Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

It's not arbitrary. It's their destructive potential. Goku essentially goes from Moon buster to about Large planet buster/Multi Planet as a SSJ in a year or so through several means. Not nearly as big as a celestial jump. Not even close. It's a big jump sure, but not to that insane ridiculous degree. That earlier example is but a drop or two in the massive ocean of destructive capability that has just been gained. It's mere childs play. Numbers were never that consistent, but their destructive capabilities more or less evolved at decent consistent rate (Roshi being an early issue).

Goku gets more than 100,000 times stronger in a little over a year.

Why can't later characters do the same?

Nowhere does the series ever provide a philosophy about the ways different "destructive potentials" have to scale against each other. But it does, at least once, give us examples of characters multiplying their starting strength by a huge amount in a short time (if that's how Scouter-style Power Levels work, anyway, which I guess is a bit of an assumption as well).

Like, I get that it's tempting to bring some kind of logic in terms of what damage a character could do into the series, but that's really coming from outside the story itself. It never stops to establish, "Well, see, a character who can destroy a planet this big has to be X times stronger than someone who could destroy something else, which is a huge leap," etc. The only way they ever enter the series is to establish that someone is stronger than someone else/previous villains.

They were more or less planet busters til Cell brings up the Solar System thing, which can be legit or small star destruction. More or less we can scale off that. 100,000 is hardly shit compared to universal destruction. Not even close. Cell could get 100,000 times stronger and he'd still not be capable of something like that. He could get a billion times stronger and still not be capable of something like that. Vegeta and Freeza far surpassed that multiplication.

[Cipher]

Cell could get 100,000 times stronger and he'd still not be capable of something like that.

How do you know that? Just on the assumption that there are more than 100,000 solar systems in the universe? Who says the kind of universal-shockwave thing Goku and Beerus initiated last arc even requires a direct scale with the ability to directly destroy planets or solar systems?

[dbzfan7]

Cell could get 100,000 times stronger and he'd still not be capable of something like that.

How do you know that? Just on the assumption that there are more than 100,000 solar systems in the universe? Who says the kind of universal-shockwave thing Goku and Beerus initiated last arc even requires a direct scale with the ability to directly destroy planets or solar systems?

Their attacks can threaten the universe, which as Choezenshu 1 said is ever expanding and beyond human comprehension. That level of power is far greater than what 100000 Cells or even a billion Cells could accomplish. This is simply not just from a beam attack, but from punching too. Nobody could even punch a planet in half before, but now they can punch so hard it can effect the very universe. The scaling from before isn't even close to this. To even suggest Goku BOZ to Freeza is even close to the same is utterly laughable. It's like comparing a nuclear Bomb to the Big Bang.

In the series they constantly talk about being planetary threats and risking blowing up worlds, til Cell feeds the notion he could affect a single solar system. More or less Dragon Ball has always been planetary-SS tops. To move up to UT class is jumping by several destructive classes, which far surpasses simply going up a couple small classes such as continent to planet to large planet.

[Khin]

Super Perfect Cell is solar system buster (Debatable) while Beerus is Universal (Lets say at full power for lowball sake).There are at least 100 billion Solar Systems in a single galaxy and at least 100 Billion galaxies in an entire universe.Meaning Beerus is at least 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger than Cell.Thats 10 Sextillion.Heck even if we say that there are only 4 galaxies in Dragon Ball,Beerus is still 400 Billion times strong than Cell.Vegeta in ROF is somwhere around 70% of Beerus full power.Thats a very ridiculous power boost even if Whis is the one who trained him,and then there's Freeza who trained for a shorter amount of time and is nowhere near as SPC and become stronger than Vegeta.

In case you dont know the name of the large numbers,here it is.

- Million
- Billion
- Trillion
- Quadrillion
- Quintillion
- Sextillion
And many more.

Note : I dont know how this busting thing works,so i could be wrong.

Sorry, I don't remember. For the record, Beerus and Goku are special cases, even if their aura is visible their ki still remains in their body. Freeza doesn't know how to do this, so everyone that can feel ordinary ki is able to sense him, specially if they are looking for him, which isn't the case of Goten & Trunks, because they didn't know Freeza was on Earth.

Still doesnt explain how the hell Yamcha and the others was able to sense Vegeta and Nappa when they arrive on earth.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Their attacks can threaten the universe, which as Choezenshu 1 said is ever expanding and beyond human comprehension.

That's not what was said.

A sort of “mission statement” about the new section, about how the Dragon World is ever-expanding, and there have been new stories yet untold, featuring powerful enemies descending to Earth, and battles for the fate of planets in far-off space. The new world of Dragon Ball will continue to unfold…

This is what was said, and it's not even an in-universe statement, it is talking about the new stories that have yet to be told. We had gone up to Battle of Gods at that point, and since then there has been Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, XenoVerse, Resurrection "F", and the currently on-going Super. It's talking about these things.

[apex_pretador]

when did we start measuring power in terms of DC?
becase in that case, you need to be 100 billion times stronger to star bust/ solar system bust from earth busting level. You also need to be 2000 times stronger to get from moon level to earth level.

[dbzfan7]

Their attacks can threaten the universe, which as Choezenshu 1 said is ever expanding and beyond human comprehension.

That's not what was said.

A sort of “mission statement” about the new section, about how the Dragon World is ever-expanding, and there have been new stories yet untold, featuring powerful enemies descending to Earth, and battles for the fate of planets in far-off space. The new world of Dragon Ball will continue to unfold…

This is what was said, and it's not even an in-universe statement, it is talking about the new stories that have yet to be told. We had gone up to Battle of Gods at that point, and since then there has been Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, XenoVerse, Resurrection "F", and the currently on-going Super. It's talking about these things.

[Page 18]

NEW WORLD
The endlessly expanding world of the gods
Here we'll compile the mysteries of the unfathomable world of the gods which have newly come to light through the later expansion of Dragon Ball's story

The universe continues to expand beyond human comprehension

Super Perfect Cell is solar system buster (Debatable) while Beerus is Universal (Lets say at full power for lowball sake).There are at least 100 billion Solar Systems in a single galaxy and at least 100 Billion galaxies in an entire universe.Meaning Beerus is at least 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger than Cell.Thats 10 Sextillion.Heck even if we say that there are only 4 galaxies in Dragon Ball,Beerus is still 400 Billion times strong than Cell.Vegeta in ROF is somwhere around 70% of Beerus full power.Thats a very ridiculous power boost even if Whis is the one who trained him,and then there's Freeza who trained for a shorter amount of time and is nowhere near as SPC and become stronger than Vegeta.

In case you dont know the name of the large numbers,here it is.

- Million
- Billion
- Trillion
- Quadrillion
- Quintillion
- Sextillion
And many more.

Exactly why their boost is ridiculous. Unlike previous one's this one raises their destructive ability up several classes. I let Goku's go due to ritual power up, but Vegeta and Freeza are simply ridiculous to me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

[Page 18]

NEW WORLD
The endlessly expanding world of the gods
Here we'll compile the mysteries of the unfathomable world of the gods which have newly come to light through the later expansion of Dragon Ball's story

The universe continues to expand beyond human comprehension

Who translated this? And what is this section about specifically?

[dbzfan7]

[Page 18]

NEW WORLD
The endlessly expanding world of the gods
Here we'll compile the mysteries of the unfathomable world of the gods which have newly come to light through the later expansion of Dragon Ball's story

The universe continues to expand beyond human comprehension

Who translated this? And what is this section about specifically?

Herms did in an old thread
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22549

[Hugo Boss]

All Shisami does against Gohan is get threatened and then get killed from behind. Super doesn't provide anything meaningful about how powerful he may or not be. You can assume a straight swap with post-training Tagoma in the movie, though, and that more or less comes out okay.

Though Shisami can't faze Gohan, he isn't treated as fodder like the other soldiers. Meaningful or not, he is an opponent Piccolo offered help to beat. Strengthwise, this is not the kind of concern I would expect from someone suposed to be stronger than Freeza in relation to a Ginyu tier, but whatever.

Still doesnt explain how the hell Yamcha and the others was able to sense Vegeta and Nappa when they arrive on earth.

Perhaps Goten and Trunks aren't as skilled in sensing ki as the main cast? They probably need a stronger signal to be able to catch someone of a sudden. There is precedent in this case, but it comes from the Abocado's special. You may give credit to it or not. Or just add this bit to your list-of-inconsistences.

[saunasolmu]

Goku got from flipping a car level to moon level by delivering some milk! That's many quadrillion times increase! Surely that's more absurd than Whis' super Godly training increases their power by Godly amount.

[dbzfan7]

Goku got from flipping a car level to moon level by delivering some milk! That's many quadrillion times increase! Surely that's more absurd than Whis' super Godly training increases their power by Godly amount.

Max Power Buff Roshi was the moon buster. Goku did not reach that level of power. He was equal if not a bit better than normal Roshi. Heck Goku's Oozaru form is only considered to be as powerful as a battleships main gun in guidebooks. Goku's Super Kamehameha was labelled as the one that could bust moons, which he uses 6 years later as an adult. Also Car to moon is still minuscule compared to planet or SS to universe. Not even close. The amount of destruction is practically incalculable.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Herms did in an old thread
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22549

It seems to be talking about the endless creation/destruction process that the universe goes through because of the Kaioshin & Hakaishin, rather than the actual size of the universe, since this is what the whole section talks about.

[dbzfan7]

Herms did in an old thread
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22549

It seems to be talking about the endless creation/destruction process that the universe goes through because of the Kaioshin & Hakaishin, rather than the actual size of the universe, since this is what the whole section talks about.

That'd be the second topic on page 18 titled The world is reborn as destruction and creation repeat over and over, which talks about that process. The whole thing is under NEW WORLD, and divided into a few topics. One about the universe, and one about creation and destruction. Their are other topics under new world with their own titles.

Under the title of the ever expanding universe talks about the universe itself, Earth, the 4 quadrants, heaven, etc. The underlined are the titles to each topic. I take it as the universe pretty much is like ours. Enormous and not completely known. Beyond our comprehension but ever expanding.

[Saiyan007]

Super Perfect Cell is solar system buster (Debatable) while Beerus is Universal (Lets say at full power for lowball sake).There are at least 100 billion Solar Systems in a single galaxy and at least 100 Billion galaxies in an entire universe.Meaning Beerus is at least 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger than Cell.Thats 10 Sextillion.Heck even if we say that there are only 4 galaxies in Dragon Ball,Beerus is still 400 Billion times strong than Cell.Vegeta in ROF is somwhere around 70% of Beerus full power.Thats a very ridiculous power boost even if Whis is the one who trained him,and then there's Freeza who trained for a shorter amount of time and is nowhere near as SPC and become stronger than Vegeta.

In case you dont know the name of the large numbers,here it is.

- Million
- Billion
- Trillion
- Quadrillion
- Quintillion
- Sextillion
And many more.

Note : I dont know how this busting thing works,so i could be wrong.

While you're not technically wrong that number is far too low

Using your example with Cell being a solar system destroyer or sun destroyer for argument's sake that would take approximately 10^41 joules

Then Beerus at full power can destroy the entire universe which approximately takes 10^69 joules.

So Beerus at the very least is 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000x stronger than Cell



That's at the very least since that doesn't even take into account the the kai realms he could destroy as well

So yes it is quite insane the boosts these guys are getting

[saunasolmu]

While it' surely fun to look things from that perspective, it's kind of silly to "criticize" the power boosts based on physics and energy numbers that never appear or have any relevance in the story.

[LightBing]

I don't get how some of you guys can be bothered by the power gains in Dragon Ball. Ever since Goku climbed Karin Tower we have "silly" gains. Vegeta's and Freeza's most recent achievements fall in line with everything we've had.

Goku said he wouldn't be able to achieve that level on his own, he didn't, neither did Vegeta. Goku had the ritual, Vegeta received the training from Whis. Freeza is said to be a prodigy, we know he never trained. He was born with a power of 120.000.000, to put it in perspective Gohan, if you believe his rage power against Raditz is what he was born with, had 1.307. Is it inconceivable he reached the power he did, with training and a transformation?

In the story, nothing contradicts what happened. Being too much of an increase, too short of a time or not a satisfactory training method, are all limitations that don't exist.

The complaints are just people bouncing of their expectations. Not saying you can't criticize it, I would've like to have been given more detail to Freeza's training. It's legitimate to dislike it. However, it isn't absurd, it follows the logic we've had so far in Dragon Ball.
I find it weird, if one thinks these gains are unrealistic but the rest of them in the whole story, aren't.

[ekrolo2]

I don't get how some of you guys can be bothered by the power gains in Dragon Ball. Ever since Goku climbed Karin Tower we have "silly" gains. Vegeta's and Freeza's most recent achievements fall in line with everything we've had.

Goku said he wouldn't be able to achieve that level on his own, he didn't, neither did Vegeta. Goku had the ritual, Vegeta received the training from Whis. Freeza is said to be a prodigy, we know he never trained. He was born with a power of 120.000.000, to put it in perspective Gohan, if you believe his rage power against Raditz is what he was born with, had 1.307. Is it inconceivable he reached the power he did, with training and a transformation?

In the story, nothing contradicts what happened. Being too much of an increase, too short of a time or not a satisfactory training method, are all limitations that don't exist.

The complaints are just people bouncing of their expectations. Not saying you can't criticize it, I would've like to have been given more detail to Freeza's training. It's legitimate to dislike it. However, it isn't absurd, it follows the logic we've had so far in Dragon Ball.
I find it weird, if one thinks these gains are unrealistic but the rest of them in the whole story, aren't.

The power increase isn't a problem as a power increase, characters randomly got stronger all the time when they probably shouldn't have which is a fact. The problem with Freeza gaining so much power so quickly and (apparently) very easily destroys his whole fear of the Super Saiyan's. He has no reason to fear one! He can just torture Dodoria for a couple of hours and he'll murder Super Namek Piccolo tier warriors with a flick in his first, most restrained form.

It takes Freeza's awful, awful, god awful, fucking unbearably awful F characterization and retconning it into everything prior to F itself. It gets even worse if you take into account that Freeza apparently got pissed off at Beerus one time and got his ass handed to him. Why wouldn't he train to fight Beerus then? He's so petty he wouldn't tolerate anyone being stronger than him regardless if they were a Saiyan or not.

So yeah, the power increase as a power increase is fine if you actually bother to remember the rest of Dragon Ball (just look at Piccolo's insane power increases) but what it does to Freeza's character is pretty damn unforgivable the way its handled. If the new material was after EoZ and Freeza was revived during the 10 years in-between Kid Boo dying & Oob appearing then spent over a decade training, it would work a lot better. Hell, I'd even take what everyone else was spouting about how "Champa totally trained Freeza!" over the bullshit we have now.

How ironic that the movie that's supposed to be Freeza's Empire Strikes Back essentially destroys anything appealing about him.

[LightBing]

The power increase isn't a problem as a power increase, characters randomly got stronger all the time when they probably shouldn't have which is a fact. The problem with Freeza gaining so much power so quickly and (apparently) very easily destroys his whole fear of the Super Saiyan's. He has no reason to fear one! He can just torture Dodoria for a couple of hours and he'll murder Super Namek Piccolo tier warriors with a flick in his first, most restrained form.

It takes Freeza's awful, awful, god awful, fucking unbearably awful F characterization and retconning it into everything prior to F itself. It gets even worse if you take into account that Freeza apparently got pissed off at Beerus one time and got his ass handed to him. Why wouldn't he train to fight Beerus then? He's so petty he wouldn't tolerate anyone being stronger than him regardless if they were a Saiyan or not.

So yeah, the power increase as a power increase is fine if you actually bother to remember the rest of Dragon Ball (just look at Piccolo's insane power increases) but what it does to Freeza's character is pretty damn unforgivable the way its handled. If the new material was after EoZ and Freeza was revived during the 10 years in-between Kid Boo dying & Oob appearing then spent over a decade training, it would work a lot better. Hell, I'd even take what everyone else was spouting about how "Champa totally trained Freeza!" over the bullshit we have now.

How ironic that the movie that's supposed to be Freeza's Empire Strikes Back essentially destroys anything appealing about him.

I see were your coming from. I only partially have a problem with it. His fear of SSJs was due to their numbers and he solved the problem efficiently. Better to wait a month in a space ship, than to do unnecessary training(thinking about Minus here).

Beerus was dimensions above Freeza, I think the tyrant never imagined he could catch up to him. Remember, he heard Goku had defeated Majin Boo. That's was the objective, to be stronger than someone who defeated Boo. That's still doesn't compare with Beerus. And the power Freeza actually got, still puts him decently behind the God of Destruction.

So that leaves us with his first attempt at revenge. That's what I have a problem with. I guess he's body was such a mess, he couldn't train properly. Or he believed his mechanic enhancements, his father and a bit of arrogant delusion would be enough.

[ekrolo2]

The power increase isn't a problem as a power increase, characters randomly got stronger all the time when they probably shouldn't have which is a fact. The problem with Freeza gaining so much power so quickly and (apparently) very easily destroys his whole fear of the Super Saiyan's. He has no reason to fear one! He can just torture Dodoria for a couple of hours and he'll murder Super Namek Piccolo tier warriors with a flick in his first, most restrained form.

It takes Freeza's awful, awful, god awful, fucking unbearably awful F characterization and retconning it into everything prior to F itself. It gets even worse if you take into account that Freeza apparently got pissed off at Beerus one time and got his ass handed to him. Why wouldn't he train to fight Beerus then? He's so petty he wouldn't tolerate anyone being stronger than him regardless if they were a Saiyan or not.

So yeah, the power increase as a power increase is fine if you actually bother to remember the rest of Dragon Ball (just look at Piccolo's insane power increases) but what it does to Freeza's character is pretty damn unforgivable the way its handled. If the new material was after EoZ and Freeza was revived during the 10 years in-between Kid Boo dying & Oob appearing then spent over a decade training, it would work a lot better. Hell, I'd even take what everyone else was spouting about how "Champa totally trained Freeza!" over the bullshit we have now.

How ironic that the movie that's supposed to be Freeza's Empire Strikes Back essentially destroys anything appealing about him.

I see were your coming from. I only partially have a problem with it. His fear of SSJs was due to their numbers and he solved the problem efficiently. Better to wait a month in a space ship, than to do unnecessary training(thinking about Minus here).

Beerus was dimensions above Freeza, I think the tyrant never imagined he could catch up to him. Remember, he heard Goku had defeated Majin Boo. That's was the objective, to be stronger than someone who defeated Boo. That's still doesn't compare with Beerus. And the power Freeza actually got, still puts him decently behind the God of Destruction.

So that leaves us with his first attempt at revenge. That's what I have a problem with. I guess he's body was such a mess, he couldn't train properly. Or he believed his mechanic enhancements, his father and a bit of arrogant delusion would be enough.

Still, Freeza has no reason to fear them regardless of their numbers, he's aware he never trained before and after his thrashing from Beerus it's hard for me to accept he wouldn't just do anything about the power gap. Heck, Freeza doesn't know how strong Boo is in relation to anyone, only a vague warning from his father not to cross him based (likely) on superstitious rumors and over blown legends.