Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[JazzMazz]

Freeza's full power is gold, not his true form, so he was referring to that. That and he was trying to catch Goku off-guard. He told him he was going to use his full power but attacked him instead.

All piccolo said is that him and Gohan should try to reach new heights before the tournament. That statement isnt inherently specific to the small session they did to develop combinations.

Piccolo stated that he could do nothing more for Gohan, which is followed by Gohan asking Goku to train him. Then Gohan states that he wants to achieve an ultimate form never before seen when fighting Goku and in the same fight he breaks his own limits and matches Ssb Goku by the end.

The thing is though there is nothing to suggest he got stronger during the end of the fight. He simply stated he was using his full-power, that was it.

[Hugo Boss]

Freeza's full power is gold, not his true form, so he was referring to that. That and he was trying to catch Goku off-guard. He told him he was going to use his full power but attacked him instead.

All piccolo said is that him and Gohan should try to reach new heights before the tournament. That statement isnt inherently specific to the small session they did to develop combinations.

Piccolo stated that he could do nothing more for Gohan, which is followed by Gohan asking Goku to train him. Then Gohan states that he wants to achieve an ultimate form never before seen when fighting Goku and in the same fight he breaks his own limits and matches Ssb Goku by the end.

The thing is though there is nothing to suggest he got stronger during the end of the fight. He simply stated he was using his full-power, that was it.

While I think this wasn’t told line by line, the intent of the episode was to show Gohan surpassing a wall or at least depicting the Saiyan ability of getting stronger in the middle of the fight.

[dragon boss z]

Freeza's full power is gold, not his true form, so he was referring to that. That and he was trying to catch Goku off-guard. He told him he was going to use his full power but attacked him instead.

I know, but Frieza can change how much power he outputs in his final form. Obviously he was lying when he said that it was his full power, but it easily could of been more power than he was using before.

All piccolo said is that him and Gohan should try to reach new heights before the tournament. That statement isnt inherently specific to the small session they did to develop combinations.

It's implied Gohan would get stronger from the training though. At least by a little.

Piccolo stated that he could do nothing more for Gohan, which is followed by Gohan asking Goku to train him. Then Gohan states that he wants to achieve an ultimate form never before seen when fighting Goku and in the same fight he breaks his own limits and matches Ssb Goku by the end.

There is really nothing in the actual fight that shows Gohan all of a sudden broke his own limits when fighting. He just said he would use his full power. Either way current mystic Gohan is above buu saga mystic Gohan. Though I only think it is by a factor of a couple times.

[Rally 07]

Then Gohan states that he wants to achieve an ultimate form never before seen when fighting Goku and in the same fight he breaks his own limits and matches Ssb Goku by the end.

I don't believe Ultimate Gohan matched Super Saiyan Blue Gokou at all in the fight. Yes, Gohan very briefly exchanged blows with Gokou, but he did not match Gokou. I mean in the recap for episode 90 in I believe episode 91, the narrator stated that Gohan's power rivals Gokou's power. Rival doesn't necessarily equate to matching one's power. Also, I don't think Gohan is as strong as someone like Freeza or Cyborg no.17, as he wasn't able to push Gokou into transforming into Super Saiyan Blue. But he can somewhat contend with a decently suppressed Super Saiyan Blue though.

[Green]

I don't believe Ultimate Gohan matched Super Saiyan Blue Gokou at all in the fight. Yes, Gohan very briefly exchanged blows with Gokou, but he did not match Gokou. I mean in the recap for episode 90 in I believe episode 91, the narrator stated that Gohan's power rivals Gokou's power. Rival doesn't necessarily equate to matching one's power. Also, I don't think Gohan is as strong as someone like Freeza or Cyborg no.17, as he wasn't able to push Gokou into transforming into Super Saiyan Blue. But he can somewhat contend with a decently suppressed Super Saiyan Blue though.

Actually Toshio, the writer for that specific C17 episode, wrote on twitter not long ago a powerlevel chain where Gohan and 17 were equals.

[BlueVegerot]

Rivals Goku doesn't mean he is blue level or even particularly close. Rou the kaioshin for u9 said this about ssb goku "power that rivals the gods" doesn't mean he was actually close to GoD level and that has been shown to be true with SSB vs Jiren

[Rally 07]

"Actually Toshio, the writer for that specific C17 episode, wrote on twitter not long ago a powerlevel chain where Gohan and 17 were equals"

Yet Toshio had later contradicted himself on Twitter with him saying "Gohan > No.17". Along with that he said that his rankings of the Universe 7 team was more or less his personal opinion concerning it. Relying on the writers' opinions is kinda lazy as it sorta negates what episode 86 shown about Cyborg no.17 and what he's capable of against a Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. If you want, I can explain this more explicitly.
Oh yes, forgot to mention is that a writer's opinions is no different from anyone else's opinions. Any opinion is an opinion. Plus, we really have no official statements nor any confirmations via Akira Toriyama, Toyotaru, or guide proving that Gohan is greater Cyborg no.17.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, the best evidence we have is Gohan telling Goku to stop holding back against him, at which point Goku goes SSB.

Gohan then gets murked for a bit, then says he'll release more power and starts to fight back against his dad, then Goku uses Kaio-ken, at which point Gohan says he's gonna go at Goku with full power, after which the clash happens and Gohan is knocked unconscious but happy with himself. Even Vegeta seems astonished at that clash, though what exactly is meant is unknown.

Unfortunately, we don't know exactly what this means. The narration for the opening of the next episode seems to imply that Gohan's power is reaching that of his dad's but by how much is unknown. We also have Freeza going Golden against Ultimate Gohan, as he believes that since Gohan's using his full power that he might as well do so as well, and the two spar a bit before Freeza apparently knocks Gohan out. Of course, it turns out both of them were acting, so the validity of this scuffle can be called into question.

[Rally 07]

Honestly, the best evidence we have is Gohan telling Goku to stop holding back against him, at which point Goku goes SSB.

Gohan then gets murked for a bit, then says he'll release more power and starts to fight back against his dad, then Goku uses Kaio-ken, at which point Gohan says he's gonna go at Goku with full power, after which the clash happens and Gohan is knocked unconscious but happy with himself. Even Vegeta seems astonished at that clash, though what exactly is meant is unknown.

Unfortunately, we don't know exactly what this means. The narration for the opening of the next episode seems to imply that Gohan's power is reaching that of his dad's but by how much is unknown. We also have Freeza going Golden against Ultimate Gohan, as he believes that since Gohan's using his full power that he might as well do so as well, and the two spar a bit before Freeza apparently knocks Gohan out. Of course, it turns out both of them were acting, so the validity of this scuffle can be called into question.

Right exactly! Although the Freeza vs Gohan fight was staged to trick Frost, it does sorta tell us were Gohan stands in the Universe 7 team.

Also I personally believe Gokou could've possibly been both suppressed and then powering up without warning throughout the duration of the fight with Gohan. For instance, Gokou and Gohan began fighting is Base form, then Gohan powers up completely in Base form and launches an attack at Gokou. After that, Gokou says "I barely withstood that". This basically means that Gokou began to power up without warning.

Next Super Saiyan Blue Gokou vs Ultimate Gohan. I honestly believe that Gokou could've been suppressed as a Super Saiyan Blue. And potentially could've been suppressed in Kaioken as well. I believe is because Gokou wasn't trying to defeat Gohan. Characters such as Zamas, Gokou Black, Jiren, and to a lesser extent Freeza (Dragon Ball Super episode 95). And I don't believe Gokou would go to that extent against his own son. But on the other hand, he has respect for Gohan. And would just simply do what Gohan asked of him though.

[Green]

"Actually Toshio, the writer for that specific C17 episode, wrote on twitter not long ago a powerlevel chain where Gohan and 17 were equals"

Yet Toshio had later contradicted himself on Twitter with him saying "Gohan > No.17". Along with that he said that his rankings of the Universe 7 team was more or less his personal opinion concerning it. Relying on the writers' opinions is kinda lazy as it sorta negates what episode 86 shown about Cyborg no.17 and what he's capable of against a Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. If you want, I can explain this more explicitly.
Oh yes, forgot to mention is that a writer's opinions is no different from anyone else's opinions. Any opinion is an opinion. Plus, we really have no official statements nor any confirmations via Akira Toriyama, Toyotaru, or guide proving that Gohan is greater Cyborg no.17.

If he really said that later then i guess he isn't that much of a reliable source. Anyway i myself do think they are around the same power range but we can't ignore C17 has been portrayed better: him forcing Goku to turn SSB was something Gohan did too, but he was also hyped as very strong and it would've been bad if he were an enemy. Some evidence points to him having an edge over Ultimate Gohan I guess, but they aren't that far apart imo.
Toyotaro's going to explain how strong they are so i'm waiting for the next chapters.

[AvatarReiko]

Given what we know about fusion, how powerful would a Caulifa-Kale fusion be? Blue level? Merged Zamasu level?

[Hugo Boss]

Given what we know about fusion, how powerful would a Caulifa-Kale fusion be? Blue level? Merged Zamasu level?

Kafla in her final form will probably be stronger than Hit. My bet is Merged Zamas’ level.

[Rally 07]

"If he really said that later then i guess he isn't that much of a reliable source. Anyway i myself do think they are around the same power range but we can't ignore C17 has been portrayed better: him forcing Goku to turn SSB was something Gohan did too, but he was also hyped as very strong and it would've been bad if he were an enemy. Some evidence points to him having an edge over Ultimate Gohan I guess, but they aren't that far apart imo."
"Toyotaro's going to explain how strong they are so i'm waiting for the next chapters."

Right, I'd rather see a confirmation that Gohan is stronger than Cyborg no.17 via a guide, Akira Toriyama, Toyotaru, or even the Dragon Ball Super producer Atsushi Kido, as his word probably is more reliable than a writer who seems to not be so sure about his personal rankings for the Universe 7 Team.
Also, you bring up a good point. Cyborg no.17 and Gohan probably aren't that far apart in terms of power. In fact, Toshio probably believes that Gohan and no.17 are quite relativistic with each other. And they both can contend with a decently suppressed Super Saiyan Blue Gokou, with no.17 being able to hold his own against Gokou much longer, and more evenly than Gohan could.

[Bullza]

Given what we know about fusion, how powerful would a Caulifa-Kale fusion be? Blue level? Merged Zamasu level?

I don't think she'd be Merged Zamasu level because he wasn't far off Super Saiyan Blue Vegito level.

Caulifla herself is nowhere near as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue. Kale's strength is still unknown but she's less of a threat than Hit that's for sure.

[dragon boss z]

Given what we know about fusion, how powerful would a Caulifa-Kale fusion be? Blue level? Merged Zamasu level?

I don't think she'd be Merged Zamasu level because he wasn't far off Super Saiyan Blue Vegito level.

Caulifla herself is nowhere near as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue. Kale's strength is still unknown but she's less of a threat than Hit that's for sure.

Ya I'm going to assume their fussion is around SSB/Golden Frieza tier, as they will most likely fight one, if not both of them.

[HeroR]

Honestly, the best evidence we have is Gohan telling Goku to stop holding back against him, at which point Goku goes SSB.

Gohan then gets murked for a bit, then says he'll release more power and starts to fight back against his dad, then Goku uses Kaio-ken, at which point Gohan says he's gonna go at Goku with full power, after which the clash happens and Gohan is knocked unconscious but happy with himself. Even Vegeta seems astonished at that clash, though what exactly is meant is unknown.

Unfortunately, we don't know exactly what this means. The narration for the opening of the next episode seems to imply that Gohan's power is reaching that of his dad's but by how much is unknown. We also have Freeza going Golden against Ultimate Gohan, as he believes that since Gohan's using his full power that he might as well do so as well, and the two spar a bit before Freeza apparently knocks Gohan out. Of course, it turns out both of them were acting, so the validity of this scuffle can be called into question.

Gohan also said he was at his max power when he first went Ultimate against Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Goku had to tell him to released more power.

Overall, saving Gohan has power to rival Goku isn't the same as saying he's even with Goku even as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since Goku is said to rival the gods, yet we see how far behind he is to the Gods of Destruction by his battle with Jiren even with 20x Kaioken.

Given what we know about fusion, how powerful would a Caulifa-Kale fusion be? Blue level? Merged Zamasu level?

I don't think she'd be Merged Zamasu level because he wasn't far off Super Saiyan Blue Vegito level.

Caulifla herself is nowhere near as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue. Kale's strength is still unknown but she's less of a threat than Hit that's for sure.

Kale can be physically stronger than Hit and still be less than a threat since her Berserk form was uncontrollable until recently. She also lacks Hit's fighting experience and fast growth. This is brought up even in the Namek Saga when Krillin said that they could make Gohan an immortal instead of Vegeta and Vegeta rebutted this by saying that Gohan had the power, but not the battle experience.

[wolflonnie]

So up to this point, how much strong do you guys think Piccolo is? Would he be able to defeat Cell or Super Buu?

[Bullza]

So up to this point, how much strong do you guys think Piccolo is? Would he be able to defeat Cell or Super Buu?

He could probably take Cell but I don't know about Super Buu.

[apex_pretador]

Given what we know about fusion, how powerful would a Caulifa-Kale fusion be? Blue level? Merged Zamasu level?

She should be far weaker than SSB Vegetto since both the girls are much weaker than SSB Vegeta.

With berserker rage, I can see the fusion reaching merged Zamasu level.

Without bnerserker rage, SS2 should be weaker than current SS3 Goku to be fair. But I think it will be blue level due to plot reasons

So up to this point, how much strong do you guys think Piccolo is? Would he be able to defeat Cell or Super Buu?

Piccolo could easily backhand cell now, but Super buu will eventually win due to endless stamina and regeneration. But piccolo also has a chance

[Rally 07]

So up to this point, how much strong do you guys think Piccolo is? Would he be able to defeat Cell or Super Buu?

He could probably take Cell but I don't know about Super Buu.

Well definitely Cell, but Super Boo is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't put Piccolo above even Fat Boo. But I believe that he's now pretty relativistic to Super Saiyan 2 Gokou, Vegeta, and Gohan earlier in the Boo Saga, with both Gokou and Vegeta likely being much stronger than even Super Perfect Cell. And Gohan was a little weaker than his Super Saiyan 2 teenage self.
Also note that Piccolo is probably a bit harder to scale and analyze. I'll have to begin some research to somewhat gauge how strong Piccolo really is. The same can be said for Cyborg no.18.