Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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ssj3kakarot
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:01 am

AvatarReiko wrote:How would guys handle the Goku vs Kafla fight and the power difference between them?

If it were me, I'd have base Kalfa murk SSJ2 Goku. Goku then goes blue and overpower her again. Kalfa goes SS2 in response and the two fight evenly. She then goes Berserker or SSJ3(we all know it's going to happen) and overwhelms Goku. Goku, on the brink, activates SSJBKKx10 and defeats her. That or her fusion runs out

So KKx10 Goku>>>SS3 Kafla or Berserker Kafla>>>SSJB Goku=>SSJ2 Kafla>>>Base Kalfa>>>SSJ2 Goku

I sure hope it doesn't scale like this.

SSG was miles and miles ahead of SS3 Goku (Reference Goku vs Beerus's 1st fight). Here is where I feel the issue is.

The fusion use to be the pinnacle of power back in Dbz. Then God-ki/forms came out and realistically, the only way a fusion can hold a candle, is if that fused character has a freakish high power level or that the fused character can also use some God form.

In all reality, a current base Vegitto, maybe even a ss1 current Vegitto should get wrecked by SSB Goku or SSB Vegeta. Fusion + ss1 doesn't really impress like it use to when you have SSB.

I realize it's terrible writing to introduce new characters and have them be absolute trash, but it's also equally terrible, if not worse, to back track on already established hierarchy/common sense because....reasons.

I'm all for people being relivant, like Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, or Jiren. They've been established from the start to be people who are impressive. The U6 saiyans on the other hand, haven't had much real back story other than, "OMG, SUPER DUPER POTENTIAL Plot Power!" Or "Beserk Rage Monster Super Saiyan! I know I'm probably overthinking it, but it screams plot convenience to close the gap between u6 sayians and Goku (seemingly) in this fashion.

It takes away all the hard work and training that the Z warriors have put in, to get to where they are, only to be equaled by fighters who just learned how to go SS1 not too long ago. Don't elevate new characters at the expense of what a good majority of what the franchise was built around. Or at the very least, give the viewers some in-universe dialogue as to why things are the way they are. Whis's dialouge during Goku's ultra-instinct fight was a perfect example of what I'm referring to.

I think if Goku brings outs Blue against Kalfa, it should be simply to mess around with her, regardless of what super saiyan state she is in. Not only that, but dialogue to back it up ( Something like Vegeta saying " Why is that clown playing around with that Kafla whore")
" I swear on that faith I can never back down now" - Goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:42 am

ssj3kakarot wrote:Not only that, but dialogue to back it up ( Something like Vegeta saying " Why is that clown playing around with that Kafla whore")
Resurrection ["Anime labs" fan-subs]??
Guess Vegeta potentially calling Ribrianne a fatso might be received well by some, lol.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:20 am

ZombieVito wrote:We have the perfect opportunity to know what the multipliers for SSG and SSB are.

:D
I bet it makes it worse.

Every time I've looked forward to the possibility of something becoming more clear it's actually been made so much worse.

Knowing this series they'd make out that the multiplier for Super Saiyan God was like 5 times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 or something.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:38 am

Bullza wrote: I bet it makes it worse.

Every time I've looked forward to the possibility of something becoming more clear it's actually been made so much worse.

Knowing this series they'd make out that the multiplier for Super Saiyan God was like 5 times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 or something.
That's quite possible, especially now that we see how very little of his true power Beerus was using in that battle.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:57 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Bullza wrote: I bet it makes it worse.

Every time I've looked forward to the possibility of something becoming more clear it's actually been made so much worse.

Knowing this series they'd make out that the multiplier for Super Saiyan God was like 5 times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 or something.
That's quite possible, especially now that we see how very little of his true power Beerus was using in that battle.
It would be fine if BoG didn't establish that SSJG was much higher than Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and Rageta.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:28 am

You know, I didn't have much of a problem with Goku doing better than SS2 Caulifla in just base mode.
His and Vegeta's training sessions with Whis primarily revolved them being limited to base form(though of course ever since the U6 arc, the anime has had them train in their transformed states too), so it makes sense, that even with inferior power, they could perform better than they normally should, thanks to what Whis taught them.
Of course that is not the explanation directly given, instead it's because of Goku's skill level, either way we are left to wonder, why Goku was worried at all about those U3 robots. Caulifla blew them away pretty easily and she was in base and not yet fighting like a pro like Goku, yet Goku was worried about them, despite being fully capable of throwing away the powered up version of the person, who blew away those worrying robots?
It's just one of those things with the writing.
Of course another thing is that this just consolidates the whole videogame logic, I've harped on about in the past with this serving as acknowledgement, that fighters can fight against overwhelmingly stronger fighters in Toei productions, this time with an actual explanation as to how that's possible.

As for the forthcoming merger and speculations about multipliers, I wouldn't get my hopes up, whatever it is, guaranteed it won't be consistent, so why even bother with assigning a number.
I'm expecting the full power of Kafla to be on par or somewhat stronger than current Goku Blue, but we'll see.

As an aside, assuming the multipliers are the exact same they were in BoG, then a quick calculation:

SSG(BoG): 1
SS post God(BoG): 1
SS2 post God: 2
SS3 post God: 8
SSG post GoD: > 8 ??
The absorption of SSG's power, but still keeping the later forms viable with the same multipliers(especially Goku still having God) just ruined everything..
Could Goku not go SS2, 3 and God afterwards? Did he have to relearn those forms? Goku himself didn't even know he had changed from God to SS, so that'd imply as far as he knew, he was giving it his all! And yet he just randomly has those forms later on with no explanation..

SSB(RoF): >> 8
SSB(U6): >>> 8
SSB(FT): >>>> 8
SSB KK x10(U6): >>>> 80
SSB KK x10(FT): >>>>> 80
SSB KK x10(ToP): >>>>>> 80
SSB KK x20(ToP): >>>>>> 160
Jiren(Beerus, Belmod etc??): >>>>>>> 160.

Goku didn't even reach 1% of Beerus' power, yet somehow Vegeta made him use 10%, underlining the fact, that you are just better off working within the parameters of the arc itself, rather than stretching it out over all arcs, expecting absolute consistency.
I 've said it before, that going by an arc by arc basis view of power levels is probably for the best, gives far less headaches, that's for sure.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:12 pm

Helios518 wrote:It would be fine if BoG didn't establish that SSJG was much higher than Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and Rageta.
he should be thought, he's implied to be above the fusion between Goku and Vegeta which includes Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

Even Base Goku is above Gotenks. With Super Saiyan God being able to threaten the universe he should who knows how many thousands upon thousands of times stronger he is compared to the Solar System busting Cell and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:14 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:We have the perfect opportunity to know what the multipliers for SSG and SSB are.

:D
I bet it makes it worse.

Every time I've looked forward to the possibility of something becoming more clear it's actually been made so much worse.

Knowing this series they'd make out that the multiplier for Super Saiyan God was like 5 times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 or something.
Well the multiplier is not that big.

Black was SS3 tier, turned Super Saiyan and became SSB tier.

SS3 --> SSB is around a 50 times multiplier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:28 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Well the multiplier is not that big.

Black was SS3 tier, turned Super Saiyan and became SSB tier.

SS3 --> SSB is around a 50 times multiplier.
Well if Black was Super Saiyan 3 level (he was comfortably above) and so was over 400 times stronger than Base Goku. Then Black turned Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Which would mean Super Saiyan Blue would be over 40,000 times stronger than their Base form. With that Base form being stronger than Gotenks. So when Goku first became a Super Saiyan God when he wasn't even as strong as Frieza then the multiplier would have been hundreds of thousands.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:38 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Well the multiplier is not that big.

Black was SS3 tier, turned Super Saiyan and became SSB tier.

SS3 --> SSB is around a 50 times multiplier.
Well if Black was Super Saiyan 3 level (he was comfortably above) and so was over 400 times stronger than Base Goku. Then Black turned Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Which would mean Super Saiyan Blue would be over 40,000 times stronger than their Base form. With that Base form being stronger than Gotenks. So when Goku first became a Super Saiyan God when he wasn't even as strong as Frieza then the multiplier would have been hundreds of thousands.
We pretty much have to use the events of the anime because if not then Black is over 400 times stronger than Blue Goku as Rose.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:46 pm

ZombieVito wrote:We pretty much have to use the events of the anime because if not then Black is over 400 times stronger than Blue Goku as Rose.
Well Base Black is considerably more than 400 times stronger than Base Goku in the anime. He's stronger in the anime than he is in the manga.

I don't think that God multiplier would apply at all though. In either version there's no way Super Saiyan Rose Black is over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:48 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:We pretty much have to use the events of the anime because if not then Black is over 400 times stronger than Blue Goku as Rose.
Well Base Black is considerably more than 400 times stronger than Base Goku in the anime. He's stronger in the anime than he is in the manga.

I don't think that God multiplier would apply at all though. In either version there's no way Super Saiyan Rose Black is over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.
Thankfully the anime said that Rose was his version of Super Saiyan not Super Saiyan Blue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:35 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:We pretty much have to use the events of the anime because if not then Black is over 400 times stronger than Blue Goku as Rose.
Well Base Black is considerably more than 400 times stronger than Base Goku in the anime. He's stronger in the anime than he is in the manga.

I don't think that God multiplier would apply at all though. In either version there's no way Super Saiyan Rose Black is over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue.
Thankfully the anime said that Rose was his version of Super Saiyan not Super Saiyan Blue.
Which means a 50 times multiplier on top of however many times stronger Goku Black is than Goku's base form. More than 400 times, since Goku Black got even stronger since Future Trunks last saw him in his timeline and became even stronger after his battle with SS2 Goku, thus allowing his SSR's supposed 50 times multiplier to equal SSB Goku and Vegeta at the time.

Of course, Goku Black works REALLY WEIRD, so it's highly possible that SSR doesn't have the same kind of multiplier as regular SS. Given how Ultimate Gohan right now is supposed to be closing in on SSB Goku (I'm just assuming that's the case, alright?), that can tell us a few things.

For example, Ultimate Gohan by most accounts was around 10-15 times stronger than SS3 Goku during the end of the original manga if SS Gotenks is supposed to be about as strong as SS3 Goku or so. If Gohan's dead even with Goku in equivalent forms right now, then SSB can't be much more than 15-20 times stronger than SS3 Goku. If that's the case, then maybe SSR is only around 10 times stronger than Goku Black's base form, like how the original SS form was intended be something like 10x by Toriyama.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:15 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Thankfully the anime said that Rose was his version of Super Saiyan not Super Saiyan Blue.
I think they just said it was a version of Super Saiyan of which Super Saiyan Rose would technically be.

It was also only said in some preview. It's supposed to be his equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue which is why he has the same aura and everything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:36 pm

Bullza wrote:
Helios518 wrote:It would be fine if BoG didn't establish that SSJG was much higher than Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and Rageta.
he should be thought, he's implied to be above the fusion between Goku and Vegeta which includes Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

Even Base Goku is above Gotenks. With Super Saiyan God being able to threaten the universe he should who knows how many thousands upon thousands of times stronger he is compared to the Solar System busting Cell and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.
Of course, everything you said I agree with. But I'm saying in the case that the Goku's BoG statement about Vegetto is wrong (which next and the following episode may likely do so), then SSJG would still be more than 5x SSJ3 just for the fact, that it's still much greater than Ultimate Gohan (who's many times stronger than SSJ3 himself).
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:42 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Thankfully the anime said that Rose was his version of Super Saiyan not Super Saiyan Blue.
I think they just said it was a version of Super Saiyan of which Super Saiyan Rose would technically be.

It was also only said in some preview. It's supposed to be his equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue which is why he has the same aura and everything.
Then it's a legit plot hole.

Funny enough, Saiyan beyond God fixes this. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:03 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Thankfully the anime said that Rose was his version of Super Saiyan not Super Saiyan Blue.
I think they just said it was a version of Super Saiyan of which Super Saiyan Rose would technically be.

It was also only said in some preview. It's supposed to be his equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue which is why he has the same aura and everything.
Then it's a legit plot hole.

Funny enough, Saiyan beyond God fixes this. :lol:
Thst isn’t a plot hole.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:55 pm

HeroR wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:
I think they just said it was a version of Super Saiyan of which Super Saiyan Rose would technically be.

It was also only said in some preview. It's supposed to be his equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue which is why he has the same aura and everything.
Then it's a legit plot hole.

Funny enough, Saiyan beyond God fixes this. :lol:
Thst isn’t a plot hole.
So tell me, why isn't Black 400 times stronger than Blue Goku?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:12 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
So tell me, why isn't Black 400 times stronger than Blue Goku?
He was obviously stronger by a good amount since we saw the different between even Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan God with Jiren. Black handled two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans and Trunks with eased.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:25 pm

HeroR wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
So tell me, why isn't Black 400 times stronger than Blue Goku?
He was obviously stronger by a good amount since we saw the different between even Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan God with Jiren. Black handled two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans and Trunks with eased.
So Vegeta got over 400 times stronger in less than a day in the RoSaT?

:lol:

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