Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Still, Freeza has no reason to fear them regardless of their numbers, he's aware he never trained before and after his thrashing from Beerus it's hard for me to accept he wouldn't just do anything about the power gap. Heck, Freeza doesn't know how strong Boo is in relation to anyone, only a vague warning from his father not to cross him based (likely) on superstitious rumors and over blown legends.

He has. He thought, at their current growth rate if a bunch of Saiyans turned Super, they might cause him problems. So he made a decision, the one which didn't involve training.

Even with his newfound power and arrogance, Freeza got somewhat scared by Beerus presence. It seems to me he accepted his inferiority, probably because of his defeat and his dad teachings/story's. It's not the same as Goku, Freeza is a racist. His problem for being defeated by Goku, was that it was at the hands of a Saiyan, a being he deems inferior. That doesn't apply to Beerus, who is a God and showed his superiority to further support that status.
I find it reasonable, him choosing not to close the gap. He probably, like I said, thought he could never catch up.
When he confronts Beerus and regains his composure he doesn't think: "Next I'll get revenge on Beerus" or "Maybe I can defeat that stupid cat with the power I've obtained".

He probably doesn't how much stronger Boo was but he must have been given a wide idea. Something like: "Hundred Majin Boo's wouldn't be able to put a scratch on Beerus, and hundred of you(Freeza) wouldn't put a scratch on Majin Boo". You see what I mean, broad strokes.

[Pannaliciour]

Maybe controlling golden form is his limit. He can't get any stronger than that. Thats why Beerus will be always stronger. And Freeza doesn't go after him.

Btw something is bugging my mind. If normal ssj is 50 times stronger than base form and every transformation by Freeza ( namek saga) is (tops) 3 or 4 times stronger than his previous one, how come golden freeza is stronger than ssj blue.

Ssj blue should at least have the 50 times multiplier. Because why else should you turn ssj blue if ssj 1 or 2 ( assuming that goku still has these forms) can complete the job.?

[Khin]

Maybe controlling golden form is his limit. He can't get any stronger than that. Thats why Beerus will be always stronger. And Freeza doesn't go after him.

Btw something is bugging my mind. If normal ssj is 50 times stronger than base form and every transformation by Freeza ( namek saga) is (tops) 3 or 4 times stronger than his previous one, how come golden freeza is stronger than ssj blue.

Ssj blue should at least have the 50 times multiplier. Because why else should you turn ssj blue if ssj 1 or 2 ( assuming that goku still has these forms) can complete the job.?

SSj multiplyer for Goku and Vegeta doesnt work like that anymore.Or else Goku could just turn SSjB 3 against Freeza and kick his ass.

[ekrolo2]

Still, Freeza has no reason to fear them regardless of their numbers, he's aware he never trained before and after his thrashing from Beerus it's hard for me to accept he wouldn't just do anything about the power gap. Heck, Freeza doesn't know how strong Boo is in relation to anyone, only a vague warning from his father not to cross him based (likely) on superstitious rumors and over blown legends.

He has. He thought, at their current growth rate if a bunch of Saiyans turned Super, they might cause him problems. So he made a decision, the one which didn't involve training.

Even with his newfound power and arrogance, Freeza got somewhat scared by Beerus presence. It seems to me he accepted his inferiority, probably because of his defeat and his dad teachings/story's. It's not the same as Goku, Freeza is a racist. His problem for being defeated by Goku, was that it was at the hands of a Saiyan, a being he deems inferior. That doesn't apply to Beerus, who is a God and showed his superiority to further support that status.
I find it reasonable, him choosing not to close the gap. He probably, like I said, thought he could never catch up.
When he confronts Beerus and regains his composure he doesn't think: "Next I'll get revenge on Beerus" or "Maybe I can defeat that stupid cat with the power I've obtained".

He probably doesn't how much stronger Boo was but he must have been given a wide idea. Something like: "Hundred Majin Boo's wouldn't be able to put a scratch on Beerus, and hundred of you(Freeza) wouldn't put a scratch on Majin Boo". You see what I mean, broad strokes.

Freeza despises the idea of anyone being above him, his (now unfounded) fear of the Super Saiyan's just adds another layer of hatred to the very idea since its an inferior species, a Saiyan doing the job. Plus, given how F plays it, Freeza's completely aware of the fact he has vast reserves of potential he's purposefully not using out of laziness.

Before this laziness and stupidity was justified, why? Because there was no Boo or Beerus, Freeza was the most powerful mortal in the universe hence he had no reason to train or think things through better. But now with all this other background crap with Beerus, Freeza is just a moron. He's not an arrogant ruler who's arrogance was pretty justified, now he's a dumbass who always knew he had a LOT more power in him and knew for a fact superior beings exist yet he does nothing about it.

This might just be my interpretation of Freeza clashing against yours but I can't buy him being okay with ANYONE being stronger than him regardless if they're a Saiyan, a God or some long dormant blob monsters. In my mind, if Cold was still stronger than him, Freeza would have killed him just to secure his position atop the pecking order.

[LightBing]

Maybe controlling golden form is his limit. He can't get any stronger than that. Thats why Beerus will be always stronger. And Freeza doesn't go after him.

Btw something is bugging my mind. If normal ssj is 50 times stronger than base form and every transformation by Freeza ( namek saga) is (tops) 3 or 4 times stronger than his previous one, how come golden freeza is stronger than ssj blue.

Ssj blue should at least have the 50 times multiplier. Because why else should you turn ssj blue if ssj 1 or 2 ( assuming that goku still has these forms) can complete the job.?

Everything that came before regarding SSJ should be throw out the window. SSB is it's own thing.

Freeza despises the idea of anyone being above him, his (now unfounded) fear of the Super Saiyan's just adds another layer of hatred to the very idea since its an inferior species, a Saiyan doing the job. Plus, given how F plays it, Freeza's completely aware of the fact he has vast reserves of potential he's purposefully not using out of laziness.

Before this laziness and stupidity was justified, why? Because there was no Boo or Beerus, Freeza was the most powerful mortal in the universe hence he had no reason to train or think things through better. But now with all this other background crap with Beerus, Freeza is just a moron. He's not an arrogant ruler who's arrogance was pretty justified, now he's a dumbass who always knew he had a LOT more power in him and knew for a fact superior beings exist yet he does nothing about it.

This might just be my interpretation of Freeza clashing against yours but I can't buy him being okay with ANYONE being stronger than him regardless if they're a Saiyan, a God or some long dormant blob monsters. In my mind, if Cold was still stronger than him, Freeza would have killed him just to secure his position atop the pecking order.

I checked it back and Freeza mentions SSG in Minus. So the changes made, strengthen his worries, if he thinks that SSG is in the same power level as Beerus.

Both our interpretations are valid. I just disagree on the laziness part. To keep his illusion of superiority, he would have preferred to avoid training. Not because he's lazy, to maintain the idea he was born into it. Had any effort being applied the idea dissolves itself.
Sure, he would still be a monster if he trained, but the effort would disqualify him as the being, "born to rule the Universe", IT would make him instead, the being "that had to train to be the ruler of the Universe".
To someone with Freeza's ego, this kind of stuff matter.

[ekrolo2]

Maybe controlling golden form is his limit. He can't get any stronger than that. Thats why Beerus will be always stronger. And Freeza doesn't go after him.

Btw something is bugging my mind. If normal ssj is 50 times stronger than base form and every transformation by Freeza ( namek saga) is (tops) 3 or 4 times stronger than his previous one, how come golden freeza is stronger than ssj blue.

Ssj blue should at least have the 50 times multiplier. Because why else should you turn ssj blue if ssj 1 or 2 ( assuming that goku still has these forms) can complete the job.?

Everything that came before regarding SSJ should be throw out the window. SSB is it's own thing.

Freeza despises the idea of anyone being above him, his (now unfounded) fear of the Super Saiyan's just adds another layer of hatred to the very idea since its an inferior species, a Saiyan doing the job. Plus, given how F plays it, Freeza's completely aware of the fact he has vast reserves of potential he's purposefully not using out of laziness.

Before this laziness and stupidity was justified, why? Because there was no Boo or Beerus, Freeza was the most powerful mortal in the universe hence he had no reason to train or think things through better. But now with all this other background crap with Beerus, Freeza is just a moron. He's not an arrogant ruler who's arrogance was pretty justified, now he's a dumbass who always knew he had a LOT more power in him and knew for a fact superior beings exist yet he does nothing about it.

This might just be my interpretation of Freeza clashing against yours but I can't buy him being okay with ANYONE being stronger than him regardless if they're a Saiyan, a God or some long dormant blob monsters. In my mind, if Cold was still stronger than him, Freeza would have killed him just to secure his position atop the pecking order.

I checked it back and Freeza mentions SSG in Minus. So the changes made, strengthen his worries, if he thinks that SSG is in the same power level as Beerus.

Both our interpretations are valid. I just disagree on the laziness part. To keep his illusion of superiority, he would have preferred to avoid training. Not because he's lazy, to maintain the idea he was born into it. Had any effort being applied the idea dissolves itself.
Sure, he would still be a monster if he trained, but the effort would disqualify him as the being, "born to rule the Universe", IT would make him instead, the being "that had to train to be the ruler of the Universe".
To someone with Freeza's ego, this kind of stuff matter.

He'd still be born to rule the universe though, even if he has to train he's still tapping into power exclusive to him. A mortal who, when he applies himself can rival some of the strongest to ever exist. Its something no one can else can do just by themselves, the only other beings who may have a chance or guys with constantly stacking up transformations or artificial beings or fusions,... Freeza as he is has this power, the power he's been born with that's now being refined into something better by applying himself.

Freeza clearly doesn't bother with this in F when he decides to exact revenge on Goku, because the very idea of anyone being above him pisses him off. Hell, the reason Goku lets him go the first time is for this very purpose, he knows he's not the strongest anymore and a Saiyan being that person is just another layer to Goku's "fuck you".

Freeza's laziness made sense before though, because he was the strongest even with Cold around. But with all this new information, I find it hard to believe he'd simply let Beerus being stronger than him lie. Especially since F plays it out like he's completely aware of his own potential from the get go.

[Hugo Boss]

This current discussion is one of the reasons I try to separate Dragon Ball Super or the recent movies from the main continuity. I guess it's a lot more simple to consider Namek Arc just a source of background to this new content. It's clear that it contradicts the notion that Freeza was the strongest guy back in the day and feared to be surpassed by another one. It wasn't supposed to exist anyone stronger than Freeza that he was aware of. His pride as the strongest is what justifies his character. Try to make this "my father told me to not mess with Boo and Beerus" stuff work with that old fact and you will end up with character nonsense.

[jcogginsa]

This current discussion is one of the reasons I try to separate Dragon Ball Super or the recent movies from the main continuity. I guess it's a lot more simple to consider Namek Arc just a source of background to this new content. It's clear that it contradicts the notion that Freeza was the strongest guy back in the day and feared to be surpassed by another one. It wasn't supposed to exist anyone stronger than Freeza that he was aware of. His pride as the strongest is what justifies his character. Try to make this "my father told me to not mess with Boo and Beerus" stuff work with that old fact and you will end up with character nonsense.

Well, You could reconcile Buu with him quite easily. Afterall, it's canon that he was afraid of the Super Saiyan Legend, and by the time of Namek Buu would have faded into a similar legend

[ekrolo2]

This current discussion is one of the reasons I try to separate Dragon Ball Super or the recent movies from the main continuity. I guess it's a lot more simple to consider Namek Arc just a source of background to this new content. It's clear that it contradicts the notion that Freeza was the strongest guy back in the day and feared to be surpassed by another one. It wasn't supposed to exist anyone stronger than Freeza that he was aware of. His pride as the strongest is what justifies his character. Try to make this "my father told me to not mess with Boo and Beerus" stuff work with that old fact and you will end up with character nonsense.

If Dragon Ball was more complicated than it already is I think I could excuse this kind of stuff as a natural occurrence of a more complex series trying to retcon stuff in but the series is wwwaayyyy to simply for these kind of problems to just get ignored. Especially problems that could be easily avoided if Toriyama just stopped and thought things through for five extra minutes.

Tying in Beerus to Freeza sounds like a cool idea.... Until you actually stop to think about what it means. Toriyama doesn't see past the "its a cool idea!" stage.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, You could reconcile Buu with him quite easily. Afterall, it's canon that he was afraid of the Super Saiyan Legend, and by the time of Namek Buu would have faded into a similar legend

The problem is the way Freeza speaks here and there. Here he lists Boo as an existing person, not simply a legend. There, if he knew of Boo, why referring to himself as the strongest being in the universe? It wouldn't make any sense, would it? You could probably assume Cold advised him in Hell, but this would be just a theory.

[Pannaliciour]

Maybe controlling golden form is his limit. He can't get any stronger than that. Thats why Beerus will be always stronger. And Freeza doesn't go after him.

Btw something is bugging my mind. If normal ssj is 50 times stronger than base form and every transformation by Freeza ( namek saga) is (tops) 3 or 4 times stronger than his previous one, how come golden freeza is stronger than ssj blue.

Ssj blue should at least have the 50 times multiplier. Because why else should you turn ssj blue if ssj 1 or 2 ( assuming that goku still has these forms) can complete the job.?

SSj multiplyer for Goku and Vegeta doesnt work like that anymore.Or else Goku could just turn SSjB 3 against Freeza and kick his ass.

Hmm, but thats what I don't understand. Can Goku still turn ssj, ssj 2 or ssj 3 or not? Ssj blue should be stronger than ssj 3, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If (Rof saga) base goku = or > final form freeza, than golden freeza is at minimum 400 times (assuming multiplier of respectively * 50, * 2 and * 4) his final form.

Sorry but i just don't get it anymore.

The best explanation is that Goku's new base (after training with Whis) is his strongest form without the ssj blue transformation. In other words, Goku's base includes all the power of ssj, ssj 2 and ssj 3 but without transforming in it and so no/less energie comsumption.?

[Bullza]

As cool as Super Saiyan Blue looks its made thing pretty complicated power level wise between that and then Goku (and Vegeta's) base form power.

Nobody really exactly what Super Saiyan Blue is which is half the problem. Then the numbers placed on SSJG Goku and Beerus....it's becoming a bit of a mess.

[apex_pretador]

Maybe controlling golden form is his limit. He can't get any stronger than that. Thats why Beerus will be always stronger. And Freeza doesn't go after him.

Btw something is bugging my mind. If normal ssj is 50 times stronger than base form and every transformation by Freeza ( namek saga) is (tops) 3 or 4 times stronger than his previous one, how come golden freeza is stronger than ssj blue.

Ssj blue should at least have the 50 times multiplier. Because why else should you turn ssj blue if ssj 1 or 2 ( assuming that goku still has these forms) can complete the job.?

imo, multipliers change if you do special training. Just like at Cell Games, goku's SS multiplier must be higher than where it was before HTC training.

[Bullza]

Herms made this comment which is pretty interesting.

"Goku specifically notes that "unlike me", Vegeta became SSG through his own power rather than by borrowing power from others."

I suppose we kinda knew that already but this does at least confirm it, how such a thing is possible though is another matter. Goku did say SSJG was a level of power he couldn't reach on his own so I'd say Whis taught him the particulars. Again another wasted chance in that Super didn't show this.

[Kaboom]

Herms made this comment which is pretty interesting.

"Goku specifically notes that "unlike me", Vegeta became SSG through his own power rather than by borrowing power from others."

I suppose we kinda knew that already but this does at least confirm it, how such a thing is possible though is another matter. Goku did say SSJG was a level of power he couldn't reach on his own so I'd say Whis taught him the particulars. Again another wasted chance in that Super didn't show this.

Lame. Totally, utterly, completely lame. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with sudden power-ups — they were plentiful and frequent in the original story. But they always at least had an actual plot device behind them. Sacred water, potential unlocks, new transformations, Fusion, etc... But apparently this time around we're not even gonna bother.

"So how did Vegeta gain Super Saiyan God power, something far above even the strongest of DBZ's characters which Goku said was a world he never knew existed and could never have attained on his own?"
"He trained."
"Brilliant!"

They had the opportunity to do anything they wanted... maybe something where Goku had to share a portion of his god-ki with Vegeta, or where intense exposure to god-ki in the realm inside Whis' staff, or maybe some deeper revelation about what the heck god-ki is in the first place... but nope. We've just got characters making insanely large, nigh-impossible power gains out of nowhere. This is the same crap that GT pulled.

I'm trying to enjoy Super however I can, but you don't even have to be a power levels type of fan to notice and see the problem in this kind of thing. It really drags things down.

[ZombieVito]

But Vegeta was trained for over 6 months by the strongest (and knowledgeable) person in the entire universe.

I see no problem at all with this.

[Lord Beerus]

Herms made this comment which is pretty interesting.

"Goku specifically notes that "unlike me", Vegeta became SSG through his own power rather than by borrowing power from others."

I suppose we kinda knew that already but this does at least confirm it, how such a thing is possible though is another matter. Goku did say SSJG was a level of power he couldn't reach on his own so I'd say Whis taught him the particulars. Again another wasted chance in that Super didn't show this.

Lame. Totally, utterly, completely lame. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with sudden power-ups — they were plentiful and frequent in the original story. But they always at least had an actual plot device behind them. Sacred water, potential unlocks, new transformations, Fusion, etc... But apparently this time around we're not even gonna bother.

"So how did Vegeta gain Super Saiyan God power, something far above even the strongest of DBZ's characters which Goku said was a world he never knew existed and could never have attained on his own?"
"He trained."
"Brilliant!"

They had the opportunity to do anything they wanted... maybe something where Goku had to share a portion of his god-ki with Vegeta, or where intense exposure to god-ki in the realm inside Whis' staff, or maybe some deeper revelation about what the heck god-ki is in the first place... but nope. We've just got characters making insanely large, nigh-impossible power gains out of nowhere. This is the same crap that GT pulled.

I'm trying to enjoy Super however I can, but you don't even have to be a power levels type of fan to notice and see the problem in this kind of thing. It really drags things down.

To be fair, that Vegeta's spike in power was at least somewhat foreshadowed in a way when he went through a mutation of increased strength after getting pissed of at Beerus hitting Bulma. My guess is that Whis had kept a note of this mutation of strength, and applying his own unique training methods, he was able to fully tap into the previously large amount hidden power that Vegeta had and was able to build upon it and then increase it by several multitudes. I mean, if Piccolo can jump from a BP just above Second Form Freeza to way above 100% Final Form Freeza through regular training for three years on his own, anything is possible.

[dbzfan7]

Herms made this comment which is pretty interesting.

"Goku specifically notes that "unlike me", Vegeta became SSG through his own power rather than by borrowing power from others."

I suppose we kinda knew that already but this does at least confirm it, how such a thing is possible though is another matter. Goku did say SSJG was a level of power he couldn't reach on his own so I'd say Whis taught him the particulars. Again another wasted chance in that Super didn't show this.

Lame. Totally, utterly, completely lame. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with sudden power-ups — they were plentiful and frequent in the original story. But they always at least had an actual plot device behind them. Sacred water, potential unlocks, new transformations, Fusion, etc... But apparently this time around we're not even gonna bother.

"So how did Vegeta gain Super Saiyan God power, something far above even the strongest of DBZ's characters which Goku said was a world he never knew existed and could never have attained on his own?"
"He trained."
"Brilliant!"

They had the opportunity to do anything they wanted... maybe something where Goku had to share a portion of his god-ki with Vegeta, or where intense exposure to god-ki in the realm inside Whis' staff, or maybe some deeper revelation about what the heck god-ki is in the first place... but nope. We've just got characters making insanely large, nigh-impossible power gains out of nowhere. This is the same crap that GT pulled.

I'm trying to enjoy Super however I can, but you don't even have to be a power levels type of fan to notice and see the problem in this kind of thing. It really drags things down.

I'm right with ya. It's incredibly lame. The loose ends are worse for me though. Not just with Vegeta, but all the possibilities that have opened are completely un-addressed.

[ZombieVito]

Now that both BoG and RoF arcs are over, show me your latest BP list!

Going by the god scale:

Whis: 15
Beerus: 10

Vados:?
Champa:?

Freeza:?
-- Final form:?
-- Golden form:?

Goku:?
-- SSB:?

Vegeta:?
-- SSB:?

Gohan:?
-- SSJ:?
-- SSJ enraged:?

Ginyu:?
Tagoma:?

[LightBing]

But Vegeta was trained for over 6 months by the strongest (and knowledgeable) person in the entire universe.

I see no problem at all with this.

I'm with you, it's a good enough explanation to me. It follows the standard Dragon Ball formula. Goku's "I would never reach this level on my own" still applies, hadn't they met Beerus and Whis. Vegeta would never get to this level in 1000 years.
Although I would've like an elaborate training sequence.

Now that both BoG and RoF arcs are over, show me your latest BP list!

I'll have to get around to it. I suspect that in the God Scale, the usual gaps in power don't apply. I'm thinking that for one to have a close fight, the difference must be "0.5" or less. With "1" difference, the fight is entertaining but it's doubtful the weaker fighter has a chance.