Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Sounds like denial at this point, but thats too bad. The story is relatively simple. If jirens power is far beyond Vados' comprehension then he's beyond her. It's really that simple. It's 1+1=2 levels of simple.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Jiren made it very clear that Goku and Hit were the only two opponents he needed to fight personally, and Toppo & Dyspo are enough to handle everyone else. So the powerscale goes something like this:

UI Goku >=Jiren>>>>>>>>>>>Goku>=Hit>Topo>Dyspo>Everyone else.

Straight out the horse mouth.




This episode also shows clearly that Ribrianne is weaker than base Sayians, but we knew that since the special.

You can not take this speech in the literal sense.

It would be the same as saying that Dyspo and Toppo> Vegeta and Freeza (ignoring that Dyspo almost had his ears cut by Maji kayo, much weaker than all those cited)

Jiren only knew (of big opponents in the tournament) Hit and Goku. It is natural to think that with the two defeated, his victory was certain. And Jiren fought Hit only because the killer came to him.

His main objective was only to defeat Son Goku (Hit was not in the plans).
Showing that Hit was not a threat to the Pride Trooper at that time
So, we can not even consider Hit> Toppo

Only he has never seen Vegeta or Freeza, and so they think Toppo and Dyspo could defeat all other participants, which is not true (with what was shown by the two)

[darzap]

Sounds like denial at this point, but thats too bad. The story is relatively simple. If jirens power is far beyond Vados' comprehension then he's beyond her. It's really that simple. It's 1+1=2 levels of simple.

The self-assurance members of the DB community display, when they establish their speculations as undisputable facts is beyond my comprehension. I'll bookmark this page, though, for later reference.

[Smilodon]

Sounds like denial at this point, but thats too bad. The story is relatively simple. If jirens power is far beyond Vados' comprehension then he's beyond her. It's really that simple. It's 1+1=2 levels of simple.

Of course not...
The angels talks like this to bring emotion for us...They are not comparing with theirs power.... Whia said in previous tournament that Hit's improveme t gives him fear.... But he can defeat hit with one blink....
It's impossible to Jiren be even close to Vado's power.... There's no comparison, come on guys. Daishinkan said hit is a very strong guy.... But agains him, hit would be a little worm against a lion

[BlueVegerot]

Vados never said Jiren was beyond HER comprehension. Stop taking everything so literally. They are talking about Jiren in comparison to the other fighters: "He is on another level" , "he is in a class of his own"

Remember when Gowasu said M Zamasu power expanded to infinite depths? Then goku alone overpowered him and kicked his halo off. Those lines are just to hype up fighters, don't take them literally

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Um, no? That doesn't make any sense. The same logic is used by people whom still this day try to argue that jiren isn't the mortal that Whis was talking about.

She stated that jirens power is far beyond comprehension. Therefore his strength is far beyond what she can comprehend. If his power is beyond comprehension, then she can't comprehend it. It's the same 1+1=2 conclusion that I talked about prior.

It's this kind of bias that makes people hold the gods on a pedestal even though their power is nothing special in the grand scheme of things in the story.

[GodVegetto91]

Sounds like denial at this point, but thats too bad. The story is relatively simple. If jirens power is far beyond Vados' comprehension then he's beyond her. It's really that simple. It's 1+1=2 levels of simple.

This has got the be the worst assumption i have ever seen someone make here on Kanzenshuu. Especially when you try to disquise it as a fact.

There is NO reason at all to assume that Jiren is stronger than Vados or ANY Angel for that matter, based on a Vague statement. Her comment simply implies that Jiren's ability surpassed her expectations, nothing more, nothing less.

[Bullza]

I could definitely see Jiren being above Beerus and the other Gods of Destruction but nowhere even remotely close to the Angels.

Whis took Beerus out with one little chop.

[fadeddreams5]

Um, no? That doesn't make any sense. The same logic is used by people whom still this day try to argue that jiren isn't the mortal that Whis was talking about.

She stated that jirens power is far beyond comprehension. Therefore his strength is far beyond what she can comprehend. If his power is beyond comprehension, then she can't comprehend it. It's the same 1+1=2 conclusion that I talked about prior.

It's this kind of bias that makes people hold the gods on a pedestal even though their power is nothing special in the grand scheme of things in the story.

She can't comprehend how a mortal can be that strong. That does not prove or disprove the possibility of him being stronger than an angel.

What we strictly know is he's as strong as a god of destruction or "possibly stronger." An angel isn't "possibly stronger" than a GoD; they're infinitely superior.

[Liquir]

Was Grand Priest's changing the color of the Void an impressive feat ? The World of Void is stated to be infinite in size, so did the Grand Priest by changing color of the Void create color infinite in size ?

[BlueVegerot]

Remember when Gowasu said SSJ2 goku rivaled Beerus in power? The same ssj2 goku who a year later isn't even strong enough to defeat gohan or 17 .

Stop taking statements so literally and as absolute fact. Understand context

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vados didn't say anything about jiren surpassing expectations. She stated that his power was far beyond comprehension. Now the meaning of that is obvious when you stop making assumptions.

No I won't stop following the story properly. A lack of following the story is why people claim that it says that Ssb Vegito and beerus are comparable. It's why people think that jiren and beerus are comparable and to supplement this people try to argue that "perhaps" is a synonym for slightly even though by definition it doesn't quantify anything.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Vados didn't say anything about jiren surpassing expectations. She stated that his power was far beyond comprehension. Now the meaning of that is obvious when you stop making assumptions.

No I won't stop following the story properly. A lack of following the story is why people claim that it says that Ssb Vegito and beerus are comparable. It's why people think that jiren and beerus are comparable and to supplement this people try to argue that "perhaps" is a synonym for slightly even though by definition it doesn't quantify anything.

Well, you aren't following the story properly. You've failed to factor in context and narrative.

The narrative context of the scene shows Vados nonchalantly referring to Jiren's power as beyond comprehension as he's fighting in the tournament arena with Hit. Thus, from this we gather that she's referring to Jiren in comparison to the other fighters in the Tournament of Power, which is categorically correct as demonstrated when he easily took down the second strongest fighter easily, SSB/Kaio-kenX20 Goku.

The context of other scenes are similarly nuanced. As Jiren is pushing back the Genkidama, Whis sees that this power is like that of a Hakaishin, that he has reached that level, that he perhaps has surpassed it, and that it seems that the rumour of a Hakaishin that can't defeat a mortal is true. There's also Jiren's info card on Toei's website that states that he has power comparable to the Hakaishin. Thus, the context here is that Jiren's power is within the range of the Hakaishin, and could potentially be higher.

[avasatu]

Remember when Gowasu said SSJ2 goku rivaled Beerus in power? The same ssj2 goku who a year later isn't even strong enough to defeat gohan or 17 .

Stop taking statements so literally and as absolute fact. Understand context

"Rivaled" was the imperative word used. Whis and Belmod both straight up spoon-fed us that Jiren is Hakaishin or Hakaishin+ level. No "rivaling" about it.

Given the nature of Jiren's fights thus far, Jiren is in fact immensely more powerful than Belmod. The narrative certainly seems to be pointing to that, and the Supreme Kai's second set of comments make me believe suppressed Spirit-Bomb Jiren was stronger than MZ by a large amount, and thus likely somewhat near Beerus. He has only struggled versus Hit, and that was because he hadn't yet decided to go all 4D on us.

Even once he did, though, it wasn't as if he easily broke from the prison. To me, that shows he was using a good sized chunk of his power, or he's just unwilling to power-up in general. Both or just one of those options could be true.

[Jigurashi]

Jiren seems like an expert in hand-to-hand combat.

Does he know boxing?

His fight with Hitto was fun. It made him look more skilled of a fighter than when he fought SSB Goku. He adapted to Tokitobashi + Cross Dimension in seconds. I also for some reason love the scene of him looking at Hitto's punches near the end of their fight and dodging accordingly while in a boxing stance.

Jiren made it very clear that Goku and Hit were the only two opponents he needed to fight personally, and Toppo & Dyspo are enough to handle everyone else. So the powerscale goes something like this:

UI Goku >=Jiren>>>>>>>>>>>Goku>=Hit>Topo>Dyspo>Everyone else.

Straight out the horse mouth.




This episode also shows clearly that Ribrianne is weaker than base Sayians, but we knew that since the special.

Nothing puts UI Goku >= Jiren.

[BlueVegerot]

Remember when Gowasu said SSJ2 goku rivaled Beerus in power? The same ssj2 goku who a year later isn't even strong enough to defeat gohan or 17 .

Stop taking statements so literally and as absolute fact. Understand context

"Rivaled" was the imperative word used. Whis and Belmod both straight up spoon-fed us that Jiren is Hakaishin or Hakaishin+ level. No "rivaling" about it.

Given the nature of Jiren's fights thus far, Jiren is in fact immensely more powerful than Belmod. The narrative certainly seems to be pointing to that, and the Supreme Kai's second set of comments make me believe suppressed Spirit-Bomb Jiren was stronger than MZ by a large amount, and thus likely somewhat near Beerus. He has only struggled versus Hit, and that was because he hadn't yet decided to go all 4D on us.

Even once he did, though, it wasn't as if he easily broke from the prison. To me, that shows he was using a good sized chunk of his power, or he's just unwilling to power-up in general. Both or just one of those options could be true.

I never said Jiren wasn't on the level of GoDs. The guy above was arguing that Jiren was stronger then Angels because of their statements. My point was that he needs to look at context and not just take it at face value

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Doesn't even make sense. Him fighting hit doesn't mean that the statement only applies to the tournament fighters, especially when that isn't stated. That's an assumption, not "properly reading the context".

Bluntly put, we have an angel saying that Jirens power is beyond comprehension.
The context is Vados talking about his power and the reason for this statement is that jiren accomplished something far beyond the ability of everyone there, hence him being beyond comprehension from Vados' viewpoint.

It's stated that jiren reached the state of hakaishin, not that he's equal to any of them. Again, reading things into the context that don't exist. Beerus was shocked at suppressed Jirens strength and wondered how one person could have that much energy, which means that he doesn't even have as much power as the suppressed jiren that fought kaioken Goku.
And no, beerus doesn't state that he's surprised that a mortal could have that much energy, just in case anyone tries to add a layer to the statement that doesn't exist.

If the realm of hakaishin begins at 10, ends at 1000 and jiren is at 2000, it's still logically consistent with the story. So no, jiren being stated to reach the state of hakaishin means nothing in supporting the notion that he's actually comparable to the other hakaishin despite reaching that realm.
Though again, you're assuming that the angels have surpassed the state of hakaishin, which isn't supported anywhere. They're just stronger than their gods. Nowhere is it stated that they've transcended the state of hakaishin. But we do have an angels statement that jiren is far beyond comprehension which again would logically place their limits far below what jiren displayed.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Doesn't even make sense. Him fighting hit doesn't mean that the statement only applies to the tournament fighters, especially when that isn't stated. That's an assumption, not "properly reading the context".

Bluntly put, we have an angel saying that Jirens power is beyond comprehension.
The context is Vados talking about his power and the reason for this statement is that jiren accomplished something far beyond the ability of everyone there, hence him being beyond comprehension from Vados' viewpoint.

It's stated that jiren reached the state of hakaishin, not that he's equal to any of them. Again, reading things into the context that don't exist. Beerus was shocked at suppressed Jirens strength and wondered how one person could have that much energy, which means that he doesn't even have as much power as the suppressed jiren that fought kaioken Goku.
And no, beerus doesn't state that he's surprised that a mortal could have that much energy, just in case anyone tries to add a layer to the statement that doesn't exist.

If the realm of hakaishin begins at 10, ends at 1000 and jiren is at 2000, it's still logically consistent with the story. So no, jiren being stated to reach the state of hakaishin means nothing in supporting the notion that he's actually comparable to the other hakaishin despite reaching that realm.
Though again, you're assuming that the angels have surpassed the state of hakaishin, which isn't supported anywhere. They're just stronger than their gods. Nowhere is it stated that they've transcended the state of hakaishin. But we do have an angels statement that jiren is far beyond comprehension which again would logically place their limits far below what jiren displayed.

Okay then. So why don't other statements like that apply. Merged Zamasu was said to have unbelievable strength, the greatest ever sensed, BEFORE he became corrupted.

And why didn't Vados specifically say that he was greater than the Angels if that's what you truly believe was meant by the dialogue? Why didn't she say that his power was beyond HER comprehension? Does his power being beyond comprehension mean that it's just flat-out incomprehensible to anyone, including Zeno and the Daishinkan? Based on YOUR logic, that would indeed be the case.

[RedHeat]

Sure, but what DOES make sense is that Shin never felt anything like Jiren before. Even when he's been with Beerus and Whis.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Why wouldn't merged zamasus statements apply? He states that he's the most powerful god, the Kaioshin states that they have never seen such a powerful light and that merged zamasus standing as a god was beyond their comprehension.

This is part of the problem. You're suggesting certain conditionals be fulfilled that don't have to be fulfilled. It doesn't need to be stated verbatim "jiren is stronger than Vados". That's not the only way characters can be shown to be stronger than one another. Vados stated that Jirens power is far beyond comprehension. That is sufficient. The feats that he pulled off are far beyond what she thinks should be possible. The grand priest and Zeno are irrelevant.

Jirens power is incomprehensible to her. You're playing with the wording at this point. Vados stating that Jirens power is incomprehensible means the exact same thing as "Jirens power is incomprehensible to me". She thinks that Jirens power is beyond comprehension, otherwise she never would have said it in the first place.