Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

I mean, the show pretty much tells us that the likes of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Freeza are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

I don't buy it. That moment has never sat well with me and various things have stepped in to (confusingly) contradict it since then, so I don't personlly take it as something legitimate that was planned. Seems more like a case of stupid, careless writing that has since been overwritten by other stupid, careless writing... which seems to decribe DBS in general.

But, that's just me.

I have this difficulty as well. In the same fight Goku can make a fool of a SS2 without transforming, then they begin fighting equally in the same form, then Goku is ahead again, then she catchs up to Goku again.

My personal headcannon is that they wanted to portray Gotenks as an amateur, while Goku and Vegeta as veterans, so it would matter in which form they fight.

I have had to come up with pure headcanon too. The following is just an idea:

I tried to merge some concept of Goku's strong Base form, strong SS1 form from Ep. 14, SSGod, and SSBlue. I thought that when Goku lost SSGod, he gained a "Godly Base Form" and "Godly Super Saiyan Form", per say. So, after the Battle of Gods, he had Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Godly Base/Godly SS1. This is what we saw when he was fighting Beerus in Ep. 14 and stopping the sun ball that would destroy earth.

Then when training with Whis, he learns of perfect ki control (which is god ki). Goku easily learns to perfect his ki in the Godly SS1 form. It came easier because of his training with SS1 Grade 4 in the Cell Saga. Once Goku achieved perfect ki control over Godly SS1, it resulted in SSBlue.

Goku then has Godly Base form for a while (against RoF Frieza, Copy-Vegeta, etc.). Perfecting ki control in Base form is not as easy for him to do, but once he does, this Godly Base turns into SSGod. That's why we see the re-emergence of SSGod so close to the introduction of Ultra Instinct (Self-Movement). Goku was incorporating a lot of what Whis taught him during the Tournament of Power. This can also apply to Vegeta too. He probably obtained SSGod without five other Saiyans, and then after the time limit got "Godly Base" and "Godly SS1". At this point Vegeta has only perfected ki control in Godly SS1, resulting in SSBlue.

[Bullza]

Do you think Goku used Super Saiyan Blue so much and in fights where it seemed like he shouldn't because it just has better Ki control than say Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God?

Like how Goku used the form to fire a Kamehameha to match Krillin's and used the form to put out a "little" more power against Kale.

Do you think he could do that in other forms? Or is it just Super Saiyan Blue where he can freely fluctuate his power from 1 to 100 perfectly?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Do you think Goku used Super Saiyan Blue so much and in fights where it seemed like he shouldn't because it just has better Ki control than say Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God?

Like how Goku used the form to fire a Kamehameha to match Krillin's and used the form to put out a "little" more power against Kale.

Do you think he could do that in other forms? Or is it just Super Saiyan Blue where he can freely fluctuate his power from 1 to 100 perfectly?

The post I have right above what you wrote took me A LOT of thinking, but it made so much sense to me. It can also explain if Vegeta ever gets SSGod. We can say that he had a Godly Base (Copy-Vegeta, RoF Frieza fights, etc.), but he only recently learned how to perfect ki control in his Godly Base, just like he does in his Godly SS1.

Goku seems ahead of him because SSBlue is probably easier to have control over since they practically mastered ki control to such a high level with Super Saiyan Grade 4. SSGod is a weaker form, but harder to perfect the ki control for. This results in the Godly Base, since Vegeta hasn't perfected it yet.

I 100% believe that Goku uses SSBlue because he feels so comfortable with it. SS1 and SSBlue are his most comfortable forms BECAUSE of the ki control he has perfected. SS2, SS3, and SSGod he still uses frequently, but they are not as natural to him as SS1 and SSBlue.

It is like people who are ambidextrous. They can use both hands (Goku can use SS1/SSB and SS2/SS3/SSG), but there is still one hand that comes more natural to them than the other (SS1/SSB come more naturally than SS2/SS3/SSG).

[SansrivaaL]

Do you think Goku used Super Saiyan Blue so much and in fights where it seemed like he shouldn't because it just has better Ki control than say Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God?

Like how Goku used the form to fire a Kamehameha to match Krillin's and used the form to put out a "little" more power against Kale.

Do you think he could do that in other forms? Or is it just Super Saiyan Blue where he can freely fluctuate his power from 1 to 100 perfectly?

Good point, we never saw him use any other forms outside SSJ and SSJB that showed perfect ki control, more so in SSJB since he can stack up KK again.
I'm sticking with this theory of yours until proven wrong when he uses SSJG,SSJ2,SSJ3 and can manipulate its ki to the point of a fodder like Krillin pushing his wave back.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess it’s really simple. If he can do more he can do less. The transformations only amplify the range of power he can output.

[Marlowe89]

If Beerus and other characters can suppress their power to a huge degree I don't see why Goku can't, regardless of the form used.

[Lord Beerus]

If Beerus and other characters can suppress their power to a huge degree I don't see why Goku can't, regardless of the form used.

I really can't believe that the idea of character regulating their strength to their specific demands has become such an issue in the fandom. Even though we've seen so many instances where characters obviously hold back, even when they're monstrously powerful. The characters have doing this since Namek.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If Beerus and other characters can suppress their power to a huge degree I don't see why Goku can't, regardless of the form used.

I really can't believe that the idea of character regulating their strength to their specific demands has become such an issue in the fandom. Even though we've seen so many instances where characters obviously hold back, even when they're monstrously powerful. The characters have doing this since Namek.

I think it's mainly the degree and frequency to which fighters do it nowadays.

Back then, whilst it was still a thing, I will admit it wasn't used as frequently or as purposely as it is now. That's another of the problems of serial escalation, as upper tiers of power need to dial things down to allow for lower tiers to have their chance to shine.

[Lord Beerus]

If Beerus and other characters can suppress their power to a huge degree I don't see why Goku can't, regardless of the form used.

I really can't believe that the idea of character regulating their strength to their specific demands has become such an issue in the fandom. Even though we've seen so many instances where characters obviously hold back, even when they're monstrously powerful. The characters have doing this since Namek.

I think it's mainly the degree and frequency to which fighters do it nowadays.

Back then, whilst it was still a thing, I will admit it wasn't used as frequently or as purposely as it is now. That's another of the problems of serial escalation, as upper tiers of power need to dial things down to allow for lower tiers to have their chance to shine.

There have only really two occasions where a character has deliberately handicapped themselves that I've found jarring. In Episode 84 and Episode 108.

But even in the case of Episode 84, it's pretty the context wasn't that Krillin was SSJB tier, and the intention from Goku was to test Krillin mentality when faced with a character that he has no idea on how to gauge their power. So that's forgivable.

Episode 108 isn't. Goha couldn't easily went Ultimate and ended his fight with Jimeze instantly.

Plus, given the context that Whis provided that Goku is pacing himself, I can tolerate instances where Goku doesn't just use SSJB all the time, or when he uses, he strictly regulates how much power he uses in that form.

[AvatarReiko]

So does Goku's godly base explain how he managed fight on par with 4th Form Frieza, who previously one shotted Gohan.

Would Kafla be comparable to current Base Vegito?

[HeroR]

So does Goku's godly base explain how he managed fight on par with 4th Form Frieza, who previously one shotted Gohan.

Goku doesn't have a 'godly base' since his base form never had a god ki. His base form was just much, much stronger than Gohan's.

[AvatarReiko]

So does Goku's godly base explain how he managed fight on par with 4th Form Frieza, who previously one shotted Gohan.

Goku doesn't have a 'godly base' since his base form never had a god ki. His base form was just much, much stronger than Gohan's.

So why didn't Goku use normal SSJ forms at all during ROF? The movie seemed to imply that he had a godly base. I also remember Beerus specifically stating that he absorbed the god power into himself. Hence, how a normal SSJ Goku could fight Beerus, who previously 2 shotted his SSJ3 form with ease

[HeroR]

So why didn't Goku use normal SSJ forms at all during ROF? The movie seemed to imply that he had a godly base. I also remember Beerus specifically stating that he absorbed the god power into himself. Hence, how a normal SSJ Goku could fight Beerus, who previously 2 shotted his SSJ3 form with ease

Why would he? His base form alone was stronger than true form Freeza and when he went Blue after he told Freeza he was going all out and Freeza should do the same. In other words, playtime was over since Vegeta was getting impatient.

Also, he absorbed Super Saiyan God, but he his Super Saiyan form didn't have god ki since everyone sensed him. The Resurrection 'F' movie never implied that Goku's base form had god ki. Only that it was extremely powerful that it shocked his friends and Freeza.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So does Goku's godly base explain how he managed fight on par with 4th Form Frieza, who previously one shotted Gohan.

Goku doesn't have a 'godly base' since his base form never had a god ki. His base form was just much, much stronger than Gohan's.

So why didn't Goku use normal SSJ forms at all during ROF? The movie seemed to imply that he had a godly base. I also remember Beerus specifically stating that he absorbed the god power into himself. Hence, how a normal SSJ Goku could fight Beerus, who previously 2 shotted his SSJ3 form with ease

The most likely answer is that the production staff for the anime didn't have any mention of the normal SS forms when they got their outline from Toriyama, and the scenarios presented didn't really require its inclusion.

Normal SS is inferior to SSB in every way except stamina as we later learn, and the scenarios presented mainly revolve around base Goku and Vegeta being a match for Final Form Freeza but not being able to defeat him and knowing he has godly levels of power tucked away, same as them. A fight between super-strong base levels and god-level forms was probably the main idea in the outline.

In-universe, one could say that Freeza would've just gone 100% bulked up and taken on SS Goku, or he would've gone Golden and thus necessitated SSB anyways.

It's "Early Installment Weirdness", really, where the staff likely hadn't yet found their proper footing for how they wanted to make the series distinct from the movies yet. Getting stronger overall from absorbing SSG's power and Whis's training are all still a thing, it's just being as strong as SSG in their normal forms has been quietly let go.

[HeroR]

Goku doesn't have a 'godly base' since his base form never had a god ki. His base form was just much, much stronger than Gohan's.

So why didn't Goku use normal SSJ forms at all during ROF? The movie seemed to imply that he had a godly base. I also remember Beerus specifically stating that he absorbed the god power into himself. Hence, how a normal SSJ Goku could fight Beerus, who previously 2 shotted his SSJ3 form with ease

The most likely answer is that the production staff for the anime didn't have any mention of the normal SS forms when they got their outline from Toriyama, and the scenarios presented didn't really require its inclusion.

Normal SS is inferior to SSB in every way except stamina as we later learn, and the scenarios presented mainly revolve around base Goku and Vegeta being a match for Final Form Freeza but not being able to defeat him and knowing he has godly levels of power tucked away, same as them. A fight between super-strong base levels and god-level forms was probably the main idea in the outline.

In-universe, one could say that Freeza would've just gone 100% bulked up and taken on SS Goku, or he would've gone Golden and thus necessitated SSB anyways.

It's "Early Installment Weirdness", really, where the staff likely hadn't yet found their proper footing for how they wanted to make the series distinct from the movies yet. Getting stronger overall from absorbing SSG's power and Whis's training are all still a thing, it's just being as strong as SSG in their normal forms has been quietly let go.

I don't think so since those things are still implied even now. Even in the Champa Saga, it was stated that Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and gained its power in at least his Super Saiyan form. If Toriyama quietly let these things go, it he would have told the staff at least by the Champa Saga. Especially since the retellings was his idea.

And again, Goku's base form was more than enough for true form Frieza, especially in the movie where Goku nearly killed Freeza in his base form alone, and Goku went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since he told Freeza he was going all out and Freeza should do the same. So it wouldn't make any sense for Goku to used his lower Super Saiyan forms or Freeza to 'bulk up'.

[ekrolo2]

The Super staff seem to treat Blue as really adaptable power wise to where Goku can make it next to nothing of an increase to being the biggest.

Something that would feel less awkward if they just told the other stuff to fuck off into disuse and really made Blue the all purpose form they're writing it as.

[BlueVegerot]

Tell me what you think of my list:

Raw Power only


Goku > Vegeta > Mystic Gohan >= Rage Trunks >=Controlled Berserk Kale > Caulifla > Cabba

[Bullza]

Well Goku did say something about Super Saiyan Blue having proper Ki control when he first turned Super Saiyan. It was obviously something he couldn't do with his other forms so there was a difference.

We saw when Goku fought Arale and he was Super Saiyan Blue that he fired one Kamehameha and then prepared to fire another that was 100 times stronger so he can suppress his power all the way down to 1%.

I'm not sure if he can do the same with the other forms at least to that extent.

[ekrolo2]

Well Goku did say something about Super Saiyan Blue having proper Ki control when he first turned Super Saiyan. It was obviously something he couldn't do with his other forms so there was a difference.

We saw when Goku fought Arale and he was Super Saiyan Blue that he fired one Kamehameha and then prepared to fire another that was 100 times stronger so he can suppress his power all the way down to 1%.

I'm not sure if he can do the same with the other forms at least to that extent.

SS1 did after mastery but that's been retconned away to make Blue look better.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well Goku did say something about Super Saiyan Blue having proper Ki control when he first turned Super Saiyan. It was obviously something he couldn't do with his other forms so there was a difference.

We saw when Goku fought Arale and he was Super Saiyan Blue that he fired one Kamehameha and then prepared to fire another that was 100 times stronger so he can suppress his power all the way down to 1%.

I'm not sure if he can do the same with the other forms at least to that extent.

SS1 did after mastery but that's been retconned away to make Blue look better.

I'm pretty sure the original SS form's only real mastery of mention was its stamina. Sure, that meant better control over Ki, but more in the sense that you can use it efficiently without it all draining away in battle.

SSB's Ki control is something else entirely, along with its calm heart, that allows it to be used with an intensely stressful technique like Kaio-ken in a way that regular SS can't despite its better stamina. I think I remember one part of the explanation being that SS has a wild and untamed Ki and brings about intensity in the heart despite how it doesn't hit the user's body as badly as SSB.