Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supercat]

Look at the anime and manga, i would go with the following:

ssj1-3 and opponents of this tier r slightly higher than they were in the buu saga.

Ssg and Ssgss are another realm of power(as shown in the manga and vs Jiren)

Again, why would Goku and Vegeta after training with Whis all this time only be slightly higher compared to the Buu Saga and all their gains come from transformations? Not even the manga supports this since Beerus told Goku back in Battle of Gods that he was weaker than true form Freeza and Goku in the later manga chapter didn't faint when Shin and the other Supreme Kais did, who far surpasses true form Freeza from Namek.

The anime definition don't support this since base form Copy-Vegeta no sold Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and before than base form Goku fought Monaka-Beerus when Beerus in Battle of Gods two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Using just Resurrection 'F', the movie, Piccolo said that all of them together stood no chance against first form Freeze, yet Piccolo by himself should be strong or stronger than Perfect Cell, yet Goku in his base was superior to true from Freeze. So how can Goku's base form based on that be exactly the same as it was in the Buu Saga?

I agree with HeroR. Not to mention, Base Gohan alone was stronger than Piccolo, who by that point should be Perfect Cell level on the low end. Give Gohan a 50x Boost, and you have him close to his ultimate incarnation from the Buu saga.

Base Goku and Vegeta are far above that after their training with Whis. This is further shown when Copy Vegeta in his mere base form casually defeats SSJ3 Gotenks. Now before people go into the whole "SSJ3 Gotenks got weaker" argument, let's not forget to remind ourselves that such a statement was never once said nor implied. And going off of how easily Copy Base Vegeta won against SSJ3 Gotenks, it's safe to assume at the least that Base Saiyans > Buuhan at this point. But since there's also the Final Form Frieza vs Base Goku to go off of, I'd say it's more likely that Base Saiyans far surpassed SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) by RoF.

A possible retcon is also quite unlikely, as we would have heard about such a thing taking place. I don't know why people can't seem to accept that the Buu saga is now far surpassed, and even the strongest of said saga is a mere fodder among some of the weaker fighters now. This is Dragon Ball, where previously established benchmarks are often turned into jokes the very next saga. Nothing new here.

[Shlugo]

The return of Freeza arc would make no sense if we assume that Goku and Vegeta are only slightly stronger than in Buu saga. Z fighters were absolutely helpless even against first form Freeza without them, so unless Piccolo was somehow much weaker than back on Namek, it must mean that Goku and Vegeta were far above their Buu saga levels.

[supercat]

The return of Freeza arc would make no sense if we assume that Goku and Vegeta are only slightly stronger than in Buu saga. Z fighters were absolutely helpless even against first form Freeza without them, so unless Piccolo was somehow much weaker than back on Namek, it must mean that Goku and Vegeta were far above their Buu saga levels.

First Form Frieza >>> SSJ Gohan, who is 50x stronger than Base Gohan > Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell. Then you have Base Goku tangling with Final Form Frieza. I have something like this for the RoF saga:

Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza >>>>> First Form Frieza >>> Ultimate Gohan > / = SSJ Gohan > Ginyu > Tagoma = Super Buu > Base Gohan > Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell.

Both statements and feats strongly support this. The whole, Piccolo was tired or got weaker thing was never really stated, so it really doesn't have much weight over Base Gohan > Piccolo.

[Marlowe89]

So, with the recent anime & manga stuff, I've noticed a bit of a difference between how each views Blue. In the manga, Beerus seems to refer to it as a mere powered up SSGod rather than a significant improvement over it. Meaning it's probably not much stronger than God, potentially as low as twice as strong in its unmastered state. The anime, however, seems to keep the whole "It's a SSGods SS form" trait by having Blue act as substantially stronger then SSGod. God warranted only a finger from Jiren whereas Blue necessitated an actual fight.

In the manga, they referred to it as the "next level" above God which is pretty much how the anime defines it. The difference is that the manga has two versions of Blue, an unmastered state (as you put it), and a complete version that can output 100% of its strength consistently. There really isn't such a drastic difference across mediums when you account for the fact that the anime's Blue simply doesn't have a power drain, so it was always destined to become just as impressive as whatever we're seeing from the manga's Blue at full power.

One interesting thing I noticed -- Goku dissipated his aura almost immediately after transforming into Super Saiyan Blue against Jiren, only using it again whenever activating Kaioken. I know that this likely doesn't mean anything in-universe since Blue comparatively has much less crippling drawbacks in the anime, but it could be seen as a sort of nod to the manga's approach and might even foreshadow something similar in that adaptation.

[dbgtFO]

One interesting thing I noticed -- Goku dissipated his aura almost immediately after transforming into Super Saiyan Blue against Jiren, only using it again whenever activating Kaioken. I know that this likely doesn't mean anything in-universe since Blue comparatively has much less crippling drawbacks in the anime, but it could be seen as a sort of nod to the manga's approach and might even foreshadow something similar in that adaptation.

That probably primarily happened to make it easier to animate. They do it for all his forms from time to time(most famously in episode 5) and I always just saw it as a time saving measure. They even did it, when Goku got angry vs Black and Zamasu.

[dragon boss z]

The return of Freeza arc would make no sense if we assume that Goku and Vegeta are only slightly stronger than in Buu saga. Z fighters were absolutely helpless even against first form Freeza without them, so unless Piccolo was somehow much weaker than back on Namek, it must mean that Goku and Vegeta were far above their Buu saga levels.

First Form Frieza >>> SSJ Gohan, who is 50x stronger than Base Gohan > Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell. Then you have Base Goku tangling with Final Form Frieza. I have something like this for the RoF saga:

Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza >>>>> First Form Frieza >>> Ultimate Gohan > / = SSJ Gohan > Ginyu > Tagoma = Super Buu > Base Gohan > Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell.

Both statements and feats strongly support this. The whole, Piccolo was tired or got weaker thing was never really stated, so it really doesn't have much weight over Base Gohan > Piccolo.

Piccolo was nerfed in the RoF saga. When Krillin was in trouble both base Gohan and Piccolo were blocked by random Frieza soldiers. Ya, I don't see that happening to Cell, or even first form Frieza on namek, lol. It's just terrible writing. I'm almost certain RoF Gohan was supposed to be comparable to Namek Gohan, probably a bit above. He pretty much flat out compares himself to Goku in the movie version and only he and namek Goku have trouble going ssj. And Piccolo shouldn't be weaker than base Gohan because in ep 30 when we see them fighting Gohan was tired but Piccolo wasn't. And Goku wanted to pick Piccolo over Gohanf or the tournament, implying Piccolo>Gohan's max power. Which again conflicts with the RoF arc and is just bad writing again.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The return of Freeza arc would make no sense if we assume that Goku and Vegeta are only slightly stronger than in Buu saga. Z fighters were absolutely helpless even against first form Freeza without them, so unless Piccolo was somehow much weaker than back on Namek, it must mean that Goku and Vegeta were far above their Buu saga levels.

First Form Frieza >>> SSJ Gohan, who is 50x stronger than Base Gohan > Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell. Then you have Base Goku tangling with Final Form Frieza. I have something like this for the RoF saga:

Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza >>>>> First Form Frieza >>> Ultimate Gohan > / = SSJ Gohan > Ginyu > Tagoma = Super Buu > Base Gohan > Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell.

Both statements and feats strongly support this. The whole, Piccolo was tired or got weaker thing was never really stated, so it really doesn't have much weight over Base Gohan > Piccolo.

Piccolo was nerfed in the RoF saga. When Krillin was in trouble both base Gohan and Piccolo were blocked by random Frieza soldiers. Ya, I don't see that happening to Cell, or even first form Frieza on namek, lol. It's just terrible writing. I'm almost certain RoF Gohan was supposed to be comparable to Namek Gohan, probably a bit above. He pretty much flat out compares himself to Goku in the movie version and only he and namek Goku have trouble going ssj. And Piccolo shouldn't be weaker than base Gohan because in ep 30 when we see them fighting Gohan was tired but Piccolo wasn't. And Goku wanted to pick Piccolo over Gohanf or the tournament, implying Piccolo>Gohan's max power. Which again conflicts with the RoF arc and is just bad writing again.

This post makes a lot of assumptions and makes up certain claims. For example, the assumption that Piccolo simply was nerfed in terms of actual power is laughable at best to dishonest, considering that the series makes no inclinations to wards such a conclusion. Being held off by Freeza soldiers isn't any kind of indication of actual strength because the scene isn't presented as such, it's presented as the Freeza soldiers blocking the paths of the other Z-Warriors to isolate Krillin, nothing strength-related.

As well, Gohan was extraordinarily low in power level during the Namek Saga, lower than Goku's own base form, and was only a child whom couldn't go Super Saiyan at all; this scene most likely is simply referring to the context of going Super Saiyan and the events that transpired on Namek in general. The context of other scenes imply that Gohan was either above Piccolo in base form or his SS form was superior by leaps and bounds; both achieve the same end result.

As well, the Universe 6 & 7 Tournament took place several months after the events of , during which Piccolo was retraining Gohan and was soundly in better condition whilst fighting him Gohan's base form. Not to mention that Goku actually wanted to take on Gohan over Piccolo in the anime version of events, and Gohan only declined because he had a meeting to attend to on the day of the tournament.

[dragon boss z]

This post makes a lot of assumptions and makes up certain claims.

I made assumptions, but I didn't make up anything and claim it as a fact.

For example, the assumption that Piccolo simply was nerfed in terms of actual power is laughable at best to dishonest, considering that the series makes no inclinations to wards such a conclusion. Being held off by Freeza soldiers isn't any kind of indication of actual strength because the scene isn't presented as such, it's presented as the Freeza soldiers blocking the paths of the other Z-Warriors to isolate Krillin, nothing strength-related.

And Frieza soldiers shouldn't have the ability to block anyone that strong. And even if you ignore that scene as PIS, Piccolo got stomped by Tagoma who was Zarbon level just 4 months earlier, who was just said to be above Ginyu level and above current base Gohan (and base saiaysn were already said to be weakr than Frieza). And in the movie he had trouble with Shisami who was also stated to be Zarbon level and there was no line in the movie that said he got stronger, so that would be an assumption on your part. So if you think assumptions shouldn't be used, then Piccolo had trouble with a Zarbon level opponent in RoF.

So far without assumptions we know
base Super Goku is weaker than Frieza
Gohan is weaker than ever in Super and can barely go ssj, so his base being above Goku who can easily go ssj3 makes no sense.
Piccolo is comparable to base Gohan in the RoF arc and stomped by Tagoma, who logically shouldn't of goten stronger than Frieza in 4 months, and there are no statements that he did.

As well, Gohan was extraordinarily low in power level during the Namek Saga, lower than Goku's own base form, and was only a child whom couldn't go Super Saiyan at all; this scene most likely is simply referring to the context of going Super Saiyan and the events that transpired on Namek in general. The context of other scenes imply that Gohan was either above Piccolo in base form or his SS form was superior by leaps and bounds; both achieve the same end result.

Even if Gohan's current ssj is actually still really strong and he just has trouble accessing it, there is no way it was above beginning of Super Goku's, which means neither should his base.

As well, the Universe 6 & 7 Tournament took place several months after the events of , during which Piccolo was retraining Gohan and was soundly in better condition whilst fighting him Gohan's base form.

So are you saying Piccolo made better gains training with Gohan than Gohan did? If Gohan was out of shape, and Piccolo got a boost similar to Gohan, then that would imply Piccolo was also out of shape, which I do think is the case. All we see Piccolo doing pre U6 arc is following Gohan, baby sitting pan, and carrying things for Chi chi.

Not to mention that Goku actually wanted to take on Gohan over Piccolo in the anime version of events, and Gohan only declined because he had a meeting to attend to on the day of the tournament.

When Gohan asked Goku was actually hesitant at first, but when Gohan said he was training again and wanted to do it, then Goku said alright.

Don't think I want to nerf Piccolo. It's the writters doing it not me. Every time Piccolo fights he gets bodied. So it really doesn't matter if Piccolo got weaker or if his opponents are randomly above Buu level. He gets wrecked either way. However if you ask me, if Piccolo gets beaten by a Frieza soldier who was stated to be Zarbon/Dadoria level just 4 months ago and after some training he can beat Piccolo, to me that tells me Piccolo probably got weaker, as it makes no sense for a Frieza soldier to surpass Frieza that quickly. It ruins the narrative of the story. They brought back Frieza because they needed a strong leader, yet Tagoma in 4 months can reach Cell-Buu level? Then why even bring back Frieza?

I'm not saying Piccolo definitely got weaker, but it's no less crazy than a Frieza soldier to get over 10,000 times stronger from just getting beaten up for 4 months. And that's the multiplier Tagoma would of needed just to reach android 17/18 tier.

[supercat]

The return of Freeza arc would make no sense if we assume that Goku and Vegeta are only slightly stronger than in Buu saga. Z fighters were absolutely helpless even against first form Freeza without them, so unless Piccolo was somehow much weaker than back on Namek, it must mean that Goku and Vegeta were far above their Buu saga levels.

First Form Frieza >>> SSJ Gohan, who is 50x stronger than Base Gohan > Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell. Then you have Base Goku tangling with Final Form Frieza. I have something like this for the RoF saga:

Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza >>>>> First Form Frieza >>> Ultimate Gohan > / = SSJ Gohan > Ginyu > Tagoma = Super Buu > Base Gohan > Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell.

Both statements and feats strongly support this. The whole, Piccolo was tired or got weaker thing was never really stated, so it really doesn't have much weight over Base Gohan > Piccolo.

Piccolo was nerfed in the RoF saga. When Krillin was in trouble both base Gohan and Piccolo were blocked by random Frieza soldiers. Ya, I don't see that happening to Cell, or even first form Frieza on namek, lol. It's just terrible writing. I'm almost certain RoF Gohan was supposed to be comparable to Namek Gohan, probably a bit above. He pretty much flat out compares himself to Goku in the movie version and only he and namek Goku have trouble going ssj. And Piccolo shouldn't be weaker than base Gohan because in ep 30 when we see them fighting Gohan was tired but Piccolo wasn't. And Goku wanted to pick Piccolo over Gohanf or the tournament, implying Piccolo>Gohan's max power. Which again conflicts with the RoF arc and is just bad writing again.

Assumptions, speculations, and more evidence-lacking theories.

Nothing was ever mentioned about Piccolo being nerfed. If such a thing took place, it would have been elaborated on, much akin to how Gohan talked about his lack of training.

Sorbet took down Goku, Roshi gave Frost some trouble and managed to get him to back off, and few other things similar in nature, that I don't feel like listing, were scattered throughout the series. You being almost certain about something based off of nothing but theories and speculations doesn't hold much weight.

Also, we're not talking about the movie version here, and even so, Gohan was likely referring to the drive Goku put in towards his battle against Frieza.

During their brief training session after RoF, Base Gohan and Piccolo were presumably even. At most, Piccolo may have held a slight advantage, but that could also be because Piccolo was unweighted and had been training with Gohan, a superior training partner.

Goku wanted to pick Piccolo over Gohan? No way.

I've done nothing but present actual statements along with feats, so until you could do the same, I'm going to have a hard time agreeing with you.

[dragon boss z]

Assumptions, speculations,

that's most things on here though... not to mention the point of this thread... If everything was a fact what's the point of saying anything here?

and more evidence-lacking theories.

Ok, just ignore all the evidence I provided.

Nothing was ever mentioned about Piccolo being nerfed. If such a thing took place, it would have been elaborated on, much akin to how Gohan talked about his lack of training.

Imo the writers legit forgot how strong Piccolo was, which is the stem of the problem. Piccolo getting weaker is my head canon. The out of universe explanation is the writers don't know what they are doing. These are the same writers who had Frieza said he would reach a power level of 1.3 million after 4 months of training even though Frieza stated he had a power level of over 1 million in his second form. So if they can't even make sense of the numbers that are laid out for them already, what makes you think they can properly power scale things that haven't been stated? Even toriyama forget ssj2 existed. Trust me when I say these writers can't be trusted to power scale.

Sorbet took down Goku,

Cheap shot, PIS, and shouldn't of happened imo.

Roshi gave Frost some trouble and managed to get him to back off, and few other things similar in nature, that I don't feel like listing, were scattered throughout the series. You being almost certain about something based off of nothing but theories and speculations doesn't hold much weight.

Ya, all of that stems from bad writing.

Also, we're not talking about the movie version here, and even so, Gohan was likely referring to the drive Goku put in towards his battle against Frieza.

Gohan said "It took my dad everything he had to beat Frieza on Namek, and now Frieza has powered up to a whole new level, I can't win". So he implied he can't beat someone who is a lot stronger than ssj namek Goku. There is really no other way to take that. I guess you could just call it a throw away line.

During their brief training session after RoF, Base Gohan and Piccolo were presumably even. At most, Piccolo may have held a slight advantage, but that could also be because Piccolo was unweighted and had been training with Gohan, a superior training partner.

Again that only proves my theory. Piccolo would have to have gotten weaker to be base Gohan tier. Base Gohan in the Cell games was weaker than Piccolo, so I fail to see how a weaker version of Gohan would have a base stronger than Piccolo if Piccolo was the same strength as before. It doesn't add up.

Goku wanted to pick Piccolo over Gohan? No way.

Except this is heavily implied to be the case.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Even more so in the english dub. When Gohan asked to join Goku said "uh... I don't know what to say" lmao.

I've done nothing but present actual statements along with feats, so until you could do the same, I'm going to have a hard time agreeing with you.

I already gave feats and statements
-Piccolo couldn't get past Frieza grunts to save Krillin
-in the movie Piccolo had trouble with Shisami
-in Super he got stomped by Tagoma who got stomped by a weakened ssj Gohan
-he got one shot by first form Frieza
-he has trouble against a base Gohan who should be weaker than the base Goku stated to be weaker than Frieza
-18 implied she was stronger than everyone who went to fight Frieza
[spoiler][/spoiler]
And in response Krillin says it reassures him Majin Buu and Gohan are with him, but he didn't mention Piccolo.

[dragon boss z]

Assumptions, speculations,

that's most things on here though... not to mention the point of this thread... If everything was a fact what's the point of saying anything here?

and more evidence-lacking theories.

Ok, just ignore all the evidence I provided.

Nothing was ever mentioned about Piccolo being nerfed. If such a thing took place, it would have been elaborated on, much akin to how Gohan talked about his lack of training.

Imo the writers legit forgot how strong Piccolo was, which is the stem of the problem. Piccolo getting weaker is my head canon. The out of universe explanation is the writers don't know what they are doing. These are the same writers who had Frieza said he would reach a power level of 1.3 million after 4 months of training even though Frieza stated he had a power level of over 1 million in his second form. So if they can't even make sense of the numbers that are laid out for them already, what makes you think they can properly power scale things that haven't been stated? Even toriyama forget ssj2 existed. Trust me when I say these writers can't be trusted to power scale.

Sorbet took down Goku,

Cheap shot, PIS, and shouldn't of happened imo.

Roshi gave Frost some trouble and managed to get him to back off, and few other things similar in nature, that I don't feel like listing, were scattered throughout the series. You being almost certain about something based off of nothing but theories and speculations doesn't hold much weight.

Ya, all of that stems from bad writing.

Also, we're not talking about the movie version here, and even so, Gohan was likely referring to the drive Goku put in towards his battle against Frieza.

Gohan said "It took my dad everything he had to beat Frieza on Namek, and now Frieza has powered up to a whole new level, I can't win". So he implied he can't beat someone who is a lot stronger than ssj namek Goku. There is really no other way to take that. I guess you could just call it a throw away line.

During their brief training session after RoF, Base Gohan and Piccolo were presumably even. At most, Piccolo may have held a slight advantage, but that could also be because Piccolo was unweighted and had been training with Gohan, a superior training partner.

Again that only proves my theory. Piccolo would have to have gotten weaker to be base Gohan tier. Base Gohan in the Cell games was weaker than Piccolo, so I fail to see how a weaker version of Gohan would have a base stronger than Piccolo if Piccolo was the same strength as before. It doesn't add up.

Goku wanted to pick Piccolo over Gohan? No way.

Except this is heavily implied to be the case.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Even more so in the english dub. When Gohan asked to join Goku said "uh... I don't know what to say" lmao.

I've done nothing but present actual statements along with feats, so until you could do the same, I'm going to have a hard time agreeing with you.

I already gave feats and statements
-Piccolo couldn't get past Frieza grunts to save Krillin
-in the movie Piccolo had trouble with Shisami
-in Super he got stomped by Tagoma who got stomped by a weakened ssj Gohan
-he got one shot by first form Frieza
-he has trouble against a base Gohan who should be weaker than the base Goku stated to be weaker than Frieza
-18 implied she was stronger than everyone who went to fight Frieza.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[pacz360]

Current tier list TOP edition
Top tier:
Jiren
UI goku
Ssjbkkx20 goku, Hit (time lock)
Ssjb kk x10 goku
Ssjb kk goku, FP toppo
High tier
Ssjb goku
Hit
Ssjb vegeta
Golden freeza
Base toppo
Mid blue tier/current ssjg tier
Ultimate gohan
Beserker kale
Dyspo
17
Maji kayo
Obuni
Ssjg goku
Current ssj/2/3 tier
Ssj3 goku
Ssj2 goku/vegeta
Ssj2 caulifla
Ssj2 cabba
Monna
Ssj goku,ssj vegeta, Magetta
Kakusuna
Ssj caulifla
Ssj cabba
Frost (final form)
Ony doing relevant tiers

[TAF108]

Look at the anime and manga, i would go with the following:

ssj1-3 and opponents of this tier r slightly higher than they were in the buu saga.

Ssg and Ssgss are another realm of power(as shown in the manga and vs Jiren)

Again, why would Goku and Vegeta after training with Whis all this time only be slightly higher compared to the Buu Saga and all their gains come from transformations? Not even the manga supports this since Beerus told Goku back in Battle of Gods that he was weaker than true form Freeza and Goku in the later manga chapter didn't faint when Shin and the other Supreme Kais did, who far surpasses true form Freeza from Namek.

The anime definition don't support this since base form Copy-Vegeta no sold Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and before than base form Goku fought Monaka-Beerus when Beerus in Battle of Gods two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Using just Resurrection 'F', the movie, Piccolo said that all of them together stood no chance against first form Freeze, yet Piccolo by himself should be strong or stronger than Perfect Cell, yet Goku in his base was superior to true from Freeze. So how can Goku's base form based on that be exactly the same as it was in the Buu Saga?

I agree with HeroR. Not to mention, Base Gohan alone was stronger than Piccolo, who by that point should be Perfect Cell level on the low end. Give Gohan a 50x Boost, and you have him close to his ultimate incarnation from the Buu saga.

Base Goku and Vegeta are far above that after their training with Whis. This is further shown when Copy Vegeta in his mere base form casually defeats SSJ3 Gotenks. Now before people go into the whole "SSJ3 Gotenks got weaker" argument, let's not forget to remind ourselves that such a statement was never once said nor implied. And going off of how easily Copy Base Vegeta won against SSJ3 Gotenks, it's safe to assume at the least that Base Saiyans > Buuhan at this point. But since there's also the Final Form Frieza vs Base Goku to go off of, I'd say it's more likely that Base Saiyans far surpassed SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) by RoF.

A possible retcon is also quite unlikely, as we would have heard about such a thing taking place. I don't know why people can't seem to accept that the Buu saga is now far surpassed, and even the strongest of said saga is a mere fodder among some of the weaker fighters now. This is Dragon Ball, where previously established benchmarks are often turned into jokes the very next saga. Nothing new here.

We now for a fact that RoF Gohan can't be anywhere near Ultimate Gohan, as he didn't regain that level of strength until episode 88 when he became Ultimate Gohan again.

Keep in mind that Gohan did a ton of training with Piccolo between RoF and the Zen Exhibition match. with significant improvement from both a visual and statement standpoint. Yet he was still nowhere near his Ultimate power, to the point where Goku complained that he wasn't as powerful as he used to be and that he should've mopped the floor with Lavenda.

And then there's the discussion of Piccolo's strength. I'm fine with saying he should be as strong as Cell by that point, but should isn't really the same as is. As far as we know, Piccolo didn't surpass SSJ2 until he choking out Gohan, something that surprised Gohan greatly. If anything, I'd say his gains post Cell arc remained static due to plot for almost 14 years.

What you're saying is something like Ultimate Gohan (88) = Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ2 Gohan (Zen) > Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ Gohan (Zen) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo = Perfect Cell?_

I know that sounds a bit contrived, but let's put numbers to it so you'll get what I mean. Piccolo is equal to Cell in this scenario (which is, in your opinion, a low ball.), which makes him a 1. For simplicity, we'll say he and Base Gohan (RoF) are equal. Now, if we use the 50x we get 50 for RoF Gohan. Then we move onto Ultimate Gohan. If we say MSSJ Goku (Boo Saga) is a 1 (same strength as Perfect Cell), then SSJ2 Goku is a 2, SSJ3 Goku is a 8, and if we say Ultimate Gohan is ten times that, he's an 80. Now if we get into Zen Gohan, if we massively lowball and say he's the same strength, then he's a 50 as an SSJ, and then 100 as an SSJ2. Yet his Ultimate form has to be 80 (same as the Boo Saga), see the problem?

Basically you're purposing this.
Piccolo-1.
Perfect Cell-1
Base Gohan (RoF)-1.
MSSJ Goku-1
SSJ2 Goku-2
SSJ3 Goku-8
SSJ Gohan(RoF)-50.
SSJ Gohan (Zen)-50.
SSJ2 Gohan (Zen)-100.
Ultimate Gohan (88 = Boo Saga)-80.

And that's being conservative with the numbers, as obviously Zen Gohan would be far superior to his RoF counterpart. So how do you explain this discrepancy in how the numbers add up? I only really have that to say about the Gohan stuff.

[HeroR]

We now for a fact that RoF Gohan can't be anywhere near Ultimate Gohan, as he didn't regain that level of strength until episode 88 when he became Ultimate Gohan again.

Keep in mind that Gohan did a ton of training with Piccolo between RoF and the Zen Exhibition match. with significant improvement from both a visual and statement standpoint. Yet he was still nowhere near his Ultimate power, to the point where Goku complained that he wasn't as powerful as he used to be and that he should've mopped the floor with Lavenda.

And then there's the discussion of Piccolo's strength. I'm fine with saying he should be as strong as Cell by that point, but should isn't really the same as is. As far as we know, Piccolo didn't surpass SSJ2 until he choking out Gohan, something that surprised Gohan greatly. If anything, I'd say his gains post Cell arc remained static due to plot for almost 14 years.

What you're saying is something like Ultimate Gohan (88) = Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ2 Gohan (Zen) > Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ Gohan (Zen) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo = Perfect Cell?_

I know that sounds a bit contrived, but let's put numbers to it so you'll get what I mean. Piccolo is equal to Cell in this scenario (which is, in your opinion, a low ball.), which makes him a 1. For simplicity, we'll say he and Base Gohan (RoF) are equal. Now, if we use the 50x we get 50 for RoF Gohan. Then we move onto Ultimate Gohan. If we say MSSJ Goku (Boo Saga) is a 1 (same strength as Perfect Cell), then SSJ2 Goku is a 2, SSJ3 Goku is a 8, and if we say Ultimate Gohan is ten times that, he's an 80. Now if we get into Zen Gohan, if we massively lowball and say he's the same strength, then he's a 50 as an SSJ, and then 100 as an SSJ2. Yet his Ultimate form has to be 80 (same as the Boo Saga), see the problem?

Basically you're purposing this.
Piccolo-1.
Perfect Cell-1
Base Gohan (RoF)-1.
MSSJ Goku-1
SSJ2 Goku-2
SSJ3 Goku-8
SSJ Gohan(RoF)-50.
SSJ Gohan (Zen)-50.
SSJ2 Gohan (Zen)-100.
Ultimate Gohan (88 = Boo Saga)-80.

And that's being conservative with the numbers, as obviously Zen Gohan would be far superior to his RoF counterpart. So how do you explain this discrepancy in how the numbers add up? I only really have that to say about the Gohan stuff.

The show never said that Gohan's power returning in 88 was exactly where it was back in the Buu Saga, especially when rusty base form Gohan was equal to stronger to Piccolo who was probably stronger than Perfect Cell as a lowball. It was all about getting back his former glory in his greatest form. To think Gohan wasn't near Ultimate before 88, you have to wanked Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan to some heights.

Actually, what Goku said was that Gohan wasn't as good as he could have been, not as he used to be. Especially there were a lot of talk about Gohan lacking his fighting sense, which isn't directly related to strength.

Super Saiyan 2 isn't a level. Piccolo and base form Gohan were comparable to each other with Gohan being presented as stronger. So that Gohan would already be way ahead of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games since that Gohan had a base form much weaker than true from Freeza according to Beerus who called Battle of Gods Saga Goku's base form weaker than Freeza.

Saying that the gains from post Cell arc remained static is also wrong because it was said back in the Buu Saga that Piccolo was stronger than he was before.

What we're are saying is Ultimate Gohan in 88 was stronger than is Buu Saga counterpart since the show never said that Gohan was exactly the same power he was in the Buu Saga, only gaining back his former and strongest form.

[pacz360]

We now for a fact that RoF Gohan can't be anywhere near Ultimate Gohan, as he didn't regain that level of strength until episode 88 when he became Ultimate Gohan again.

Keep in mind that Gohan did a ton of training with Piccolo between RoF and the Zen Exhibition match. with significant improvement from both a visual and statement standpoint. Yet he was still nowhere near his Ultimate power, to the point where Goku complained that he wasn't as powerful as he used to be and that he should've mopped the floor with Lavenda.

And then there's the discussion of Piccolo's strength. I'm fine with saying he should be as strong as Cell by that point, but should isn't really the same as is. As far as we know, Piccolo didn't surpass SSJ2 until he choking out Gohan, something that surprised Gohan greatly. If anything, I'd say his gains post Cell arc remained static due to plot for almost 14 years.

What you're saying is something like Ultimate Gohan (88) = Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ2 Gohan (Zen) > Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ Gohan (Zen) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo = Perfect Cell?_

I know that sounds a bit contrived, but let's put numbers to it so you'll get what I mean. Piccolo is equal to Cell in this scenario (which is, in your opinion, a low ball.), which makes him a 1. For simplicity, we'll say he and Base Gohan (RoF) are equal. Now, if we use the 50x we get 50 for RoF Gohan. Then we move onto Ultimate Gohan. If we say MSSJ Goku (Boo Saga) is a 1 (same strength as Perfect Cell), then SSJ2 Goku is a 2, SSJ3 Goku is a 8, and if we say Ultimate Gohan is ten times that, he's an 80. Now if we get into Zen Gohan, if we massively lowball and say he's the same strength, then he's a 50 as an SSJ, and then 100 as an SSJ2. Yet his Ultimate form has to be 80 (same as the Boo Saga), see the problem?

Basically you're purposing this.
Piccolo-1.
Perfect Cell-1
Base Gohan (RoF)-1.
MSSJ Goku-1
SSJ2 Goku-2
SSJ3 Goku-8
SSJ Gohan(RoF)-50.
SSJ Gohan (Zen)-50.
SSJ2 Gohan (Zen)-100.
Ultimate Gohan (88 = Boo Saga)-80.

And that's being conservative with the numbers, as obviously Zen Gohan would be far superior to his RoF counterpart. So how do you explain this discrepancy in how the numbers add up? I only really have that to say about the Gohan stuff.

The show never said that Gohan's power returning in 88 was exactly where it was back in the Buu Saga, especially when rusty base form Gohan was equal to stronger to Piccolo who was probably stronger than Perfect Cell as a lowball. It was all about getting back his former glory in his greatest form. To think Gohan wasn't near Ultimate before 88, you have to wanked Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan to some heights.

Actually, what Goku said was that Gohan wasn't as good as he could have been, not as he used to be. Especially there were a lot of talk about Gohan lacking his fighting sense, which isn't directly related to strength.

Super Saiyan 2 isn't a level. Piccolo and base form Gohan were comparable to each other with Gohan being presented as stronger. So that Gohan would already be way ahead of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games since that Gohan had a base form much weaker than true from Freeza according to Beerus who called Battle of Gods Saga Goku's base form weaker than Freeza.

Saying that the gains from post Cell arc remained static is also wrong because it was said back in the Buu Saga that Piccolo was stronger than he was before.

What we're are saying is Ultimate Gohan in 88 was stronger than is Buu Saga counterpart since the show never said that Gohan was exactly the same power he was in the Buu Saga, only gaining back his former and strongest form.

Mind listing the key quotes? Not disagreeing with you just want to know

[HeroR]

We now for a fact that RoF Gohan can't be anywhere near Ultimate Gohan, as he didn't regain that level of strength until episode 88 when he became Ultimate Gohan again.

Keep in mind that Gohan did a ton of training with Piccolo between RoF and the Zen Exhibition match. with significant improvement from both a visual and statement standpoint. Yet he was still nowhere near his Ultimate power, to the point where Goku complained that he wasn't as powerful as he used to be and that he should've mopped the floor with Lavenda.

And then there's the discussion of Piccolo's strength. I'm fine with saying he should be as strong as Cell by that point, but should isn't really the same as is. As far as we know, Piccolo didn't surpass SSJ2 until he choking out Gohan, something that surprised Gohan greatly. If anything, I'd say his gains post Cell arc remained static due to plot for almost 14 years.

What you're saying is something like Ultimate Gohan (88) = Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ2 Gohan (Zen) > Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ Gohan (Zen) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo = Perfect Cell?_

I know that sounds a bit contrived, but let's put numbers to it so you'll get what I mean. Piccolo is equal to Cell in this scenario (which is, in your opinion, a low ball.), which makes him a 1. For simplicity, we'll say he and Base Gohan (RoF) are equal. Now, if we use the 50x we get 50 for RoF Gohan. Then we move onto Ultimate Gohan. If we say MSSJ Goku (Boo Saga) is a 1 (same strength as Perfect Cell), then SSJ2 Goku is a 2, SSJ3 Goku is a 8, and if we say Ultimate Gohan is ten times that, he's an 80. Now if we get into Zen Gohan, if we massively lowball and say he's the same strength, then he's a 50 as an SSJ, and then 100 as an SSJ2. Yet his Ultimate form has to be 80 (same as the Boo Saga), see the problem?

Basically you're purposing this.
Piccolo-1.
Perfect Cell-1
Base Gohan (RoF)-1.
MSSJ Goku-1
SSJ2 Goku-2
SSJ3 Goku-8
SSJ Gohan(RoF)-50.
SSJ Gohan (Zen)-50.
SSJ2 Gohan (Zen)-100.
Ultimate Gohan (88 = Boo Saga)-80.

And that's being conservative with the numbers, as obviously Zen Gohan would be far superior to his RoF counterpart. So how do you explain this discrepancy in how the numbers add up? I only really have that to say about the Gohan stuff.

The show never said that Gohan's power returning in 88 was exactly where it was back in the Buu Saga, especially when rusty base form Gohan was equal to stronger to Piccolo who was probably stronger than Perfect Cell as a lowball. It was all about getting back his former glory in his greatest form. To think Gohan wasn't near Ultimate before 88, you have to wanked Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan to some heights.

Actually, what Goku said was that Gohan wasn't as good as he could have been, not as he used to be. Especially there were a lot of talk about Gohan lacking his fighting sense, which isn't directly related to strength.

Super Saiyan 2 isn't a level. Piccolo and base form Gohan were comparable to each other with Gohan being presented as stronger. So that Gohan would already be way ahead of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games since that Gohan had a base form much weaker than true from Freeza according to Beerus who called Battle of Gods Saga Goku's base form weaker than Freeza.

Saying that the gains from post Cell arc remained static is also wrong because it was said back in the Buu Saga that Piccolo was stronger than he was before.

What we're are saying is Ultimate Gohan in 88 was stronger than is Buu Saga counterpart since the show never said that Gohan was exactly the same power he was in the Buu Saga, only gaining back his former and strongest form.

Mind listing the key quotes? Not disagreeing with you just want to know

I don't feel like going through the episode right now, but I will try to get the proper quotes.

[TAF108]

We now for a fact that RoF Gohan can't be anywhere near Ultimate Gohan, as he didn't regain that level of strength until episode 88 when he became Ultimate Gohan again.

Keep in mind that Gohan did a ton of training with Piccolo between RoF and the Zen Exhibition match. with significant improvement from both a visual and statement standpoint. Yet he was still nowhere near his Ultimate power, to the point where Goku complained that he wasn't as powerful as he used to be and that he should've mopped the floor with Lavenda.

And then there's the discussion of Piccolo's strength. I'm fine with saying he should be as strong as Cell by that point, but should isn't really the same as is. As far as we know, Piccolo didn't surpass SSJ2 until he choking out Gohan, something that surprised Gohan greatly. If anything, I'd say his gains post Cell arc remained static due to plot for almost 14 years.

What you're saying is something like Ultimate Gohan (88) = Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ2 Gohan (Zen) > Ultimate Gohan (Boo Saga) > SSJ Gohan (Zen) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo = Perfect Cell?_

I know that sounds a bit contrived, but let's put numbers to it so you'll get what I mean. Piccolo is equal to Cell in this scenario (which is, in your opinion, a low ball.), which makes him a 1. For simplicity, we'll say he and Base Gohan (RoF) are equal. Now, if we use the 50x we get 50 for RoF Gohan. Then we move onto Ultimate Gohan. If we say MSSJ Goku (Boo Saga) is a 1 (same strength as Perfect Cell), then SSJ2 Goku is a 2, SSJ3 Goku is a 8, and if we say Ultimate Gohan is ten times that, he's an 80. Now if we get into Zen Gohan, if we massively lowball and say he's the same strength, then he's a 50 as an SSJ, and then 100 as an SSJ2. Yet his Ultimate form has to be 80 (same as the Boo Saga), see the problem?

Basically you're purposing this.
Piccolo-1.
Perfect Cell-1
Base Gohan (RoF)-1.
MSSJ Goku-1
SSJ2 Goku-2
SSJ3 Goku-8
SSJ Gohan(RoF)-50.
SSJ Gohan (Zen)-50.
SSJ2 Gohan (Zen)-100.
Ultimate Gohan (88 = Boo Saga)-80.

And that's being conservative with the numbers, as obviously Zen Gohan would be far superior to his RoF counterpart. So how do you explain this discrepancy in how the numbers add up? I only really have that to say about the Gohan stuff.

The show never said that Gohan's power returning in 88 was exactly where it was back in the Buu Saga, especially when rusty base form Gohan was equal to stronger to Piccolo who was probably stronger than Perfect Cell as a lowball. It was all about getting back his former glory in his greatest form. To think Gohan wasn't near Ultimate before 88, you have to wanked Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan to some heights.

Actually, what Goku said was that Gohan wasn't as good as he could have been, not as he used to be. Especially there were a lot of talk about Gohan lacking his fighting sense, which isn't directly related to strength.

Super Saiyan 2 isn't a level. Piccolo and base form Gohan were comparable to each other with Gohan being presented as stronger. So that Gohan would already be way ahead of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games since that Gohan had a base form much weaker than true from Freeza according to Beerus who called Battle of Gods Saga Goku's base form weaker than Freeza.

Saying that the gains from post Cell arc remained static is also wrong because it was said back in the Buu Saga that Piccolo was stronger than he was before.

What we're are saying is Ultimate Gohan in 88 was stronger than is Buu Saga counterpart since the show never said that Gohan was exactly the same power he was in the Buu Saga, only gaining back his former and strongest form.

The show uses the word power several times. As does the episode preview in the magazine. I'll be sure to include all of the lines of dialogue that explain such.








I plan to post the line, so we'll see what it says. Everything I found explicitly says "original power" or something similar. Do you have subs that say something different?

The transformation itself isn't a level, no. But SSJ2 was a marker of strength for the series, of which I was referring to. Naturally not every SSJ2 is the same strength, it's a transformation, yada yada. I'm just saying the only time we've had visual confirmation of Piccolo being on that level. Beyond just saying he should be that strong.

Let's change static to stagnant, which is what I meant to say originally. Piccolo's gain were comparatively small for 14 years, he was weaker than a weakened Gohan from the Boo Saga, and he was weaker than Gohan in RoF as well despite him being the only one of the two who trained.

I'm saying that goes against what the show was saying. We're clearly meant to take Ultimate Gohan being back as Gohan finally reaching that level of strength again. I'd it's the opposite here. I've laid out how strong Gohan should be based on his Boo Saga showing, I'm just remarking it's contradictory to the show to say the incredibly weakened RoF Gohan is somehow close to him.

From where I stand, implications are definitely that Gohan has not been anywhere near the strength of Ultimate Gohan before episode 88.

I'd also say the show makes several remarks about Gohan's strength, not just his fighting sense. His body is continuously called weak, for example.

[supercat]

Assumptions, speculations,

that's most things on here though... not to mention the point of this thread... If everything was a fact what's the point of saying anything here?

and more evidence-lacking theories.

Ok, just ignore all the evidence I provided.

Nothing was ever mentioned about Piccolo being nerfed. If such a thing took place, it would have been elaborated on, much akin to how Gohan talked about his lack of training.

Imo the writers legit forgot how strong Piccolo was, which is the stem of the problem. Piccolo getting weaker is my head canon. The out of universe explanation is the writers don't know what they are doing. These are the same writers who had Frieza said he would reach a power level of 1.3 million after 4 months of training even though Frieza stated he had a power level of over 1 million in his second form. So if they can't even make sense of the numbers that are laid out for them already, what makes you think they can properly power scale things that haven't been stated? Even toriyama forget ssj2 existed. Trust me when I say these writers can't be trusted to power scale.

Sorbet took down Goku,

Cheap shot, PIS, and shouldn't of happened imo.

Roshi gave Frost some trouble and managed to get him to back off, and few other things similar in nature, that I don't feel like listing, were scattered throughout the series. You being almost certain about something based off of nothing but theories and speculations doesn't hold much weight.

Ya, all of that stems from bad writing.

Also, we're not talking about the movie version here, and even so, Gohan was likely referring to the drive Goku put in towards his battle against Frieza.

Gohan said "It took my dad everything he had to beat Frieza on Namek, and now Frieza has powered up to a whole new level, I can't win". So he implied he can't beat someone who is a lot stronger than ssj namek Goku. There is really no other way to take that. I guess you could just call it a throw away line.

During their brief training session after RoF, Base Gohan and Piccolo were presumably even. At most, Piccolo may have held a slight advantage, but that could also be because Piccolo was unweighted and had been training with Gohan, a superior training partner.

Again that only proves my theory. Piccolo would have to have gotten weaker to be base Gohan tier. Base Gohan in the Cell games was weaker than Piccolo, so I fail to see how a weaker version of Gohan would have a base stronger than Piccolo if Piccolo was the same strength as before. It doesn't add up.

Goku wanted to pick Piccolo over Gohan? No way.

Except this is heavily implied to be the case.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Even more so in the english dub. When Gohan asked to join Goku said "uh... I don't know what to say" lmao.

I've done nothing but present actual statements along with feats, so until you could do the same, I'm going to have a hard time agreeing with you.

I already gave feats and statements
-Piccolo couldn't get past Frieza grunts to save Krillin
-in the movie Piccolo had trouble with Shisami
-in Super he got stomped by Tagoma who got stomped by a weakened ssj Gohan
-he got one shot by first form Frieza
-he has trouble against a base Gohan who should be weaker than the base Goku stated to be weaker than Frieza
-18 implied she was stronger than everyone who went to fight Frieza.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Most of the things that I utilize in debates are actual statements and/or feats. If character a says character b is stronger than character c, we as fans, should really have no reason to doubt it and/or come back with arguments like: "oh, character c was probably tired," or "character c was nerfed." Whether or not the writers forgot about a particular characters place on the power scale is irrelevant, as nothing said contradicted Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell in RoF. If you really want to go with the whole "Frieza force was holding them back" argument, we might as well say Roshi is stronger than Piccolo since he, in his exhausted state, pushed back a fresh Frost, whereas Piccolo couldn't do that a fatigued Frost who wasn't nearly as strong as he was against Roshi.

I don't know what bad writing has to do with statements and feats and the absence of anything contradicting them.

Super has shown plenty of instances where weaker characters briefly stand as a challenge against vastly superior characters, so the Frieza force briefly stopping Piccolo and Gohan is no surprise here.

Why is it that it seems so easy for you to resort to someone regressing, but you have such a hard time accepting characters grow stronger? Again, when Piccolo and Gohan were sparring, they looked equal. Piccolo had probably been training a bit more than Gohan, and that's probably was why he was doing a bit better. This was also unweighted Piccolo. Meaning, it could be something like this:

Piccolo (Unweighted) = Base Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo (weighted)

And um, Goku didn't want to take Gohan because Gohan hadn't been taking combat seriously at that time. When Gohan had voluntarily offered to go, Goku was more than ready to toss Piccolo aside.

So again, I have no reason not to believe:

Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > / = SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Ginyu > Tagoma = Super Buu > Base Gohan (RoF) = unweighted Piccolo > Perfect Cell = weighted Piccolo

In regards to the points you listed:
- I already addressed the Frieza Force blocking Piccolo thing many times above
- Movie RoF and Super are a bit different. There was no Tagoma, so it's quite possible Shisami could have trained. That whole thing is very ambiguous and doesn't really seem to support neither of sides of our debate. Not to mention, Gohan had to go SSJ to defeat Shisami. Also, in the movie there's the whole 1.3 million line, and that was excluded from Super.
- Gohan as a whole was "weakened." His SSJ form was never stated to have gotten weaker. So again, I'm not interested in debating against speculations and made up theories.
- First Form Frieza casually defeating SSJ Gohan should only show how powerful Frieza is, not how weak Gohan is.
- Android 18 didn't specify who she was stronger than, so until we get a direct comparison, I don't find it a valid argument.

[HeroR]

The show uses the word power several times. As does the episode preview in the magazine. I'll be sure to include all of the lines of dialogue that explain such.








I plan to post the line, so we'll see what it says. Everything I found explicitly says "original power" or something similar. Do you have subs that say something different?

The transformation itself isn't a level, no. But SSJ2 was a marker of strength for the series, of which I was referring to. Naturally not every SSJ2 is the same strength, it's a transformation, yada yada. I'm just saying the only time we've had visual confirmation of Piccolo being on that level. Beyond just saying he should be that strong.

Let's change static to stagnant, which is what I meant to say originally. Piccolo's gain were comparatively small for 14 years, he was weaker than a weakened Gohan from the Boo Saga, and he was weaker than Gohan in RoF as well despite him being the only one of the two who trained.

I'm saying that goes against what the show was saying. We're clearly meant to take Ultimate Gohan being back as Gohan finally reaching that level of strength again. I'd it's the opposite here. I've laid out how strong Gohan should be based on his Boo Saga showing, I'm just remarking it's contradictory to the show to say the incredibly weakened RoF Gohan is somehow close to him.

From where I stand, implications are definitely that Gohan has not been anywhere near the strength of Ultimate Gohan before episode 88.

I'd also say the show makes several remarks about Gohan's strength, not just his fighting sense. His body is continuously called weak, for example.

Using the summaries are flawed, so I won't address that.

As for Goku's statement, he's saying considering where he was at his peak, he should be much better than what he is now, not he isn't even as strong as he was several years ago. Piccolo's statement as reads as 'your original strength, which is Ultimate, not Super Saiyan'.

Being a marker of strength doesn't make a different since Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Vegeta were stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan back in the Buu Saga, and Super Saiyan 2 Goku is on a different level from Super Saiyan 2 Buu Saga levels.

That is all assumption that Piccolo gains were comparatively small since we didn't know his growth until 88. The only thing we knew that Buu Saga Piccolo was below Cell, and we don't even know which version of Cell, Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell, since in the manga it's just Cell. Also, Piccolo was weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan, not base form Gohan, because according to Beerus all the Saiyans base forms were below Namek Saga Freeza even in Battle of Gods, who Piccolo far surpassed when he merged with Kami and he got even stronger after he trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. So base form Gohan and Piccolo being even is a huge increase from Buu Saga base from Gohan. Gohan got even stronger to the point that Goku was going to dump Gohan for Piccolo in Episode 30 when Gohan asked to join the team.

I think you're taking 'original strength' too literally instead of seeing it as the saying, 'you're not at your peak anymore because you can't even go Ultimate'. For example, if Goku lost his god forms, but trained his other Super Saiyan forms to be stronger than he was with his god forms, Goku would still be below his 'original power' since he can't access his two strongest forms, therefore his true power.

[supercat]

HeroR summed it up very nicely.

Just wanted to add a few things.

Why would Piccolo and more to the point, Goku, make such a big deal out of Buu saga Ultimate Gohan, when far stronger opponents have surfaced since then. Goku also knows the tournament will have fighters comparable to Super Saiyan Blue, if not stronger, so I doubt he'd be interested in having Buu saga Ultimate Gohan compete.

Didn't Piccolo also tell Gohan SSJ isn't his best and to go past it? Yeah, that to me is a pretty strong implication that Piccolo just wanted Gohan to utilize Ultimate more so than anything else. Why might this be? Well for one, Ultimate brings out all of Gohan's powers, and two, Ultimate seems to drain far less stamina.