Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supercat]

I feel sorry for you guys... Trying to make sense out of the dragonball power scale. Hint, it doesn't exist anymore characters are made stronger and weaker nonsensically to fit the story. Goku will be significantly weaker than beerus regardless of his new power ups because that's the way it's wanted by the author.... Until an arc comes where goku is supposed to surpass him and I'm sure it will not be through a new form it will just be through a line of "Goku you've been getting a lot stronger since training with whis, I bet you could even challenge beerus (even though you did already)!

The author doesn't care (at least about the logic of his own universe anymore) why should you.

It's no different than GT to me, so I give it the same treatment of "They really didn't care and just did whatever they wanted, so why should I bother trying to figure out what they didn't?"

What's the point of even having in-universe discussions? Why not just nonchalantly resort to such obvious, and not to mention boring conclusions? And in any case, I don't see that stopping you from participating in other inconsistency-filled topics.

Also on another note, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of fans are fully aware of the writers "not caring" or "forgetting" without you pointing it out to them.

[DragonHermit]

I just can't see Super Saiyan Blue boosting their power from a 6 to a 7. It's such a pitiful boost for a form.

I'd say it at least doubled their power.

Super Saiyan God is a form obtained through a ritual with 6 other Super Saiyans. Super Saiyan Blue is an actual solo transformation. It's not really a different "grade".

It's a bit like ASSJ/FPSSJ and SSJ. SSJ is 50x multiplier, SSJ2 is 100x. ASSJ would fall somewhere in between.

[dbzfan7]

I feel sorry for you guys... Trying to make sense out of the dragonball power scale. Hint, it doesn't exist anymore characters are made stronger and weaker nonsensically to fit the story. Goku will be significantly weaker than beerus regardless of his new power ups because that's the way it's wanted by the author.... Until an arc comes where goku is supposed to surpass him and I'm sure it will not be through a new form it will just be through a line of "Goku you've been getting a lot stronger since training with whis, I bet you could even challenge beerus (even though you did already)!

The author doesn't care (at least about the logic of his own universe anymore) why should you.

It's no different than GT to me, so I give it the same treatment of "They really didn't care and just did whatever they wanted, so why should I bother trying to figure out what they didn't?"

What's the point of even having in-universe discussions? Why not just nonchalantly resort to such obvious, and not to mention boring conclusions? And in any case, I don't see that stopping you from participating in other inconsistency-filled topics.

I don't see the problem. People did the same thing to GT too. More often then not GT logic became a thing to wave off everything. So I start using Super Logic to wave off the stupidity it has. Except people go "GT NON CANON WHO CARES" so it doesn't matter. Super according to some is or isn't canon, whatever, and so it doesn't get the same waving. Same with Episode of Bardock Logic, and so on.

I don't consider it a boring conclusion as I'm not pretending to make up crap that was more likely never thought up or a concern when the series was made. I can do that from any series to rationalize anything, but really I'm just making up stuff. It's better to speculate on story stuff, than make believe power levels.

[supercat]

It's no different than GT to me, so I give it the same treatment of "They really didn't care and just did whatever they wanted, so why should I bother trying to figure out what they didn't?"

What's the point of even having in-universe discussions? Why not just nonchalantly resort to such obvious, and not to mention boring conclusions? And in any case, I don't see that stopping you from participating in other inconsistency-filled topics.

I don't see the problem. People did the same thing to GT too. More often then not GT logic became a thing to wave off everything. So I start using Super Logic to wave off the stupidity it has. Except people go "GT NON CANON WHO CARES" so it doesn't matter. Super according to some is or isn't canon, whatever, and so it doesn't get the same waving. Same with Episode of Bardock Logic, and so on.

I don't consider it a boring conclusion as I'm not pretending to make up crap that was more likely never thought up or a concern when the series was made. I can do that from any series to rationalize anything, but really I'm just making up stuff. It's better to speculate on story stuff, than make believe power levels.

In-universe discussions are expected to have an ample amount of speculations, and such discussions can pertain to any topic. Sure a handful of those discussions are likely going to be story-based, but adding in other attributes that revolve around the overall plot makes things that much more interesting. After all, isn't that the whole point of a Power Level thread? To formulate speculations and spark up discussions pertaining to the topic?

Power levels, being a major point of attraction for some is one aspect of the series that is often heavily discussed. Making stuff up is irrelevant here, as there's no real harm in thinking beyond the default answer where "fighter a was portrayed to be stronger than fighter b so enough said." I find that this is especially true when a major plot hole emerges.

Personally, I have no real interest in calculating numbers; that said, I do like to keep up with a general power scale, as coherence adds that much more credibility in my opinion.

[Sandubadear]

I agree that Super is not making any sense about its power levels compared to the previous series, so in my head I just try to forget all about them and only go with what's stated/done within Super.

• Shisami and Tagoma being Zarbon-tier
• Kuririn considering Shisami a strong opponent
• Piccolo being on par with Shisami (movie-only)
• Tagoma training and surpassing the Ginyu Force
• Ginyu changing bodies and getting even stronger
• Gohan being stronger than Piccolo
• Gohan being equal to Ginyu, and then trashing him as Super Saiyan

Considering the statements literally (and there's no reason to not believe them), they all make sense inside of Super only. There are only inconsistencies if you compare it to DBZ.

[dbzfan7]

I don't see the problem. People did the same thing to GT too. More often then not GT logic became a thing to wave off everything. So I start using Super Logic to wave off the stupidity it has. Except people go "GT NON CANON WHO CARES" so it doesn't matter. Super according to some is or isn't canon, whatever, and so it doesn't get the same waving. Same with Episode of Bardock Logic, and so on.

I don't consider it a boring conclusion as I'm not pretending to make up crap that was more likely never thought up or a concern when the series was made. I can do that from any series to rationalize anything, but really I'm just making up stuff. It's better to speculate on story stuff, than make believe power levels.

In-universe discussions are expected to have an ample amount of speculations, and such discussions can pertain to any topic. Sure a handful of those discussions are likely going to be story-based, but adding in other attributes that revolve around the overall plot makes things that much more interesting. After all, isn't that the whole point of a Power Level thread? To formulate speculations and spark up discussions pertaining to the topic?

Power levels, being a major point of attraction for some is one aspect of the series that is often heavily discussed. Making stuff up is irrelevant here, as there's no real harm in thinking beyond the default answer where "fighter a was portrayed to be stronger than fighter b so enough said." I find that this is especially true when a major plot hole emerges.

Personally, I have no real interest in calculating numbers; that said, I do like to keep up with a general power scale, as coherence adds that much more credibility in my opinion.

This isn't the in-universe thread. This is the Super thread. So anything goes. I take a more general answer since the in-universe answer is a bunch of half baked ideas that are gonna be contradicted or not make sense down the road.

Oh I know, I was a pretty big in-universe kind of person, til just like with GT, they really started to show how much they don't give a crap. I get all the power level/versus discussions. Now I'd say versus is really the only one that can be done since it doesn't include trying to make sense of everything, but taking at face value how strong everyone is, or could be.

I agree that Super is not making any sense about its power levels compared to the previous series, so in my head I just try to forget all about them and only go with what's stated/done within Super.

• Shisami and Tagoma being Zarbon-tier
• Kuririn considering Shisami a strong opponent
• Piccolo being on par with Shisami (movie-only)
• Tagoma training and surpassing the Ginyu Force
• Ginyu changing bodies and getting even stronger
• Gohan being stronger than Piccolo
• Gohan being equal to Ginyu, and then trashing him as Super Saiyan

Considering the statements literally (and there's no reason to not believe them), they all make sense inside of Super only. There are only inconsistencies if you compare it to DBZ.

Pretty much this. The best way to follow these power levels, is to forget every preconception we have ever had. That way it doesn't get too dumb. Not to say the transition of DB-Z didn't have some head turners, but it wasn't to this degree. It's really best to just look at Super individually, and just have it's levels based on itself. Just like how it is when it comes to GT power levels.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan being equal to Ginyu, and then trashing him as Super Saiyan

Watch the fight again.

[Hugo Boss]

So despite nothing contradicting Shisami being worlds above the Ginyu Force, and there being a few notable feats (Shisami vs Gohan and Piccolo) that point towards him receiving a major power boost, he still has to be weaker than the Ginyus... Strange isn't it?

Then what the fuck does that make Piccolo and Base Gohan? Zarbon-tier? Dodoria-tier? This is probably one of the most ridiculous discussions I've participated in.

You may think this is ridiculous, but, as other users have pointed above, this is basic interpretation of the context presented in Dragon Ball Super. Sorbet thought Shisami was the strongest warrior of Freeza's army. Tagoma replaces Shisami. Sorbet checks Tagoma's powerlevel and says he surpassed Ginyu Force. Tagoma badmouths the former squad and says he is the strongest warrior of Freeza's army (a.k.a. stronger than Shisami). Even if you believe Shisami was already stronger than Ginyu Force, the correct sentence would be "Tagoma has surpassed Shisami" or "Tagoma has surpassed Ginyu Force... No... He surpassed even Shisami". Unless you ignore the lack of sense in just introducing "Tagoma has surpassed Ginyu Force" there, then you could go by Shisami was said to be the strongest before Tagoma.

By the way, the ki surpassing Ginyu Force Gohan feels from Tagoma makes Gohan believe Tagoma is at least on par with him, so Base Gohan is probably stronger than Ginyu Force too.

[supercat]

So despite nothing contradicting Shisami being worlds above the Ginyu Force, and there being a few notable feats (Shisami vs Gohan and Piccolo) that point towards him receiving a major power boost, he still has to be weaker than the Ginyus... Strange isn't it?

Then what the fuck does that make Piccolo and Base Gohan? Zarbon-tier? Dodoria-tier? This is probably one of the most ridiculous discussions I've participated in.

You may think this is ridiculous, but, as other users have pointed above, this is basic interpretation of the context presented in Dragon Ball Super. Sorbet thought Shisami was the strongest warrior of Freeza's army. Tagoma replaces Shisami. Sorbet checks Tagoma's powerlevel and says he surpassed Ginyu Force. Tagoma badmouths the former squad and says he is the strongest warrior of Freeza's army (a.k.a. stronger than Shisami). Even if you believe Shisami was already stronger than Ginyu Force, the correct sentence would be "Tagoma has surpassed Shisami" or "Tagoma has surpassed Ginyu Force... No... He surpassed even Shisami". Unless you ignore the lack of sense in just introducing "Tagoma has surpassed Ginyu Force" there, then you could go by Shisami was said to be the strongest before Tagoma.

By the way, the ki surpassing Ginyu Force Gohan feels from Tagoma makes Gohan believe Tagoma is at least on par with him, so Base Gohan is probably stronger than Ginyu Force too.

I feel like you're completely ignoring all the feats pertaining to this particular power scale, and simply going off of one vague line that could be deciphered in so many different ways. Again, do you think a useless pile of trash like Dodoria could actually deflect Gohan's blasts and/or tangle with a Cell Jr-tier fighter? Hmm I really don't know...

Are you like a major fan of Zarbon and Dodoria or something? Honestly, I've never seen anyone go above and beyond to downplay Base Gohan and Piccolo to the extent that you do.

Whether the writers neglected power levels or not is completely irrelevant here, as such an outcome doesn't automatically subject Gohan and Piccolo to a major power loss with no apparent cause. I guess Piccolo's training must be completely useless and counter productive since he went from being a few notches below Cell Jr. to the same crap level as two fighters who could arguably be deemed as the worst fighters in the series.

Both Dodoria and Zarbon are COMPLETE jokes. With a mere few thousand difference in power, they both got their faces shoved to the pavement by Vegeta... Oh but wait! Let's not be so hasty, they are after all still the benchmark...

[Hugo Boss]

I really don't have any interest in defending these sorts of ideas or either convincing others. My only concern is that you are actually understanding what I'm saying.

If you don't believe me, you can check some of the lines I mentioned on Herms' thread or watch Dragon Ball Super by your own.

As a matter of fact, I'm a fan of Gohan. Good night!

[supercat]

I really don't have any interest in defending these sorts of ideas or either convincing others. My only concern is that you are actually understanding what I'm saying.

If you don't believe me, you can check some of the lines I mentioned on Herms' thread or watch Dragon Ball Super by your own.

As a matter of fact, I'm a fan of Gohan. Good night!

Unless there was anything within the context that pertained to specific power levels, I have no reason to believe that the gap is as trivial as some imply.

Meaning, Tagoma doesn't need to be marginally above Ginyu to elicit a remark from Sorbet; whether he was a few thousand above him or few billion above him is not an important variable. Therefore, using that line to support the speculation that Tagoma barely surpassed Ginyu and Shisami was still treading around Zarbon-tier lacks validity in my opinion. Why wasn't Frieza leveraged as a benchmark you may ask? Well, do you really think Sorbet would dare drop his boss' name so casually?

Considering how both Shisami and Tagoma had some pretty stellar feats backing them up, and also considering the fact that there was really nothing that contradicted their impressive performance, I'd say it's quite plausible that Tagoma reached Super Perfect Cell-tier while Tagoma / Ginyu probably gained the power to trump one of the weaker forms of Buu. As for Shisami, if his performance against Piccolo and Base Gohan is anything to go by, I'd say a few notches below Cell Jr. is an appropriate placement for him.

I'm not sure how many different ways I could word this, but once again, nothing contradicts Shisami's performance against Piccolo and Gohan; Sorbet failing to mention him proves nothing and in my opinion, does not support that he is Zarbon-tier.

[ROCKYIII]

So tagoma is underneath prime gohan level... Maybe around ssj3 goku level? Facepalm I can't believe I'm saying this stuff... It's so stupid -_-

[Hugo Boss]

Therefore, using that line to support the speculation that Tagoma barely surpassed Ginyu and Shisami was still treading around Zarbon-tier lacks validity in my opinion. Why wasn't Freeza leveraged as a benchmark you may ask? Well, do you really think Sorbet would dare drop his boss' name so casually?

Considering we are in the DBS's thread, Tagoma surpassing Ginyu Force and Shisami is a fact. Tagoma surpassing Freeza is speculation. Shisami being stronger than Ginyu Force is speculation. Shisami being as strong as Zarbon is speculation. I hope this is easy to understand.

[supercat]

Therefore, using that line to support the speculation that Tagoma barely surpassed Ginyu and Shisami was still treading around Zarbon-tier lacks validity in my opinion. Why wasn't Freeza leveraged as a benchmark you may ask? Well, do you really think Sorbet would dare drop his boss' name so casually?

Considering we are in the DBS's thread, Tagoma surpassing Ginyu Force and Shisami is a fact. Tagoma surpassing Freeza is speculation. Shisami being stronger than Ginyu Force is speculation. Shisami being as strong as Zarbon is speculation. I hope this is easy to understand.

And when did I ever say that Tagoma didn't surpass the Ginyu Force or Shisami..? Wasn't I the one who kept indicating that he likely reached a level that was worlds above them?

Shisami being stronger than the Ginyu Force and Zarbon is a speculation.... hmmm yeah, that's a REAL tough one. On one end of the spectrum we have a pair of incompetent fodders who faced what could arguably be deemed as some of the most humiliating defeats in the series (Zarbon and Dodoria), not to mention the latter was one-shotted by Saiyan arc Vegeta. Don't you think if Shisami was really rocking the same power level as those losers he would have been incinerated by one of Gohan's blasts instead of leisurely smacking them away? Is there really even a point in me elaborating any further?

Here's the thing, whether the writers really forgot or didn't care enough to appropriately factor in previously established power levels is completely irrelevant here, as nothing I could think of contradicts both Tagoma and Shisami reaching at least MSSJ-tier (on the low end). That line that you keep referring to apparently didn't say shit about power levels, or by how much Tagoma surpassed the Ginyu Force, so it really isn't applicable here.

[Hugo Boss]

In fact, we can elaborate on Shisami's strength. He was said to be the strongest warrior on Freeza's Army, but his grip didn't faze Gohan at all, deflecting Gohan's blasts was the best Shisami could do. Diferently from the movie and following FnF's original script, Tagoma is the only one of the duo said to be on par with Zarbon and Dodoria. Claiming Shisami the strongest likely means he was perhaps stronger than Tagoma or even Zarbon and Dodoria themselves (alias they were killed by Namek Arc Vegeta).

Shisami and Tagoma being equal to Super Saiyans is contradicted by Gohan winning against Ginyu, who surpassed Tagoma, and by Gohan not using Super Saiyan to fight Shisami in this version, unlike in the movie.

Using Gohan as benchmark won't help in this discussion, because, as untrained as he is, his power can be much lower than when he fought Boo or Beerus. Using Piccolo won't help either, because, even if he isn't supposed to be weaker than when he fought Cell, Freeza is implied to be stronger than Piccolo. Apart from Goku and Vegeta, Gohan and Majin Boo are one of the few cited people that could stop Freeza, Piccolo isn't cited to be one of them.

[supercat]

In fact, we can elaborate on Shisami's strength. He was said to be the strongest warrior on Freeza's Army, but his grip didn't faze Gohan at all, deflecting Gohan's blasts was the best Shisami could do. Diferently from the movie and following FnF's original script, Tagoma is the only one of the duo said to be on par with Zarbon and Dodoria. Claiming Shisami the strongest likely means he was perhaps stronger than Tagoma or even Zarbon and Dodoria themselves (alias they were killed by Namek Arc Vegeta).

Shisami and Tagoma being equal to Super Saiyans is contradicted by Gohan winning against Ginyu, who surpassed Tagoma, and by Gohan not using Super Saiyan to fight Shisami in this version, unlike in the movie.

Using Gohan as benchmark won't help in this discussion, because, as untrained as he is, his power can be much lower than when he fought Boo or Beerus. Using Piccolo won't help either, because, even if he isn't supposed to be weaker than when he fought Cell, Freeza is implied to be stronger than Piccolo. Apart from Goku and Vegeta, Gohan and Majin Boo are one of the few cited people that could stop Freeza, Piccolo isn't cited to be one of them.

"Even Zarbon and Dodoria themselves." You make it seem like we're talking about a duo of prodigies here, when in actuality they're nothing more than a pair of irrelevant losers who were deemed useless several arcs ago. So I'm going to ask you again, do you really think Zarbon or his equally incompetent buddy Dodoria could deflect Gohan's blasts this far into the series? Regardless of if Gohan was injured by the grip or not, Shisami was still apparently quick enough to grab him.

And how do you know how powerful Gohan was? Apparently his base form was stronger than Piccolo, who was likely only a few notches below Cell Jr. years ago.

So have you forgotten about the well known power scale of Piccolo (after merging with Kami) = 17 > 18 > Trunks >> Frieza? Or are you just choosing to dismiss it for the sake of proving a point?

[Tsufuru]

so piccolo in super is ginyu force level?

yh, i wouldnt take that serios.
you cant say we should ignore the power level's in dbz when they compared them to dodoria and zarbon in super.

correct me if I'm wrong, so shisami and tagoma where first compared to dodoria and zarbon.
gohan in base was about to stomp shisami.
he kept talking as if its nothig while bear hugged.

tagoma surpassed the ginyu force and got a lot stronger but weaker than ssj gohan

in the movie piccolo seemed to struggle against shisami.
who is dodoria or zarbon level.

either piccolo was not serios at all or its simply bullshit.
becouse making piccolo who was stated to still train by toriyama iirc this much weaker for no reason , shits over all of his progression from the namek saga till buu saga yet they use zarbon and dodoria from dbz.

i dont know but this reeks bullshit.
so only piccolo got weaker for no reason?(gohan is a diffrent case)

[buutenks]

Tagoma was stated to be stronger than ginyu while he was suppressed.Trunks was able to suppress his BP to 5,goku to 5 k i dont see why tagoma couldnt do the same when he learned how to control his BP and keep it a lower BP.

After he lands,after sorbet says he surpassed ginyu,tagoma powers up and everybody goes like wtf,hes super strong,even trunks and goten sense his energy and say wow so strong.

Then,once ginyu took over,he simply uses tagoma full power,since even after he powered up he was still hold back allot of his power.

So piccolo not being able to do much to tagoma doesnt mean hes weak,on the contrary it means tagoma is that powerful.

And id ignore the movie scene with piccolo and sisame,since super changed some things.

And I dont see how there is any contradiction.

The z fighters were stated to hold back as to not kill any of freeza's men.Gohan when attacking zarbon was firing ki blasts appropriate to sisame's level,since he wasnt trying to kill him,hence sisame was able to block them.This is proven by the fact that sisame with all his strength couldnt even discomfort gohan while he wasnt even powered up let alone hurt him a little.

The PL in dbz are not contradicted.

Now because some of you may not like that tagoma and freeza surpassed the z fighters doesnt mean they r contradicting anything,since they clearly trained to gain those levels of power.

A contradiction is sisame vs piccolo in ROF movie.In Super there is none.

[Hugo Boss]

Sincerely, bringing characters from several portions of the original story at the same time requires a mix of downgrades, asspulls and character nonsense, to stay on topic to say the least.

The "well known" powerscale always brought up to this thread doesn't have to be followed by the content we are discussing here, you know. Old characters are mentioned back and forth, but they are just used for record. Not mentioned stuff should remain intact.

[Skar]

When I watched the soldier fight I assumed that Toriyama just forgot how strong the secondary Z fighters were. It's been over 20 years and he openly admits that he's forgotten a lot of the details.

-Freeza's 1.3 million power level. I don't think Toriyama would really consider a PL less than 50% stronger than 2nd form to be that impressive unless he forgot most of the Freeza saga PLs. It's possible that he just wanted to throw in some number that he thought would sound huge and the first PL that came to mind was the iconic "over 8000/9000" or something.

-I remember Freeza saying that Gohan could defeat the soldiers on his own if he wanted to. He didn't say anything about Piccolo, the Namek who was beating up his 2nd form. I think it's possible Toriyama forgot Piccolo's involvement during the Freeza saga and the last major fight he remembered for him was against Nappa. He could've thought "Piccolo was losing to Nappa all those years ago but it's been a long time so maybe he's as strong as Freeza's elites!" or something like that. That could explain why he was struggling against Shisami and why he needed to take off his weighed clothes against the other soldiers.

-The same might apply to Krillin and Tien. He could've forgotten that Tien's Tri-Beam was enough to push back Semi-Perfect Cell and a (weak?) attack from Buutenks and only remembered when it was used against Nappa. He could've assumed that if it didn't kill Nappa then maybe it would only be enough to hurt a large number of weak soldiers without killing them.

The other theory is that Toriyama did remember exactly how strong everyone was and had them all hold back to like less than 1% of their power to distract Freeza or give Roshi and Jaco a chance to fight. I can't tell which is more likely to be honest .