Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

so piccolo in super is ginyu force level?

yh, i wouldnt take that serios.
you cant say we should ignore the power level's in dbz when they compared them to dodoria and zarbon in super.

correct me if I'm wrong, so shisami and tagoma where first compared to dodoria and zarbon.
gohan in base was about to stomp shisami.
he kept talking as if its nothig while bear hugged.

tagoma surpassed the ginyu force and got a lot stronger but weaker than ssj gohan

in the movie piccolo seemed to struggle against shisami.
who is dodoria or zarbon level.

either piccolo was not serios at all or its simply bullshit.
becouse making piccolo who was stated to still train by toriyama iirc this much weaker for no reason , shits over all of his progression from the namek saga till buu saga yet they use zarbon and dodoria from dbz.

i dont know but this reeks bullshit.
so only piccolo got weaker for no reason?(gohan is a diffrent case)

nope, he's stronger than ginyu force.

1. Shisami in DBS was stronger than dodoria level, but he hasn't surpassed ginyu force.

2. Shisami was nowhere near his movie power in super.

3. Tagoma was stronger than ginyu force when suppressed. He powered up even more. However, he was still weaker than ginyu, but not much.

So, piccolo is somewhat below namek goku level. This'd mean PC = namek goku & #17 = dodoria

[buutenks]

So, piccolo is somewhat below namek goku level. This'd mean PC = namek goku & #17 = dodoria

How did u came to that conclusion?

[Khin]

Tagoma was stronger than ginyu force when suppressed. He powered up even more. However, he was still weaker than ginyu, but not much.

Lol What ? Where did you get this?

So, piccolo is somewhat below namek goku level. This'd mean PC = namek goku & #17 = dodoria

That doesnt make sense at all.

[apex_pretador]

So, piccolo is somewhat below namek goku level. This'd mean PC = namek goku & #17 = dodoria

How did u came to that conclusion?

Tagoma is close to ginyu & piccolo is close to PC.

Tagoma was stronger than ginyu force when suppressed. He powered up even more. However, he was still weaker than ginyu, but not much.

Lol What ? Where did you get this?

So, piccolo is somewhat below namek goku level. This'd mean PC = namek goku & #17 = dodoria

That doesnt make sense at all.

many things in RoF don't make sense. How do you become 50,000 times stronger in 4 months & don't even break scouter ?
How does the scouter of the soldiers fighting krillin don't break?
How no one says that freeza's power was unbelievable before gold form , but say so after transformation even though SBG & SSB can't be very large gap ?

[Khin]

many things in RoF don't make sense. How do you become 50,000 times stronger in 4 months & don't even break scouter ?

Where do even get that 50,000 ? And also Vegeta and Freeza become gazillion times stronger in 6 & 4 months,so its not something new.

How does the scouter of the soldiers fighting krillin don't break?

Scouter only breaks up when the number rises fast.You can see this many times in the series (Bulma using Raditz scouter to check Goku's power,Vegeta powering up against Kewi,Vegeta powering up against Freeza,Goku powering up in the 2008 special etc...)

How no one says that freeza's power was unbelievable before gold form , but say so after transformation even though SBG & SSB can't be very large gap ?

Are you referring to 1st or his Final Form ? For 1st Form,you can clearly see Tenshinhan and the others are amazed by Freeza's power when he landed on earth.For his Final Form,I havent paying much attention to Super since episode 22,however,in the movie,you can clearly see Goku,Vegeta and the other shiting bricks when Freeza goes into his Final Form.

[Bullza]

In the latest episode of Super this time around Goku does power down out of his SSGSS form before being struck by the laser so that's something. I know people had mentioned that they should have done that in the movie.

Also Herms said this.

"After the eye-catch, Goku and Freeza both power up and start fighting "for real". Kuririn marvels at how much more power they were hiding."

Which is odd because didn't he say he couldn't sense Goku's power before? I'm not sure if that was the last episode or the one before it.

[Birusu16]

At least they actually made it clear that Golden Freeza was vastly superior to SSB Goku in Super. He actually dominated here whereas in the movie it was fairly even.

[dbzfan7]

many things in RoF don't make sense. How do you become 50,000 times stronger in 4 months & don't even break scouter ?

Where do even get that 50,000 ? And also Vegeta and Freeza become gazillion times stronger in 6 & 4 months,so its not something new.

Nothing new? I think some people may not understand just how insane their boosts are. Vegeta went from about Solar System/Solar System+ Tier (Or small star bust tier) to Universal threat (Possible not one shot but definite threat) in like 6 month's. Freeza went from Large Planet +/Multi Planet bust to Universal threat in 4 month's. That's a ridiculous amount of power to obtain in a short amount of time. They went up several destructive classes in the shortest amount of time.

[apex_pretador]

many things in RoF don't make sense. How do you become 50,000 times stronger in 4 months & don't even break scouter ?

Where do even get that 50,000 ? And also Vegeta and Freeza become gazillion times stronger in 6 & 4 months,so its not something new.

tagoma.
Freeza is understandable. Vegeta was doing special training with whis, who's been strongest in U7 for hundreds of millions of years, & teaching beerus fighting for that long.

How does the scouter of the soldiers fighting krillin don't break?

Scouter only breaks up when the number rises fast.You can see this many times in the series (Bulma using Raditz scouter to check Goku's power,Vegeta powering up against Kewi,Vegeta powering up against Freeza,Goku powering up in the 2008 special etc...)

No scouter has survived freeza in the series.
Even when he was revived, all scouters broke. He didn't even have a scouter number for his second form, only an approximate.

How no one says that freeza's power was unbelievable before gold form , but say so after transformation even though SBG & SSB can't be very large gap ?

Are you referring to 1st or his Final Form ? For 1st Form,you can clearly see Tenshinhan and the others are amazed by Freeza's power when he landed on earth.For his Final Form,I havent paying much attention to Super since episode 22,however,in the movie,you can clearly see Goku,Vegeta and the other shiting bricks when Freeza goes into his Final Form.

Even before they sensed him , they all are worried about him. None of them was like "well, any of the saiyans or even piccolo can 1-shot him". They were all like "could we even manage it ?"

Goku was like "wow , you've improved a lot" when he went to his final form, & he said it like it was possible , but hard to believe, not million times strong.
But when he went to golden form, he was like " WHAT? IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE? I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU CAN ACHIEVE THIS MUCH POWER" even after knowing that he's hiding a lot of power.


DB super really has a confusing power scale. The only way it can make sense is if you compare it with namek :

piccolo = pre fusion ~ = namek goku
Ginyu = ginyu
Tagoma (pre training) = dodoria
ginyu force << Tagoma < ginyu
Shisame <= ginyu force
Gohan (vs freeza) >= namek goku
final form F = base goku
full power F >= SS goku (pre stamina fall)
full power F << SS goku (post stamina fall)


By manga, we can tell that piccolo must be really close to, if not equal to , PC. We just cant compare the two easily.

[Khin]

Freeza is understandable. Vegeta was doing special training with whis, who's been strongest in U7 for hundreds of millions of years, & teaching beerus fighting for that long.

Even if Whis is the one who trained Vegeta,the power boost is still ridiculous,he become at least 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 10 Sextillion times stronger (Assuming that Vegeta was Solar System level before training and become Universal),and then there's Freeza,who recieve an even bigger boost in only 4 months.And dont get me started on ROF Shisami who become Piccolo-tier out of nowhere.

No scouter has survived freeza in the series.
Even when he was revived, all scouters broke. He didn't even have a scouter number for his second form, only an approximate.

Like i said before,scouters only breaks when the number are rising fast.Freeza's power is starting to rose when he got revived thats why the scouters broke.And Kuririn is nowhere near as 2nd Form Freeza,he's only 1st Form Freeza at best.

Even before they sensed him , they all are worried about him. None of them was like "well, any of the saiyans or even piccolo can 1-shot him". They were all like "could we even manage it ?"

The only people that we saw that got scared of Freeza are Jaco,Bulma and Kuririn and all of them was nowhere near as Freeza even before his training.And Bulma was even confident that Gohan can one shot Freeza by now until Gohan tells him that Freeza got way stronger than before.

Goku was like "wow , you've improved a lot" when he went to his final form, & he said it like it was possible , but hard to believe, not million times strong.
But when he went to golden form, he was like " WHAT? IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE? I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU CAN ACHIEVE THIS MUCH POWER" even after knowing that he's hiding a lot of power.

What are you trying to say here ? Are you saying that Freeza become gazillion times stronger when he transformed into his Golden Form ?

DB super really has a confusing power scale. The only way it can make sense is if you compare it with namek :

piccolo = pre fusion ~ = namek goku
Ginyu = ginyu
Tagoma (pre training) = dodoria
ginyu force << Tagoma < ginyu
Shisame <= ginyu force
Gohan (vs freeza) >= namek goku
final form F = base goku
full power F >= SS goku (pre stamina fall)
full power F << SS goku (post stamina fall)


By manga, we can tell that piccolo must be really close to, if not equal to , PC. We just cant compare the two easily.

Yes,Super got a messy power scaling,however.It will not as messy as you think if you just accept that Tagoma got a ridiculous power boost.


Shisami = Recoome tier or higher(Tagoma was Zarbon tier before training,however Sorbet hyped Shisami as the strongest of Freeza's army and made it look like he's above Tagoma and there's also a scene where this Shisami was able to deflect some blast from Gohan,so he could be higher.)

Piccolo = Cell Junior tier or higher

Tagoma = Perfect Cell tier

Gohan = Perfect Cell Tier or lower

Ginyu = Ranged from Super Perfect Cell tier to Super Boo tier

SSj Gohan = Ranged from SSj2 Goku tier to Ultimate Gohan tier

First Form Freeza (Post Training) = SSj3 Goku tier or way above

[buutenks]

I dont see how the power scaling is messy.There is nothing contradicting it.

Full power tagoma(aka ginyu using full power) is ssj2 tier or close to that.Gohan needs to go ssj to use his full power which got lower due to not training,so in ssj hed proly drop from above super buu to around ssj3 goku's level back in the buu saga or perhaps a bit above.

Piccolo is at cell jr level.

And shisame is around recoome level.

[Hugo Boss]

"Ginyu Force tiers getting in the way of Cell tiers" doesn't sound messy for you? I would prefer to ignore all the implications about Tagoma's power by assuming Shisami did secret training on his own and got killed by distraction. He was scared of the revived 1st form Freeza after all.

In the latest episode of Super this time around Goku does power down out of his SSGSS form before being struck by the laser so that's something. I know people had mentioned that they should have done that in the movie.

Also Herms said this.

"After the eye-catch, Goku and Freeza both power up and start fighting "for real". Kuririn marvels at how much more power they were hiding."

Which is odd because didn't he say he couldn't sense Goku's power before? I'm not sure if that was the last episode or the one before it.

Even so, I don't think dropping your defenses requires powering down at all. Base Goku could deflect 1st Form Freeza's laser beam with his fingers. I guess Sorbet's laser beam isn't even comparable and still was able to pierce Goku. Perhaps, it doesn't have to do with power, but with the resistance of his body.

Seeing as Goku and Freeza braced themselves and started fighting at higher speeds, Kuririn must have thought they were still hiding energy.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

"After the eye-catch, Goku and Freeza both power up and start fighting "for real". Kuririn marvels at how much more power they were hiding."

Which is odd because didn't he say he couldn't sense Goku's power before? I'm not sure if that was the last episode or the one before it.

Kuririn is most likely judging Goku's power by the way he fights instead of his battle power.

[Khin]

"Ginyu Force tiers getting in the way of Cell tiers" doesn't sound messy for you? I would prefer to ignore all the implications about Tagoma's power by assuming Shisami did secret training on his own and got killed by distraction. He was scared of the revived 1st form Freeza after all.

Ginyu Force tiers ? As far as i can remember,Tagoma was surpressed when Sorbet checks his PL,right after the scene,you can see him powering up making Goten and Trunks amazed by his Ki.

[Hugo Boss]

"Ginyu Force tiers getting in the way of Cell tiers" doesn't sound messy for you? I would prefer to ignore all the implications about Tagoma's power by assuming Shisami did secret training on his own and got killed by distraction. He was scared of the revived 1st form Freeza after all.

Ginyu Force tiers ? As far as i can remember,Tagoma was surpressed when Sorbet checks his PL,right after the scene,you can see him powering up making Goten and Trunks amazed by his Ki.

It was you and another user that were considering Shisami at Ginyu Force tiers while Gohan and Piccolo at Cell tiers. By that standard, Shisami's performance versus Gohan's is hardly justified. By the way, Tagoma's powerlevel didn't raise when he burned his aura, he just made his ki leak out. If Freeza's ki was leaking out Goten and Trunks would feel him right away, since everyone that can feel energy knew Freeza was stronger than Gohan. And, Tagoma can't control his battle power, that justifies Ginyu being stronger in his body.

[Khin]

It was you and another user that were considering Shisami at Ginyu Force tiers while Gohan and Piccolo at Cell tiers. By that standard, Shisami's performance versus Gohan's is hardly justified. By the way, Tagoma's powerlevel didn't raise when he burned his aura, he just made his ki leak out. If Freeza's ki was leaking out Goten and Trunks would feel him right away, since everyone that can feel energy knew Freeza was stronger than Gohan.

Didnt we already discussed this some time ago ? Again,Tenshinhan and the others was able to sense Freeza's Ki when he lands on earth despite Freeza not ''leaking out'' his ki.The leaking out thing doesnt even make sense from the start,Beerus was leaking out his Ki like it was nothing on his fight with Goku and Goku was also leaking out his Ki in his fight with Freeza,so those two didnt listen to what Whis says to them ? also,we can see many times in the series where characters was sensed despite not ''leaking out'' their Ki.(Vegeta and Nappa arriving on Earth,Super Boo sensing all of the Human's Ki,Vegeta and the others being amazed by Freeza's power when he transformed into his True Form on Namek etc..)

[Hugo Boss]

Sorry, I don't remember. For the record, Beerus and Goku are special cases, even if their aura is visible their ki still remains in their body. Freeza doesn't know how to do this, so everyone that can feel ordinary ki is able to sense him, specially if they are looking for him, which isn't the case of Goten & Trunks, because they didn't know Freeza was on Earth.

[Cipher]

Nothing new? I think some people may not understand just how insane their boosts are. Vegeta went from about Solar System/Solar System+ Tier (Or small star bust tier) to Universal threat (Possible not one shot but definite threat) in like 6 month's. Freeza went from Large Planet +/Multi Planet bust to Universal threat in 4 month's. That's a ridiculous amount of power to obtain in a short amount of time. They went up several destructive classes in the shortest amount of time.

Okay. But if you remove the arbitrary ability to bust things that is never used in the series as any sort of meaningful scale as far as power growth: Goku goes from not even being half as strong as Raditz to going toe-to-toe with Freeza in a little over a year.

That's some exponential growth.

For Tagoma, it seems pretty plain that he's either around Super Saiyan 2 level or Boo level, depending on how much power you think Gohan's drawing out as a Super Saiyan (which the series is vague enough about to allow for multiple reads).

Either way, that's solidly stronger than everyone but Gohan, which makes sense either way.

By that standard, Shisami's performance versus Gohan's is hardly justified.

All Shisami does against Gohan is get threatened and then get killed from behind. Super doesn't provide anything meaningful about how powerful he may or not be. You can assume a straight swap with post-training Tagoma in the movie, though, and that more or less comes out okay.

[dbzfan7]

Nothing new? I think some people may not understand just how insane their boosts are. Vegeta went from about Solar System/Solar System+ Tier (Or small star bust tier) to Universal threat (Possible not one shot but definite threat) in like 6 month's. Freeza went from Large Planet +/Multi Planet bust to Universal threat in 4 month's. That's a ridiculous amount of power to obtain in a short amount of time. They went up several destructive classes in the shortest amount of time.

Okay. But if you remove the arbitrary ability to bust things that is never used in the series as any sort of meaningful scale as far as power growth: Goku goes from not even being half as strong as Raditz to going toe-to-toe with Freeza in a little over a year.

That's some exponential growth.

It's not arbitrary. It's their destructive potential. Goku essentially goes from Moon buster to about Large planet buster/Multi Planet as a SSJ in a year or so through several means. Not nearly as big as a celestial jump. Not even close. It's a big jump sure, but not to that insane ridiculous degree. That earlier example is but a drop or two in the massive ocean of destructive capability that has just been gained. It's mere childs play. Numbers were never that consistent, but their destructive capabilities more or less evolved at decent consistent rate (Roshi being an early issue).

[Cipher]

It's not arbitrary. It's their destructive potential. Goku essentially goes from Moon buster to about Large planet buster/Multi Planet as a SSJ in a year or so through several means. Not nearly as big as a celestial jump. Not even close. It's a big jump sure, but not to that insane ridiculous degree. That earlier example is but a drop or two in the massive ocean of destructive capability that has just been gained. It's mere childs play. Numbers were never that consistent, but their destructive capabilities more or less evolved at decent consistent rate (Roshi being an early issue).

Goku gets more than 100,000 times stronger in a little over a year.

Why can't later characters do the same?

Nowhere does the series ever provide a philosophy about the ways different "destructive potentials" have to scale against each other. But it does, at least once, give us examples of characters multiplying their starting strength by a huge amount in a short time (if that's how Scouter-style Power Levels work, anyway, which I guess is a bit of an assumption as well).

Like, I get that it's tempting to bring some kind of logic in terms of what damage a character could do into the series, but that's really coming from outside the story itself. It never stops to establish, "Well, see, a character who can destroy a planet this big has to be X times stronger than someone who could destroy something else, which is a huge leap," etc. The only way they ever enter the series is to establish that someone is stronger than someone else/previous villains.