Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

I thought "saiyan beyond god" was that powered up base state that Goku was fight Frieza with in ROF? Or is that simply his normal base state , which he can then stack his SSJ forms on top of? The movies seem to imply that he had god ki at the time but he never uses normal SSJ1 and 2. Man, it's confusing

Saiyan Beyond God was something used in Heroes once to indicate how strong Goku and Vegeta's base forms were. It wasn't a separate form or a second base form with god ki. Resurrection 'F' movie never stated that Goku's base had god ki, especially since everyone sensed base form Goku when they couldn't sense Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.

The retellings made this made this even more apparent since everyone sensed Goku after he lost Super Saiyan God to Beerus and Whis even said he wasn't a god anymore. Everyone sensed base form Goku fighting Frieza, yet they couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and thought it was Super Saiyan God until someone pointed out that the color was wrong.

[Bullza]

Not sure why this is still a thing since Beerus said himself that Super Saiyan God Goku was underwhelming.

He also said that he briefly regretted seeking him out.

Going by what we know now. Beerus wouldn't have even need 0.1 of his power to royally stomp Super Saiyan God Goku. Kinda ruins the story entirely.

And Beerus was spit balling a lot since he was trying to get Goku to go all out. This is the same guy who claimed he was going all out.

It doesn't ruined the story since the story was that despite Goku's power-up, he couldn't beat Beerus and Beerus wasn't even at full power. The levels in which Beerus tried doesn't really matter.

Well he could have been lying when he said he was underwhelming if we go with that.

It's not good story telling to have done it in that way when later we are led to believe that if he really wanted to he could have tapped him and ended it in 1 second. Korin would have stood a better chance at beating Captain Ginyu.

It was clearly never the original intention to begin with either seeing as he used 10% against the much weaker Vegeta.

Even when they fought again Beerus was starting to get into that fight and wanted to end it quickly to keep up the act and it still didn't end with one punch.

[HeroR]

Well he could have been lying when he said he was underwhelming if we go with that.

It's not good story telling to have done it in that way when later we are led to believe that if he really wanted to he could have tapped him and ended it in 1 second. Korin would have stood a better chance at beating Captain Ginyu.

It was clearly never the original intention to begin with either seeing as he used 10% against the much weaker Vegeta.

Even when they fought again Beerus was starting to get into that fight and wanted to end it quickly to keep up the act and it still didn't end with one punch.

Why would he lie about that since he was talking to Whis? Even Whis said that Super Saiyan God Goku fall short, but had a lot of potential.

How isn't good storytelling? Goku got a power-up that despite being extremely drastic wasn't anything to Beerus. That was the point of the movie, especially with Beerus saying that they were others beyond him. Beerus more less admitted even in Battle of Gods that he humored Super Saiyan God Goku. Basically, Beerus gave Goku A for effort and acknowledged Goku's growth.

You keep saying this despite Vegeta not even touching 10% Beerus, heavily implying it was overkill, and as far as we know Beerus used the same 10% to knocked around Super Saiyan God Goku since he never gave an honest percentage of his power.

Beerus may have gotten into the fight to some extent, just like Goku got into the fight with Rib in his base form and called her amazing. In other words, Beerus need to have a fight of any kind overwhelmed the need to take Goku out quickly.

[Bullza]

Why would he lie about that since he was talking to Whis? Even Whis said that Super Saiyan God Goku fall short, but had a lot of potential.

How isn't good storytelling? Goku got a power-up that despite being extremely drastic wasn't anything to Beerus. That was the point of the movie, especially with Beerus saying that they were others beyond him. Beerus more less admitted even in Battle of Gods that he humored Super Saiyan God Goku. Basically, Beerus gave Goku A for effort and acknowledged Goku's growth.

You keep saying this despite Vegeta not even touching 10% Beerus, heavily implying it was overkill, and as far as we know Beerus used the same 10% to knocked around Super Saiyan God Goku since he never gave an honest percentage of his power.

Beerus may have gotten into the fight to some extent, just like Goku got into the fight with Rib in his base form and called her amazing. In other words, Beerus need to have a fight of any kind overwhelmed the need to take Goku out quickly.

Well why he would he lie about using a fraction of his power against Vegeta? Or saying he only briefly regretted seeking Goku out at the end of their fight?

They spent four or five episodes on that Goku and Beerus fight. With Beerus "ending" the fight only for Goku to keep coming back and pushing Beerus to fight even harder.

At the very end of the fight when Goku launched his final Kamehamea, Beerus actually said he couldn't nullify that one unlike he did with the previous one, seemingly because it would be too powerful which is why he countered with his own attack.

But if he's thousands or tens of thousands of times stronger he wouldn't have even needed to do anything. Super Saiyan God was that weak in comparison that it just makes it pointless.

Again though this was clearly not the original intention. Beerus wasn't supposed to be thousands upon thousands of times stronger. It's just what the has happened because of incredibly shoddy power scaling ever since.

What went from Super Saiyan God Goku being 60% as strong as Beerus has now changed to him not being 0.6% as strong.

[HeroR]

Well why he would he lie about using a fraction of his power against Vegeta? Or saying he only briefly regretted seeking Goku out at the end of their fight?

They spent four or five episodes on that Goku and Beerus fight. With Beerus "ending" the fight only for Goku to keep coming back and pushing Beerus to fight even harder.

At the very end of the fight when Goku launched his final Kamehamea, Beerus actually said he couldn't nullify that one unlike he did with the previous one, seemingly because it would be too powerful which is why he countered with his own attack.

But if he's thousands or tens of thousands of times stronger he wouldn't have even needed to do anything. Super Saiyan God was that weak in comparison that it just makes it pointless.

Again though this was clearly not the original intention. Beerus wasn't supposed to be thousands upon thousands of times stronger. It's just what the has happened because of incredibly shoddy power scaling ever since.

What went from Super Saiyan God Goku being 60% as strong as Beerus has now changed to him not being 0.6% as strong.

That isn't what I said. I said that Beerus used 10%, but he didn't need to. He just did like Freeza didn't need 50% of his power to murk Goku before Super Saiyan. And Beerus was still screwing with Goku even when he said that line. And he could be regretting Goku because Goku at this point was making himself a pest to Beerus since he wouldn't go down. Remember Beerus was pissed that Goku ruined his 'perfect ending' for him.

It was meant to be a big fight between gods and the 'punch line' was that Beerus wasn't even trying despite how specular the battle was. The same happened in the move to a lesser extent. To Goku, it was a life and death battle wit ha God of Destruction. To Beerus, that was a nice exercise even if the opponent was lackluster.

More like Beerus wanted to counter and just said he couldn't. Seriously, why are you talking Beerus' word on anything after he said 'this is my full my power', which turned out to be, 'well, no' just an episode later?

Beerus didn't need to do anything. He wanted to do something and pushed Goku since he waited 39 years to fight a Super Saiyan God and he was going to get his money worth. Just like Goku dragging his fight with Rib in his base where he could have wasted her any time he wanted. He was having fun, so why rush.

You are assuming the 'original' intent since even in the movie it was made clear that Beerus wasn't trying and he called Super Saiyan God Goku lackluster.

And it was never said that Super Saiyan God Goku was 60% of Beerus, only that Beerus used 75% of his power at his peak. That 60% comes from fans taking Toriyama's 6-10-15 line as a percentage instead of just a metric of how far off Goku was to Beerus and how far Beerus is to Whis.

[TheMikado]

Ok so help me to understand this?

Vegeta goes SSRage and Beerus says he had to use about 10% of his power and implies that it is beyond SSJ3.
Fast forward and Goku going SSBxKKx20 may not be stronger than Beerus.

And we are arguing Beerus overshot his power by 10000% and then misquoted his own power? because at around 10% power Beerus should have accidentally snapped Vegeta's neck.

Or maybe, just maybe the written wasn't well planned and its just inconsistent.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ok so help me to understand this?

Vegeta goes SSRage and Beerus says he had to use about 10% of his power and implies that it is beyond SSJ3.
Fast forward and Goku going SSBxKKx20 may not be stronger than Beerus.

And we are arguing Beerus overshot his power by 10000% and then misquoted his own power? because at around 10% power Beerus should have accidentally snapped Vegeta's neck.

Or maybe, just maybe the written wasn't well planned and its just inconsistent.

It's probably the latter, but the writers will never outright confirm or deny this. That's just not good professional writing form to do that openly.

So, we fans are left headcanon-ing the whole ordeal. Personally, I've always gone under the assumption that Beerus meant 10% of his suppressed power at the time. Along with this, Goku's comment towards Fusion not cutting it is based on estimating Beerus's suppressed power at the time, and SSG Goku managed to make Beerus use 100% of his suppressed power.

===

As for the whole "thousands of times stronger than god forms" stuff with Jiren and other beings at or above the level of Hakaishin, I did some maths and rationalizing about that using Goku's Genkidama struggle against Jiren.

Basically, we use the template of Goku's Genkidama struggle against Pure Buu and compare it to the one with Jiren. Using the SEG's 400 times boost for SS3, we see that base Goku is barely able to stalemate Pure Buu, whom should be about as strong as himself as a SS3 and was also putting in quite a bit of effort. Then we move on to Jiren.

Even with SSB/KKx20, Goku is barely able to stalemate Jiren's GLARE, and he was explicitly stated to not be full power. Even if you were to use the bare minimum precedent, that'd make Jiren 400 times stronger than SSB/KKx20 Goku, minimum 8000 times stronger than SSB-level fighters. And that's the LOW END. Conveniently enough, that factor of thousands is often how much stronger Vegetto can come out to be compared to Goku and Vegeta.

[Helios518]

Even with SSB/KKx20, Goku is barely able to stalemate Jiren's GLARE, and he was explicitly stated to not be full power. Even if you were to use the bare minimum precedent, that'd make Jiren 400 times stronger than SSB/KKx20 Goku, minimum 8000 times stronger than SSB-level fighters. And that's the LOW END. Conveniently enough, that factor of thousands is often how much stronger Vegetto can come out to be compared to Goku and Vegeta.

I understand how you got the 400x but where does the 8,000x come from?

[TheMikado]

Even with SSB/KKx20, Goku is barely able to stalemate Jiren's GLARE, and he was explicitly stated to not be full power. Even if you were to use the bare minimum precedent, that'd make Jiren 400 times stronger than SSB/KKx20 Goku, minimum 8000 times stronger than SSB-level fighters. And that's the LOW END. Conveniently enough, that factor of thousands is often how much stronger Vegetto can come out to be compared to Goku and Vegeta.

I understand how you got the 400x but where does the 8,000x come from?

I don’t know either but here is how I do it.
Let’s say Gokus base is at SSJ3 levels now.

Meaning everything Goku does is 400x stronger than whatever he did in the Buu saga. Now thisGokubcan still go SSJ and such so all the multipliers are still present. Meaning SSJ3 Goku is currently 160000x stronger than his base in Buu arc. Now I’m going to be Super conservative and day SSG is only a x500 increase against SSJ3 a 20% different. Meaning SSG is 20,000x stronger than base Buu Goku. So we will also using the manga and anime to arrive at the 10x SSG multiplier for SSB because it’s better than using the other huge multipliers.

So SSB is 200,000x stronger than base Buu Goku.
Now stack x20kk on that..

Goku is at least 4,000,000x times stronger than base Buu Goku as SSBxKkx20. Or about 400,000,000% stronger!!!

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Even with SSB/KKx20, Goku is barely able to stalemate Jiren's GLARE, and he was explicitly stated to not be full power. Even if you were to use the bare minimum precedent, that'd make Jiren 400 times stronger than SSB/KKx20 Goku, minimum 8000 times stronger than SSB-level fighters. And that's the LOW END. Conveniently enough, that factor of thousands is often how much stronger Vegetto can come out to be compared to Goku and Vegeta.

I understand how you got the 400x but where does the 8,000x come from?

400 times 20 is 8000. Simple.

Notice that I said "SSB-level fighters". That means fights at SSB Goku's level, WITHOUT Kaio-ken.

[ZombieVito]

Saiyan beyond God went out of the window when Freeza needed Gold to endure an attack from SS2 Cabba.

[ssbgoku]

Even with SSB/KKx20, Goku is barely able to stalemate Jiren's GLARE, and he was explicitly stated to not be full power. Even if you were to use the bare minimum precedent, that'd make Jiren 400 times stronger than SSB/KKx20 Goku, minimum 8000 times stronger than SSB-level fighters. And that's the LOW END. Conveniently enough, that factor of thousands is often how much stronger Vegetto can come out to be compared to Goku and Vegeta.

I understand how you got the 400x but where does the 8,000x come from?

I don’t know either but here is how I do it.
Let’s say Gokus base is at SSJ3 levels now.

Meaning everything Goku does is 400x stronger than whatever he did in the Buu saga. Now thisGokubcan still go SSJ and such so all the multipliers are still present. Meaning SSJ3 Goku is currently 160000x stronger than his base in Buu arc. Now I’m going to be Super conservative and day SSG is only a x500 increase against SSJ3 a 20% different. Meaning SSG is 20,000x stronger than base Buu Goku. So we will also using the manga and anime to arrive at the 10x SSG multiplier for SSB because it’s better than using the other huge multipliers.

So SSB is 200,000x stronger than base Buu Goku.
Now stack x20kk on that..

Goku is at least 4,000,000x times stronger than base Buu Goku as SSBxKkx20. Or about 400,000,000% stronger!!!

Yeah it sounds ridiculous but I bet that currently asked Toei or Toryiama in some interview would make multiplier for ssg much smaller.
also going by dbs manga(of bog arc) ssj goku was easily beating cell in image fight, while he was uncertain about battle majin buu. It means something if in pre super I doubt goku would beat cell just by going ssj, which could make him already 4 times stronger (I have him like that).

Bog vegito(both goku and vegeta got stronger at least 2 times) would be quite stronger then buu arc vegito too.
I believe that ssg was just 8 times multiplier but along with transfered energy from sayians(false ritual) + pushing his body to limit goku may got zenkai while using ssg too.

ssg for me would be 3200 x times over base, while I have buu arc base vegetto below ssj3 gotenks(2.25 times weaker, while ssj3 gotenks was 4 times stronger then ss3 goku full power ), Buu arc ssj vegetto would be then 3000 over base goku at the max, so it would be correct, but adding ssj2 or ssj3 would put him above ssg goku which could be correct as it was never stated or suggest just assumed by thirsty of god power fans

[Freezerbaby]

I´m honestly looking forward to watching how the manga handles freeza, depending on how toyotaro shows where final form freeza´s strenght stands compared to base goku and base vegeta, we will be getting a better picture and we could finally answer a question that has already remained unanswered for two years.

[Bullza]

He just did like Freeza didn't need 50% of his power to murk Goku before Super Saiyan.

He did need 50% because he was taking into account his hidden power (Kaioken) when he powered up that much.

And he could be regretting Goku because Goku at this point was making himself a pest to Beerus since he wouldn't go down.

But with how powerful he's been made out now then he could have ended it whenever he wanted to immediately. He shouldn't ​even be in a position where he won't go down.

More like Beerus wanted to counter and just said he couldn't. Seriously, why are you talking Beerus' word on anything after he said 'this is my full my power', which turned out to be, 'well, no' just an episode later?

He lied once. Doesn't mean he lied about everything. That Kamehameha was supposed to be so powerful Beerus couldn't nullify it and had to counter it instead. Yet if he's now thousands of times as strong as Super Saiyan God then it wouldn't matter regardless, the Kamehameha would have done nothing to him.

And it was never said that Super Saiyan God Goku was 60% of Beerus, only that Beerus used 75% of his power at his peak. That 60% comes from fans taking Toriyama's 6-10-15 line as a percentage instead of just a metric of how far off Goku was to Beerus and how far Beerus is to Whis.

Beerus used 70% in Battle of Gods which fit with him being a 7 and winning but still having trouble against a Goku who was a 6. That's where that came from.

[Lord Beerus]

Spoilers for Episode 115-118 are out.

- Goku is going Ultra Insticnt against Kafla
- Kalfa, in response to Goku sing Ultra Instinct, is going to power up again. SSJ2/3 Kalfa vs Ultra Instinct Goku?
- Goku burns through all of his energy, again, and Universe 2 target him.
- The fate of Kalfa once Goku is powerless is left ambiguous.
- Android 17 and 18 vs Universe 2 is on the cards.

[Marlowe89]

^ That would either have to mean that A) Kafla is indeed considerably stronger than Vegito or B) Goku is just exhausted and weakened as I originally proposed. Neither of which means that Super Saiyan God is as weak as some people in this thread have been suggesting.

[dragon boss z]

Saiyan beyond God went out of the window when Freeza needed Gold to endure an attack from SS2 Cabba.

He just did that so he would take 0 damage. Frieza was about to attack ssj2 Caulifla and controlled berserk Kale at the same time in his final form. Not saying saiyan beyond god exists, but that example isn't really the best.

[Saturnine]

Saiyan beyond God went out of the window when Freeza needed Gold to endure an attack from SS2 Cabba.

He just did that so he would take 0 damage. Frieza was about to attack ssj2 Caulifla and controlled berserk Kale at the same time in his final form. Not saying saiyan beyond god exists, but that example isn't really the best.

If his base was on par with SBG, he wouldn't have needed to transform to take zero damage at all.

[dragon boss z]

Saiyan beyond God went out of the window when Freeza needed Gold to endure an attack from SS2 Cabba.

He just did that so he would take 0 damage. Frieza was about to attack ssj2 Caulifla and controlled berserk Kale at the same time in his final form. Not saying saiyan beyond god exists, but that example isn't really the best.

If his base was on par with SBG, he wouldn't have needed to transform to take zero damage at all.

Ya I don't think saiyan beyond god is a thing. I think base Goku and Frieza are around mystic Gohan tier. Which is strong enough to beat ssj3 Gotenks but not so strong where they can completely tank U6 ssj2 attacks.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

He just did that so he would take 0 damage. Frieza was about to attack ssj2 Caulifla and controlled berserk Kale at the same time in his final form. Not saying saiyan beyond god exists, but that example isn't really the best.

If his base was on par with SBG, he wouldn't have needed to transform to take zero damage at all.

Ya I don't think saiyan beyond god is a thing. I think base Goku and Frieza are around mystic Gohan tier. Which is strong enough to beat ssj3 Gotenks but not so strong where they can completely tank U6 ssj2 attacks.

It doesn't even have to be that. My current headcanon is that in terms of "pure power", Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, etc. are around as strong as Buucolo, after Gotenks defused within Buutenks. Thus, Ultimate Gohan is still extremely strong and would've still been impressive even without powering up to near-god-level as he has now.