The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:30 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
supercat wrote:SSJ3 Goku trashes Rild with relative ease.

As I've mentioned in my earlier posts pertaining to Rild, if we assume Goku was comparing Rild to Buuhan, then he would have likely mentioned how Rild is even more powerful than Majin Buu was during the time Buu absorbed Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks. Such an acknowledgement would also serve to further emphasize how Rild is so powerful that he is potentially stronger than Buu plus four other fighters.
Well, regardless of which form of Buu that General Rild is comparable to, there's still a large gap implied between Goku @ Ledgic/Luud and Goku on M2. The multipliers for SS/2/3 are also implied to be very tiny also.
Actually the form of Buu that Goku was referring to is actually very important for this particular hypothetical battle. I think the strongest form of Buu GT SSJ3 Goku would be able to take down before heading out into space is Super Buu (no one absorbed). Therefore, regardless of how much Goku has powered up between the start of the series and M2, I find it very unlikely that his base form is going to be able to suddenly rival someone Buuhan level.

Because SSJ3 Goku could likely obliterate Kid Buu at the start of GT, I could see him effortlessly trashing Base Rild as well. If Base Rild was really a Buuhan tier fighter, and we go with the assumption that Goku has powered up that much since the start of the series, then it would seem plausible to me that Goku would at least start the fight off as SSJ2. Just another reason for me to believe Rild was being compared to Kid Buu, in addition to Goku neglecting to mention Rild being stronger than Buu with Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks' power.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:40 pm

Well, it's not really possible for Rild to be comparable to Pure Buu, he was stronger than Base Gohan, who, going by the GT Perfect Files should be no weaker than his Ultimate self from Z. So, if Base GT Gohan > Ultimate Gohan >> Super Buu, then Base Rild is most likely Gotenks-Buu/Gohan-Buu tier, although it makes little sense to compare Rild to Gotenks-Buu instead of just Gohan-Buu.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:16 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Well, it's not really possible for Rild to be comparable to Pure Buu, he was stronger than Base Gohan, who, going by the GT Perfect Files should be no weaker than his Ultimate self from Z.
I think as a whole, GT Gohan is far stronger than his Z self. However, I find it extremely unlikely that his base form alone is on the same level as his Ultimate form from Z.

I've never really considered Gohan's Ultimate form to be the same as just his regular base form, but rather more so as a pseudo transformation (in a positive way). Basically, I always felt that Gohan's Ultimate form enabled him to tap into the majority of his full potential (if not all) without having to go SSJ.

With that being said, I don't think Gohan ever lost the capability to go SSJ / SSJ2, but rather saw no need to push himself to that point, as the negligible power increase from the transformations, wouldn't have been worth the energy consumption.

If he continued training in GT, then what could have happened was, he found a way to increase the multipliers of his SSJ / SSJ2 transformations, thereby making the larger usage of energy worth it.

The way I see it is, Gohan chose not to go SSJ / SSJ2 in Z, as he likely did not want the small boosts gained from transforming at the expense of his energy / stamina. Who knows, perhaps at that point, the transformations wouldn't have even given him a boost at all. In GT, he likely went SSJ / SSJ2 after training, because as he increased his overall power, the power and relevance of his transformations also grew to the point of being useful again.

The following is what I find to be reasonable:
GT SSJ2 Gohan > GT SSJ Gohan > Z Ultimate Gohan > > GT Base Gohan

As for his battle against Rild, he was probably merely in his regular base form, which I feel is a good amount below his Ultimate Z self for reasons I just explained.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:26 pm

Although, his base form still has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes and hair.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:51 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Although, his base form still has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes and hair.

While he certainly did have a sharper look at times, I don't think his eyes and hair should be the determining criteria here.

Considering how many times Gohan has changed hairstyles, I wouldn't be surprised if this was just another way for him to sport his hair.

Again, while I can acknowledge the fact that Gohan likely has gotten stronger since Z, I don't buy into the whole concept of his GT base form equaling his Ultimate form from Z.

I honestly don't even have a problem with Gohan retaining his Ultimate form in GT, but I just feel like there hasn't been anything to actually confirm this, or even strongly imply it for that matter.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Angelus » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:17 am

Alright here's another try at this ape thing. lol

Manga Base Kid Trunks (Start of Buu Arc, before knowing there was a 25th WMAT) VS Anime Great Ape Future Gohan (One-Armed peak) -- No blowing up of moons, tail-cutting/grabbing, and Great Ape Future Gohan is fully focused on killing Kid Trunks and is in full control of his form

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:23 am

Angelus wrote:Alright here's another try at this ape thing. lol

Manga Base Kid Trunks (Start of Buu Arc, before knowing there was a 25th WMAT) VS Anime Great Ape Future Gohan (One-Armed peak) -- No blowing up of moons, tail-cutting/grabbing, and Great Ape Future Gohan is fully focused on killing Kid Trunks and is in full control of his form
I imagine you mean that both fighters would transform into Oozaru while in their base forms correct?

If so, I give this to Base Kid Trunks.

If this is SSJ Future Gohan transforming into Oozaru, Trunks has no chance.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Angelus » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:20 am

No, Kid Trunks stays base. Future Gohan turns into a Great Ape, from base of course, otherwise it would be known as Golden Great Ape or SSJ Great Ape.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:39 am

Angelus wrote:No, Kid Trunks stays base. Future Gohan turns into a Great Ape, from base of course, otherwise it would be known as Golden Great Ape or SSJ Great Ape.
Okay, I completely misread your last post.

If Future Gohan turns Oozaru, he would destroy Kid Trunks (regular base form) with the utmost ease.

Even if we assume that Base Future Gohan is only on par with Base Goku (against Frieza on Namek), the Oozaru multiplier would likely put Future Gohan miles above Trunks.

While there is that possibility that Kid Trunks (before training for tournament) is already stronger than Base Goku (against Frieza on Namek), it seems highly unlikely that the young Saiyan would be 10x stronger than Base Goku (against Frieza on Namek).

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:02 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote: Super Cooler has been given a power level of 470 million. That's nearly 4 times stronger than 100% Freeza. I don't have any of the mainline characters getting that strong until 17 and 18 show up.
Kamiccolo wasn't that power level just from a V jump when it was hyping up Coola, Broli, and Gogeta for Budokai 3? Their power levels were something like 470 million (Cooler), 1.4 billion (Broli) and 2.5 billion (Gogeta). It doesn't make much sense to me, but obviously there's no harm in following them, it's just I choose not to.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Although, his base form still has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes and hair.
After first achieving his "Ultimate" form in the Kaioshin realm Gohan always has an outline around his eyes, and judging from the manga in his fight with Boo he still had to power up before fighting.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:00 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote: Super Cooler has been given a power level of 470 million. That's nearly 4 times stronger than 100% Freeza. I don't have any of the mainline characters getting that strong until 17 and 18 show up.
Kamiccolo wasn't that power level just from a V jump when it was hyping up Coola, Broli, and Gogeta for Budokai 3? Their power levels were something like 470 million (Cooler), 1.4 billion (Broli) and 2.5 billion (Gogeta). It doesn't make much sense to me, but obviously there's no harm in following them, it's just I choose not to.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Although, his base form still has his Ultimate-exclusive eyes and hair.
After first achieving his "Ultimate" form in the Kaioshin realm Gohan always has an outline around his eyes, and judging from the manga in his fight with Boo he still had to power up before fighting.
Yeah. It's still an official power level, though, so I count it.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:29 am

I usually don't pay those three V-Jump power levels any mind, for one big reason... given newer info, they can't work together.

So super-form Coola's at 470 million, right? Let's say Super Saiyan Goku was (at least) 500 million to beat him. Thanks to the SEG, we know how much stronger Super Saiyan 3 makes Goku over SS1. 500 million times 8 equals 4 billion... quite a bit stronger than the 2.5 billion listed for Super Gogeta. Who easily destroyed Janemba. Who easily defeated Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

So yeah, if those 3 numbers can't even work with each other, I see no reason to try making them work with anything else. I could see them working for other forms of the characters, though. Metal Coola, Super Saiyan Broli, base Gogeta...
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:32 am

Kaboom wrote:I usually don't pay those three V-Jump power levels any mind, for one big reason... given newer info, they can't work together.

So super-form Coola's at 470 million, right? Let's say Super Saiyan Goku was at 500 million to beat him. Thanks to the SEG, we know how much stronger Super Saiyan 3 makes Goku over SS1. 500 million times 8 equals 4 billion... quite a bit stronger than the 2.5 billion listed for Super Gogeta. Who easily destroyed Janemba. Who easily defeated Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

So yeah, if those 3 numbers can't even work with each other, I see no reason to try making them work with anything else. I could see them working for other forms of the characters, though. Metal Coola, Super Saiyan Broli, base Gogeta...
As far as I'm concerned, they're not meant to work together. Except for the ones that are direct continuations of previous movies, I don't see the films as being connected. They are all standalone "universes." That's why I no longer base the characters' power in the movies off of the corresponding points in the anime. Movie 5 Goku can be much stronger than anime Freeza or Android arc Goku, and it doesn't contradict anything, since they aren't connected anyway.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:33 pm

Kaboom wrote:I usually don't pay those three V-Jump power levels any mind, for one big reason... given newer info, they can't work together.

So super-form Coola's at 470 million, right? Let's say Super Saiyan Goku was (at least) 500 million to beat him. Thanks to the SEG, we know how much stronger Super Saiyan 3 makes Goku over SS1. 500 million times 8 equals 4 billion... quite a bit stronger than the 2.5 billion listed for Super Gogeta. Who easily destroyed Janemba. Who easily defeated Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

So yeah, if those 3 numbers can't even work with each other, I see no reason to try making them work with anything else. I could see them working for other forms of the characters, though. Metal Coola, Super Saiyan Broli, base Gogeta...

That actually does make a lot of sense. I could definitely see those numbers having a close correlation with their alternate forms. Interesting way of looking at it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:11 pm

Nail vs Oozaru Nappa - No knowledge of weakness's

Yajirobe vs Saibamen

Conquer of Namek Scenario:
Saiyan Arc- Goku, Krilin, Yajirobe, Chaotzu, Gohan, Tien, Yamcha( 1 senzu each)

Wildcard-Piccolo (You must include where he stood and his role)

Namekians are unaware that they're being invaded.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:51 pm

LightBing wrote:Nail vs Oozaru Nappa - No knowledge of weakness's

Yajirobe vs Saibamen

Conquer of Namek Scenario:
Saiyan Arc- Goku, Krilin, Yajirobe, Chaotzu, Gohan, Tenshinhan, Yamcha( 1 senzu each)

Wildcard-Piccolo (You must include where he stood and his role)

Namekians are unaware that they're being invaded.

- Depends on where you have Nappa. If he's in the low 4,000 range then Nail has a decent chance of securing victory, as his battle power was stated to be 42,000. If you have Nappa upwards in the 7,000 range, the Namekian has no chance at all.

- Saibamen likely takes this.

- The Z-Fighters all get crushed by Nail.

It would start off with Goku one-shotting the Warrior Namekians, and his buddies holding their own against the villagers. Nail would then proceed to trash each of the invaders with the utmost ease.

The only way they can pull this off is if Goku gets a Zenkai after consuming his senzu, and then promptly uses his Kaioken x3 with precision. This is assuming that Nail doesn't one-shot the Saiyan, which is also certainly a possibility.

As for the others, they wouldn't even be able to really faze the warrior Namekians (likely at about 3,000 each), let alone Nail.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:42 pm

LightBing wrote:Nail vs Oozaru Nappa - No knowledge of weakness's

Yajirobe vs Saibamen

Conquer of Namek Scenario:
Saiyan Arc- Goku, Krilin, Yajirobe, Chaotzu, Gohan, Tenshinhan, Yamcha( 1 senzu each)

Wildcard-Piccolo (You must include where he stood and his role)

Namekians are unaware that they're being invaded.
Nail wins after a really hard fight.
Saibaimen wins.
Nail kills them all.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:57 pm

Nail - Gauntlet

Zarbon and Dodoria (together)
Transformed Zarbon and Dodoria (together)
Recoome
Burter
Jeice

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:08 pm

Super Buu vs Golden Frieza

In terms of sheer strength, this is a lopsided match, obviously, but here's the main question: will Frieza get absorbed?
supercat wrote:Nail - Gauntlet
Zarbon and Dodoria (together)
Transformed Zarbon and Dodoria (together)
Recoome
Burter
Jeice
Nail beats everyone on this list. Zarbon and Dodoria are both fodder to him. Each individual Ginyu member is said to possess a power level of about 40,000, whereas Nail has one of 42,000, so I have him barely beating each individual Ginyu member here. Now, if Jeice and Burter tag-teamed against him, they win.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:18 pm

supercat wrote:Nail - Gauntlet

Zarbon and Dodoria (together)
One shot's both.
Transformed Zarbon and Dodoria (together)
Zarbon gets a punch in, but gets blasted together with Dodoria.
Recoome
I give this to Recoome because of his durability, in terms of power I have him even with Nail.
Burter
Could go both ways; Nail wins 6 out of 10 because Burter's cockiness is a factor.
Jeice
Again very even; same thing with Burter, just a different gimmick.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Super Buu vs Golden Freeza

In terms of sheer strength, this is a lopsided match, obviously, but here's the main question: will Freeza get absorbed?
I doubt it. Freeza would immediately destroy him.

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