Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I'd say if anything it was connected to the Super Saiyan Grade 3 form that Trunks used against Vegeta. He clearly uses the form a few times prior to turning into Rage.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I've always viewed SSRage as the strongest that the regular SS form could ever get, reaching into the realm of lower gods like SSB.

Instead of it possessing some unknown quantity of power from SSG/B with its blue aura, I've gone with the headcanon that the blue sparks of SS2/3 are actually the precursor to the fully blue aura that SSRage possesses. Basically, this is the PERFECT SS form that doesn't utilize any of SSG's power, only being rivaled by Gohan's trained-up Ultimate state.

I agree with that. I feel like the strongest forms are: SSRage, SSBlue, SSBerserker, Ultimate, Ultra Instinct.

They are all different pathways though. Would you say that SSRage continues on from SS2, and SS3 is like a side branch?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've always viewed SSRage as the strongest that the regular SS form could ever get, reaching into the realm of lower gods like SSB.

Instead of it possessing some unknown quantity of power from SSG/B with its blue aura, I've gone with the headcanon that the blue sparks of SS2/3 are actually the precursor to the fully blue aura that SSRage possesses. Basically, this is the PERFECT SS form that doesn't utilize any of SSG's power, only being rivaled by Gohan's trained-up Ultimate state.

I agree with that. I feel like the strongest forms are: SSRage, SSBlue, SSBerserker, Ultimate, Ultra Instinct.

They are all different pathways though. Would you say that SSRage continues on from SS2, and SS3 is like a side branch?

Somewhat. SS2 was very clearly unlocked through rage, just like the original SS form. Now, one CAN train for SS and SS2, but it's pretty damn hard. SS3 seems like an "attempt" to push into the upper limits of the SS form's power, but is done the wrong way because it suffers the drainage flaws of the Graded branches.

Basically, I view the situation as Future Trunks getting A LOT stronger and unlocking SS2 all by himself before finally gathering up enough "I've had enough of your sh*t" rage with Goku Black and Future Zamasu mocking his efforts to save his timeline that he rages out from SS2 and gains SSRage.

Another headcanon I have on that matter is that Vegeta briefly tapped into this same kind of power, but was unable to hold onto it because he wasn't as strong as Future Trunks and had yet to have experienced the power of gods firsthand.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I've always viewed SSRage as the strongest that the regular SS form could ever get, reaching into the realm of lower gods like SSB.

Instead of it possessing some unknown quantity of power from SSG/B with its blue aura, I've gone with the headcanon that the blue sparks of SS2/3 are actually the precursor to the fully blue aura that SSRage possesses. Basically, this is the PERFECT SS form that doesn't utilize any of SSG's power, only being rivaled by Gohan's trained-up Ultimate state.

I agree with that. I feel like the strongest forms are: SSRage, SSBlue, SSBerserker, Ultimate, Ultra Instinct.

They are all different pathways though. Would you say that SSRage continues on from SS2, and SS3 is like a side branch?

Somewhat. SS2 was very clearly unlocked through rage, just like the original SS form. Now, one CAN train for SS and SS2, but it's pretty damn hard. SS3 seems like an "attempt" to push into the upper limits of the SS form's power, but is done the wrong way because it suffers the drainage flaws of the Graded branches.

Basically, I view the situation as Future Trunks getting A LOT stronger and unlocking SS2 all by himself before finally gathering up enough "I've had enough of your sh*t" rage with Goku Black and Future Zamasu mocking his efforts to save his timeline that he rages out from SS2 and gains SSRage.

Another headcanon I have on that matter is that Vegeta briefly tapped into this same kind of power, but was unable to hold onto it because he wasn't as strong as Future Trunks and had yet to have experienced the power of gods firsthand.

I had the same idea that Rageta was related to this in some degree. It was almost the psuedo-unlocking of SSRage, but he was not able to actualize it. Thus, ending up being just a rage boost.

[Sora Saiyan]

SSJ1 = 10
SSJ2 = 20
SSJ3 = 80
SSJG = 100 <-- I would place it here. 10% SSJB should be equal to it, when Vegeta was less than that against Hit, and Goku used SSJG to hit SSJ2 Trunks in the manga.
SSJB = 1'000

That's where the manga has one of its inconsistencies. The form Beerus is hyped about is only a touch stronger than SSJ3, because of that stupid line from that Hit fight. I follow the BoG movie instead of the Manga, and anime versions, but mainly the manga from Uni 6. So then you have SSJ Vegetto being weaker than SSJG and a touch over SSJ3. None of it makes any sense, then later SSJ2 Vegeta is way, way over 50x stronger than Goku's SSJ3 (vs Trunks) because of how he stomped SSJ Black. I think I'll chalk that line in the Uni 6 arc down to inconsistency. Previous and later showings just show how inconsistent it is.

[Desassina]

That's where the manga has one of its inconsistencies. The form Beerus is hyped about is only a touch stronger than SSJ3, because of that stupid line from that Hit fight. I follow the BoG movie instead of the Manga, and anime versions, but mainly the manga from Uni 6. So then you have SSJ Vegetto being weaker than SSJG and a touch over SSJ3. None of it makes any sense, then later SSJ2 Vegeta is way, way over 50x stronger than Goku's SSJ3 (vs Trunks) because of how he stomped SSJ Black. I think I'll chalk that line in the Uni 6 arc down to inconsistency. Previous and later showings just show how inconsistent it is.

You don't need to. Goku was brought to another level from his current (at the time) Buu saga power, and then he matched it with SSJ against Beerus, which means that his base was going to be stronger and that SSJG wouldn't wield the same kind of increase. It was a ritual, after all, when Goku learned how to use SSJG on his own in the Tournament of Power/Universe 6 Tournament in the manga. His regular transformations are still below SSJG, while using SSJ3 and being matched by Trunks means that the latter was "inconsistently" strong, but trained by Kaioshin when Dabura must have been stronger nonetheless. In other words, or numbers...

-- Battle of Gods --

SSJ Goku (God) = 1'000
SSJ2 Vegetto = 200
Goku (God) = 100
SSJ3 Goku = 80

-- Resurrection of F --

SSJB (10%) Goku = 16'000
Goku vs Freeza = 160
Freeza (1st) = 16
SSJ Gohan = 8

-- U6 Tournament --

SSJB Goku (100%) = 200'000
SSJG Goku vs Hit = 20'000
SSJB (5%) Vegeta = 10'000
Base Goku/Vegeta = 200

I still haven't read the Future Trunks Zamasu arc with the same kind of attention.

[LowRyder2005]

The manga is more than slightly confusing at times, but it looks like you might be lead to read a little too much into the figures of speech. Whis saying Vegeta lost "over 90% of his power" is just there to remind us Vegeta was almost completely depleted of energy; besides, Vegeta losing "99,9%" of his power would hold strikingly different numerical connotations than a simple 90,1%. Just to show how ambiguous the wording actually is.

Regarding Black vs. Trunks, like previously said either Black has comparatively low multipliers or SS Trunks vs. base Black had all to do with Trunks' being half-dead, not accuratingly representing Trunks' full power. There is the fact that Black was not transforming into a Super Saiyan for a long time but logically speaking it could easily be a non-factor: with Black growing already many times stronger than Trunks' base form, it'd just mean Black had no reason to transform because Trunks would normally never try to fight Black head-on. I'd also like to bring attention to the fact we all know Trunks vs. base Black was first and foremost included, almost certainly, to promote the anime's episode content and the advertised Black's "base Goku" appearance -- in one of the very last, if not the very last, play-by-plays the manga did. Now, in the anime Vegeta still isn't that far above Goku; plus, Black's strength is in general described at levels somewhat above SS3 Goku, which with this outlook would hold true in both media.

I still deem pretty significant that Vegeta, much later (after sensing Trunks and being relatively impressed) just opts to give a dry comment about Black being above his son after he prologendly fights the transformed Black. You'd think that if Black was an amazing 5,000 times above that amount the manga would portray things differently for a plethora of reason.
Furthermore, given the premises of the series and what we've grown accustomed with, the idea that with the same amount of training Vegeta became hundreds of times stronger than Goku sounds, to be honest, like a near impossibility; I doubt even a "storytelling 101" author would insert it in so haphazardly. Less severe gaps were always treated as relatively crucial plot points, but Vegeta becomes thousands of times stronger off screen?

[spoiler]Still on the matter of "plot points": I personally believe that in general terms the gist was that "without using Rosé, Black was a little above SS3 Goku". In the manga he gets above SS3 Goku with his Super Saiyan 1/2. In the anime the idea of him using Super Saiyan was scrapped, but the strength of Black was kept the same. Vegeta as a SS2 himself is somewhat above SS3 Goku -- probably borrowing from BOG, but I'd say there's a chance his SS2 worked similarly to Trunks'.[/spoiler]

[Desassina]

You may have just essayed for nothing (first paragraph). There's no need to introduce doubt to a subject by telling people that they "read into things a bit too much" when I have simply read them and used numbers for convenience. Whis gave us a figure and explained that the transformation itself wasted energy when SSJG replenished them to use the former at full power. It was made to be a huge deal by letting SSJB have its own power mastered by use of SSJG or its aura inside the body. It's not just the overall energy getting sapped in whatever form. 10% is only a convenient number to explain things when the anime used Kaioken x10 to achieve the equivalent of it being full. My only mistake was having used that amount in Resurrection of F, I guess, but we knew that Freeza went up against a SSJB with stamina issues. I mean, I accept having ideas taken down, but on the basis that someone is overthinking? You don't know me, and you're picking at a computer screen at best, so let's not force the others into the level of scrutiny that is required to debate here. I may as well begin to do this:

Vegeta SSJB = [1, 10%], because he's anything lower than it.

[lord turbo]

I haven't see that part in Hajime no Ippo, so I can't comment on that, does he do it without the need of sight?
Because to me it seems like Goku's body would still avoid damage even without the use of his vision, especially when you take into consideration what Whis was saying about always avoiding danger. it makes it sound as if he would still avoid a shot it his eyes couldn't keep up with the movements.

Yes, Takamura is unconscious and his body is moving by itself without him even thinking, the characters explain that Takamura's body is reacting on its all and going through all the training and practice he done before while successfully evading and crushing Hawk at the same time. Takamura literally does not gain consciousness until after Hawk is lying on the floor and wonders what happens while he was asleep. If that isn't like the concept of Mushin then I don't know what else.

It's seems a little different than Mushin, as people believe Mushin to be the brain functioning at its best 'but without conscious thought, and drilling techniques is also important for Mushin. Plus take the eyes out of it and Mushin is severely hampered and would almost always rely on touch, and sound which is far to inefficient. Goku also wasn't in a zen like state, he was still aware, and surprised by what his body was doing, it was actually like his body had its own brain.

Obviously real life application and fictional application of Mushin would be different, that goes without saying. I was just pointing out the concept is about the same, just exaggerated in fictional series for that extra flash.

Sorry if this reply is a bit untidy, but I typed out a version before but there was a glitch and it was wiped.

Its all good, my previous reply was typed on a phone so excuse the typos.

[LowRyder2005]

You may have just essayed for nothing (first paragraph). There's no need to introduce doubt to a subject by telling people that they "read into things a bit too much" when I have simply read them and used numbers for convenience. Whis gave us a figure and explained that the transformation itself wasted energy when SSJG replenished them to use the former at full power. It was made to be a huge deal by letting SSJB have its own power mastered by use of SSJG or its aura inside the body. It's not just the overall energy getting sapped in whatever form. 10% is only a convenient number to explain things when the anime used Kaioken x10 to achieve the equivalent of it being full. My only mistake was having used that amount in Resurrection of F, I guess, but we knew that Freeza went up against a SSJB with stamina issues. I mean, I accept having ideas taken down, but on the basis that someone is overthinking? You don't know me, and you're picking at a computer screen at best, so let's not force the others into the level of scrutiny that is required to debate here. I may as well begin to do this:

Vegeta SSJB = [1, 10%], because he's anything lower than it.

I candidly don't understand what part of "you may be overthinking this" reads as even remotely offensive (admitting that being offended is supposed to be the undertone of your post, that is). Nevertheless, there was a "to me" in my phrasing that ended up lost in the cross-editing.

With that being said, Whis' figure of speech is that Vegeta "can't even use 10% of his power" and not a "he was using [something very close to] 10% of his power"; so, again, while using figures closer to 10% would make the statement relatively more accurate, it simply means Vegeta wasn't using that much power at all.
Most importantly, the figure by itself is used to reference chiefly the reason why Super Saiyan God is outperforming Super Saiyan Blue despite the former being an inferior form; there's technically no word about Super Saiyan Goku being above the 10% of Blue Vegeta, and it's something that requires added extrapolation. It could be a case of Hit momentarily sandbagging (much like we were lead to conclude it happened in the anime, with base Goku momentarily "outperforming" Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta; with that mileage even the base Goku seen in the manga does better than Blue Vegeta, scratching Hit and surprising him while the transformed Vegeta can't even do as much) or reverting to a more "warming up" phase until Goku really bothered showing his hand, especially given how in chapter 12 he's "encouraging him to transform" and the banter about how Goku will eventually figure out the workings of his Time Skip without transforming to save stamina.

By the way, while Beerus does imply that Super Saiyan Goku possesses more an edge in raw strength against Hit during their fight, Whis later goes one to remark that Goku overcame the "power gap" between him and Hit - and more notably that Goku surpassed Hit - thanks to using God (this is in page 19, right a handful of panels before the talk of Vegeta's 10%); of course, if Goku was able to "surpass Hit" because of God, it would mean that before using God he had to be behind him. So, again, maybe there could be a difference between the Hit who fights Goku and the Hit who fights the <10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

[lord turbo]

The manga is more than slightly confusing at times, but it looks like you might be lead to read a little too much into the figures of speech. Whis saying Vegeta lost "over 90% of his power" is just there to remind us Vegeta was almost completely depleted of energy; besides, Vegeta losing "99,9%" of his power would hold strikingly different numerical connotations than a simple 90,1%. Just to show how ambiguous the wording actually is.

Well, if you want to be fair Whis could have easily said Vegeta around 1% or less than his full power which would put SSJ Goku comfortably above that same leve and it would still be the same narrative.

I still deem pretty significant that Vegeta, much later (after sensing Trunks and being relatively impressed) just opts to give a dry comment about Black being above his son after he prologendly fights the transformed Black. You'd think that if Black was an amazing 5,000 times above that amount the manga would portray things differently for a plethora of reason.

To be fair, Toriyama has never made the characters talk like say out-of-universe fans of the series like us. A 10x, 20, or even 100x fold increase would just get a simple "Whoa, you're very strong/incredible ki/ridiculous absurd/amazing ki/etc. Basically broad/general/unspecific terms that give no reference to any percentage or factor. We rarely, I repeat rarely get phrase that describes specific multiplies like Zamasu commenting that SSJ2 Goku is several/many tens/dozens of times stronger than his base form. Usually the characters just mention "He's gotten considerably/much/way/a lot stronger" and leave it at that.

Furthermore, given the premises of the series and what we've grown accustomed with, the idea that with the same amount of training Vegeta became hundreds of times stronger than Goku sounds, to be honest, like a near impossibility; I doubt even a "storytelling 101" author would insert it in so haphazardly. Less severe gaps were always treated as relatively crucial plot points, but Vegeta becomes thousands of times stronger off screen?

Think of this, during the exhibition match SSJ Gohan was more less shown on par with Basil before the poison took effect and started affecting Gohan's performance. Base Goku fights comfortably well against Bergamo, the strongest brother of the trio so bare minimum base Goku is significantly stronger than SSJ Gohan. The same base Goku fights a stronger improved Mr. Buu and keep ups just fine testing him, in fact, he mentions Mr. Buu can't ring him out with this level and tactics as he casually dismisses all his attacks to the point Mr. Buu needs to use strategy to catch Goku off guard and ring him out. So base Goku is at worst comparable to an improved fit Mr. Buu. Keep in mind Mr. Buu during the Buu Saga was between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku, his improved form is probably near SSJ3 tier so base Goku should be comfortably stronger way stronger than SSJ2 Gohan or Piccolo.

After Gohan's training with Piccolo his new and improved base form appears on par with base Goku, this is the same base Goku that stopped Piccolo's super duper long ultra charged Ki wave with his barehands. Keep in mind amplified ki attacks can become several times stronger than the user's max as evident by Piccolo at 408 and his charged DBC (Demonic Beam Cannon) at 1330 (over 3-fold increase). So base Goku being near his old SSJ3 state during the Buu saga seems plausible. This also means base Gohan got over 100 times stronger (Kuririn did earlier suggest to Gohan lets get over hundreds times stronger so I guess Gohan really took it to heart, lol). I mean absurd increases in a short amount of time is not unprecedented in Dragon Ball. Piccolo during the Saiyan Saga was measured at 1220, skip to his off-screen 5 day training on Namek and Nail mentions if he came joined with Kami he might have been strong enough to beat first form Freeza (Keep in mind Freeza himself literally tells Nail the power difference between himself and Nail to which Nail experiences this first hand) which would put fused Piccolo around 530,00.

But wait, there's more, Nail also heard from the fat elder Namek that splitting apart halved his full power so half of 530,000 would be 265,000 for current Piccolo, that means Piccolo got over 200x stronger in five days by what we can see in the illustrations of the Z-Senshi's training consist of Piccolo mediating in mid air and nothing else. If Piccolo can do that, I don't see why Gohan can't mediate and pull some Bleach style BS out his ass because he visualized and realized his hidden/latent power or whatever, its not like Toriyama's is actually trying with these absurd increases.

[BlueVegerot]

What is the lowest form Current Vegito could use to defeat the likes of True Golden Freeza and Toppo?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

What is the lowest form Current Vegito could use to defeat the likes of True Golden Freeza and Toppo?

Given how massive of a boost the Potara Fusion gives to Goku and Vegeta, I'm inclined to believe that ordinary SS, maybe SS2 at most, would do the job. Of course, that's me operating under the assumption that Goku and Vegeta are still just as strong as Final Form Freeza in their base forms, and that this level rests somewhere at the strength of some form of Majin Buu.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, if you want to be fair Whis could have easily said Vegeta around 1% or less than his full power which would put SSJ Goku comfortably above that same leve and it would still be the same narrative.

It happens to be exactly my same point in that the figure of speech used is inconclusive. If we want to go even more in detail, Vegeta's general condition of being "unable to use even his 10% in the fight (if he wanted to?)" doesn't even clarify if he actually was outputting it all at once or not; neither if this particulary inability was something Whis deduced or outright noticed through means of direct observation, in fact, with Beerus being more in disbelief than simply clueless. Whis could have also seen Vegeta going at about 1% and realizing - or perhaps even already knowing - he couldn't get much better than that, in other words.

Think of this, during the exhibition match SSJ Gohan was more less shown on par with Basil before the poison took effect and started affecting Gohan's performance. Base Goku fights comfortably well against Bergamo, the strongest brother of the trio so bare minimum base Goku is significantly stronger than SSJ Gohan. The same base Goku fights a stronger improved Mr. Buu and keep ups just fine testing him, in fact, he mentions Mr. Buu can't ring him out with this level and tactics as he casually dismisses all his attacks to the point Mr. Buu needs to use strategy to catch Goku off guard and ring him out. So base Goku is at worst comparable to an improved fit Mr. Buu. Keep in mind Mr. Buu during the Buu Saga was between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku, his improved form is probably near SSJ3 tier so base Goku should be comfortably stronger way stronger than SSJ2 Gohan or Piccolo.

After Gohan's training with Piccolo his new and improved base form appears on par with base Goku, this is the same base Goku that stopped Piccolo's super duper long ultra charged Ki wave with his barehands. Keep in mind amplified ki attacks can become several times stronger than the user's max as evident by Piccolo at 408 and his charged DBC (Demonic Beam Cannon) at 1330 (over 3-fold increase). So base Goku being near his old SSJ3 state during the Buu saga seems plausible. This also means base Gohan got over 100 times stronger (Kuririn did earlier suggest to Gohan lets get over hundreds times stronger so I guess Gohan really took it to heart, lol). I mean absurd increases in a short amount of time is not unprecedented in Dragon Ball. Piccolo during the Saiyan Saga was measured at 1220, skip to his off-screen 5 day training on Namek and Nail mentions if he came joined with Kami he might have been strong enough to beat first form Freeza (Keep in mind Freeza himself literally tells Nail the power difference between himself and Nail to which Nail experiences this first hand) which would put fused Piccolo around 530,00.

But wait, there's more, Nail also heard from the fat elder Namek that splitting apart halved his full power so half of 530,000 would be 265,000 for current Piccolo, that means Piccolo got over 200x stronger in five days by what we can see in the illustrations of the Z-Senshi's training consist of Piccolo mediating in mid air and nothing else. If Piccolo can do that, I don't see why Gohan can't mediate and pull some Bleach style BS out his ass because he visualized and realized his hidden/latent power or whatever, its not like Toriyama's is actually trying with these absurd increases.

Leaving aside your examples and intepretations of the fights in Super, given that I find myself to heavily disagree with all of your inferences (notwithstanding some of which I think are just plain narrative dissonances: i.e. Lavenda being even remotely close to Super Saiyan Gohan), I never stated to have problems with the power creep. We're still talking about an increase which would put Vegeta thousands of times over Goku (which is first and foremost an almost unprecedented increase in the entirity of the series, with no intended plot device enabling him to make such a jump, already separating it from stuff like Piccolo's training history) when nothing else is stated/reported but the fact that some months passed between their last training together, and with their Blue form otherwise evenly matched; if it's not narrative-breaking or abysmal writing to you I frankly don't know if my words would ever convince you otherwise (all the better for your enjoyment), but especially considering that I find some much simpler in-universe rationale available that addresses this issue, I'm not really going to buy into the hypothesis.

What is the lowest form Current Vegito could use to defeat the likes of True Golden Freeza and Toppo?

If he followed the old scaling, yeah, probably Super Saiyan. If he doesn't follow those old rules, my completely unofficial numbers tell me he would still defeat them handily with Super Saiyan 3.

[ZombieVito]

Speaking of the manga.

Goku Black is a mess there. His Suepr Saiyan form is stronger than Blue Vegeta. He then transforms to Rose and should be dozens if not hundreds of times stronger than Vegeta but he ins't since all that it takes for the latter to surpass him is half a day in the RoSaT.

[LowRyder2005]

Speaking of the manga.

Goku Black is a mess there. His Suepr Saiyan form is stronger than Blue Vegeta. He then transforms to Rose and should be dozens if not hundreds of times stronger than Vegeta but he ins't since all that it takes for the latter to surpass him is half a day in the RoSaT.

I think that it's supposed to be slowly evolving into his Rosé (that or it was a matter of Vegeta's stamina dropping while Black's strength was rising, there's this fairly implicit, and fairly convoluted theme at play whenever the unmastered Blue is on-panel).

Regardless, yes, there's obviously a mess purely from a scaling standpoint because for all the exposition to be found in the manga stuff like this would really need to be shown, some way, in unambiguous terms.

[Bullza]

He also never seemed to lose strength at a rapid pace like how Goku and Vegeta are supposed to even though Rose should be an equivalent form of Blue.

[Shlugo]

Rose is equivalent to Blue... but Base Black was stronger than that SSJ2 Trunks who was equal to SSJ3 Goku.

Man the powerscalling of that arc breaks at the seams.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I've come to the conclusion that US arc Goku & Future Trunks post Vegeta training have achieved SS2 Full Power like Vegeta did back in BoG, based on SS2 Trunks' fight with SSR Black & SS2 Goku's fight with U. Gohan, and the fact that he has completely abandoned SS3 now. Also, at least in the anime, Goku & Vegeta can use the SSG power in their base forms, based on their fights with Ribrianne. My guess is that Goku went base -> SS -> SS2 -> SSG -> base with God power -> SSB against Jiren. I'm not sure if all these hold true for the manga though, at least not yet.

I do admit that it was strange that he depowered to base to turn Blue. Even weirder is that he didn't do this in episode 104 when he turned God.

Goku using Quake of Fury against Gohan isn't actually a bad idea.

It appears to me that Goku & (Copy) Vegeta use their base with God power state when he holds back against powerful opponents (like SS3 Gotenks, Slim Boo, and Ribrianne), but when he wants to go all out he goes SSG. So, instead of going SSG and using 5% or 60% of its power, he does that while in his base form with God power.

As for SS2, Ultimate Gohan was originally several times stronger than SS3 Goku, and now he was even stronger than he was. It doesn't make sense for Goku to be giving him trouble in his SS2 form, but if Goku has made his SS2 form stronger than Ultimate Gohan originally was, like SS2 Vegeta surpassed Ultimate Gohan in BoG, it makes much more sense since we see how they both improved.

How would people classify SSRage?

1) Is it an evolution of SS2 like SS3 is?

2) Is it an evolution of SS1 Grade 3?

More like SS3. SS Grades 2 & 3 don't draw out dormant powers, they use the SS power pump the muscles, amplifying the user's power. SS2 & SS3 draw out more dormant powers than SS does. SSRage seems to be drawing SSB dormant powers, but not all of them. It also seems to drain at least more stamina than SS2 does, since after going all out & beating SSR Black (or so he thought), Trunks powered down to SS2 in order to fight Future Zamasu.

Speaking of the manga.

Goku Black is a mess there. His Suepr Saiyan form is stronger than Blue Vegeta. He then transforms to Rose and should be dozens if not hundreds of times stronger than Vegeta but he ins't since all that it takes for the latter to surpass him is half a day in the RoSaT.

Before FnF & SSB, Toriyama said that after his fight with Beerus, Goku would focus training on his base & SS forms to master them, and then when FnF came out, SSB was treated as Goku's & Vegeta's new upgraded SS form. Goku's SS form had a really small & insignificant multiplier in BoG when he absorbed the power of SSG, so seeing Black's evolution in the manga to SSR, it seems that SSB/R is achieved by absorbing the power of SSG, then training in SS form to slowly increase the multiplier, and when it finally reaches its limit, it changes into Blue/Rose.

[lord turbo]

It happens to be exactly my same point in that the figure of speech used is inconclusive. If we want to go even more in detail, Vegeta's general condition of being "unable to use even his 10% in the fight (if he wanted to?)" doesn't even clarify if he actually was outputting it all at once or not; neither if this particulary inability was something Whis deduced or outright noticed through means of direct observation, in fact, with Beerus being more in disbelief than simply clueless. Whis could have also seen Vegeta going at about 1% and realizing - or perhaps even already knowing - he couldn't get much better than that, in other words.

Well, the entire point of whis' statement was to explain why exactly Vegeta got his ass handed to him by Hit in the first place to Beerus which serves as a reference point for the audience, we don't know how much lower Vegeta was other than somewhere below 10% his full power, if it was anymore it would have been worded differently and specificed as such, to say otherwise would just be baseless speculation.

Leaving aside your examples and intepretations of the fights in Super, given that I find myself to heavily disagree with all of your inferences (notwithstanding some of which I think are just plain narrative dissonances: i.e. Lavenda being even remotely close to Super Saiyan Gohan), I never stated to have problems with the power creep. We're still talking about an increase which would put Vegeta thousands of times over Goku (which is first and foremost an almost unprecedented increase in the entirity of the series, with no intended plot device enabling him to make such a jump, already separating it from stuff like Piccolo's training history) when nothing else is stated/reported but the fact that some months passed between their last training together, and with their Blue form otherwise evenly matched; if it's not narrative-breaking or abysmal writing to you I frankly don't know if my words would ever convince you otherwise (all the better for your enjoyment), but especially considering that I find some much simpler in-universe rationale available that addresses this issue, I'm not really going to buy into the hypothesis.

I have no idea what series you're watching since DBS showed Gohan no stronger than Lavenda and struggling to overpower and beat him as a SSJ before the poison kicked in and started affecting his performance. The second part about Vegeta's increases is your head-canon for the simple fact we don't know what the SSJ increases/multipliers actually are in the show or if they are even remotely the same across the board for everyone else, especially when the series flips flops on the boost SSJ forms from being small/slight to several tens of times greater than base. My personal feelings about if I find the writing from DBS to be shit or narrative breaking is irrelevant to the writers of DBS.