeza becoming so strong in such a short amount of time.
Well for all we know, AT could make something like Zenkai up for Freeza too. Freeza naturally is stronger than Goku, no training and Freeza pretty much handled Goku (until he transformed) each month (of training) to Freeza could be something like one or two years to Goku. I do not think Freeza training for four months to rival Goku is far-fetched at all compared to Dragon Ball standards. Honestly I hope the film glosses over all this because I really don't give a rat's behind about how Freeza trained and it is waste of time.
Well, my real problem with it is how SSJ God was presented as something outstanding, something which couldn't have been achieved by simple training, no matter how hard you train, but apparently Frieza achieves it quite easily. If it was only SSJ3, I wouldn't have even close as many problems with it, as I have now. By the way was it confirmed that Frieza achieved power level of SSJ God Goku with training? Maybe he indeed achieved only power level of SSJ3 Goku, and then got something else to top it off?
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
And I don't have a problem with Freeza becoming stronger as I stated before. The only real problem which I have with it is Freeza achieving power level of SSJ God in amount of a few months, while even Goku didn't manage to get even close to if ater all these years. I would have been okay with it, if Freeza trained for 10 years, or better 20 years, and got to power level of SSJ3 Goku, but honestly, SSJ God, moreover in amount of 4 months, it is just too much. Freeza doesn't have zenkais which were a huge help in pretty much anything related to power up of saiyans. It was alone a big reason why Goku power upped so much during his trip on Namek (not that it makes much sense) and why he powered up even more in Namek itself (which didn't make a single bit of sense), but Freeza doesn't possess this ability, Cell does. That is a huge problem for me with Freeza becoming so strong in such a short amount of time.
Well for all we know, AT could make something like Zenkai up for Freeza too. Freeza naturally is stronger than Goku, no training and Freeza pretty much handled Goku (until he transformed) each month (of training) to Freeza could be something like one or two years to Goku. I do not think Freeza training for four months to rival Goku is far-fetched at all compared to Dragon Ball standards. Honestly I hope the film glosses over all this because I really don't give a rat's behind about how Freeza trained and it is waste of time.
Well, my real problem with it is how SSJ God was presented as something outstanding, something which couldn't have been achieved by simple training, no matter how hard you train, but apparently Freeza achieves it quite easily. If it was only SSJ3, I wouldn't have even close as many problems with it, as I have now. By the way was it confirmed that Freeza achieved power level of SSJ God Goku with training? Maybe he indeed achieved only power level of SSJ3 Goku, and then got something else to top it off?
No one knows as the nature of his new form hasn't really been revealed completely.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Toei is doing a freaking good job witt the suspense around Vegeta. That power up scene is so teasing!!
The overall quality keeps looking better than BOG. So Hype!
Well I guess, it's on autopilot mode and there are no brakes on the hype train!
