Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

Kefla isn't using "ordinary" Super Saiyan you guys, her hair is clearly greenish like Kale in her Berserker Form and Broly. So she's in Kale's "Controlled Berserker State" now. An incredible increase over Base. Now i suspect when Goku goes Ultra Instinct, she will likely power up to "Controlled Berserker SSJ3" Or, as Heroes used to call "Legendary Super Saiyan 3".
This all should be obvious. If she was a regular Super Saiyan, she should've had yellow/golden coloured hair. Not greenish. It's right there.

[dragon boss z]

In Future Trunks Saga, Vegeta clearly outplayed Goku after training on RoSaT.

I disagree. Goku's kamehameha did more damage than Vegeta and Trunk's combined galic gun on Zamasu. And I'm pretty sure Black said Vegeta's boost was from rage or something. Goku did the same thing when Black told him he killed Chi chi and Trunks.

[AvatarReiko]

Guys, how does SSJ Ikari stack up to nomal SSJG?

Who???

Trunks, of course. He's the only person to attain the form

[Hugo Boss]

I was thinking of posting this in the non thread discussion but felt like this was a better place to ask. What criteria do you guys use to determine who is stronger than who and where they are at? I wanted to ask because there was one comment saying that Piccolo is stronger than Mystic / Ultimate Gohan from when he sparred with him back in the recruitment episodes but I don't know about that...when I watch videos of, Maximilian Dood for example, I'm not going to say the buttom masher is better than he is definitively just because the button masher got lucky and won.

My criteria are basically power, skill, reaction timing and defense. If I were to give an example of character who reunites these qualities very well it would be Jiren. In your example, Piccolo lectured Gohan to not decide a fight only by strength.

[AvatarReiko]

The spoilers seem to indicate that Goku vs LSSJ Kalfa will be closer than we originally. She is shown to be struggling and is battle damaged

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In Future Trunks Saga, Vegeta clearly outplayed Goku after training on RoSaT.

I disagree. Goku's kamehameha did more damage than Vegeta and Trunk's combined galic gun on Zamasu. And I'm pretty sure Black said Vegeta's boost was from rage or something. Goku did the same thing when Black told him he killed Chi chi and Trunks.

Both of these are true, but in terms of "pure strength", Vegeta WAS stronger than Goku without the Kaio-ken at the time.

Vegeta used his rage to get stronger in the Room of Spirit & Time, but he wasn't actually using a rage boost when he fought Goku Black again. More likely, he used something akin to a rage boost to allow him to surpass his limits and get stronger overall.

As for Goku's Kamehameha, bear in mind that it was no ordinary one, but a Full-Power Kamehameha. This one's from the videogames, and is the most powerful version of the move ever seen. The Kamehameha has been noted as a move that can be powered up quite a bit beyond the user's normal power level, so a Full-Power Kamehameha that uses up so much power that Goku's hands are left useless afterwards is A LOT OF F**KING POWER. That's an attack that may surpass his limits more than something like the Makkankosappo or Final Flash.

Also, it's possible that Vegeta, despite being stronger than Goku without Kaio-ken at the time, wasn't orders and orders of magnitude stronger. Just enough that he can stomp all over Goku Black using traditional DBZ power gap logic.

[dragon boss z]

In Future Trunks Saga, Vegeta clearly outplayed Goku after training on RoSaT.

I disagree. Goku's kamehameha did more damage than Vegeta and Trunk's combined galic gun on Zamasu. And I'm pretty sure Black said Vegeta's boost was from rage or something. Goku did the same thing when Black told him he killed Chi chi and Trunks.

Both of these are true, but in terms of "pure strength", Vegeta WAS stronger than Goku without the Kaio-ken at the time.

Vegeta used his rage to get stronger in the Room of Spirit & Time, but he wasn't actually using a rage boost when he fought Goku Black again. More likely, he used something akin to a rage boost to allow him to surpass his limits and get stronger overall.

As for Goku's Kamehameha, bear in mind that it was no ordinary one, but a Full-Power Kamehameha. This one's from the videogames, and is the most powerful version of the move ever seen. The Kamehameha has been noted as a move that can be powered up quite a bit beyond the user's normal power level, so a Full-Power Kamehameha that uses up so much power that Goku's hands are left useless afterwards is A LOT OF F**KING POWER. That's an attack that may surpass his limits more than something like the Makkankosappo or Final Flash.

Also, it's possible that Vegeta, despite being stronger than Goku without Kaio-ken at the time, wasn't orders and orders of magnitude stronger. Just enough that he can stomp all over Goku Black using traditional DBZ power gap logic.

Goku never even fought Black when they came back tot he future for the last time though, so we don't know how he would of fared. And the full power kamehameha isn't really a different attack, Goku just actually used his full power that time. Vegeta may of been stronger but we really don't know, and even if he was it was Toei's decision, as the manga had Goku much stronger than Vegeta since he mastered SSB.

[Bullza]

Kefla isn't using "ordinary" Super Saiyan you guys, her hair is clearly greenish like Kale in her Berserker Form and Broly. So she's in Kale's "Controlled Berserker State" now. An incredible increase over Base. Now i suspect when Goku goes Ultra Instinct, she will likely power up to "Controlled Berserker SSJ3" Or, as Heroes used to call "Legendary Super Saiyan 3".
This all should be obvious. If she was a regular Super Saiyan, she should've had yellow/golden coloured hair. Not greenish. It's right there.

Didn't Kale have Greenish hair as an ordinary Super Saiyan anyway though?

[Noah]

Didn't Kale have Greenish hair as an ordinary Super Saiyan anyway though?

It was her controlled LSSJ form, mate.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Didn't Kale have Greenish hair as an ordinary Super Saiyan anyway though?

It was her controlled LSSJ form, mate.

Not quite. When she initially calmed down as the two female Saiyans were being attacked by Universe 11's Pride Troopers, she attained a SS form that's buffer than her normal form (though not significantly buffer and only marginally taller) and has green hair.

When she and Caulifla fight Goku as he's a SS2, Kale has the same green-haired SS form. However, when she powers up to Berserk and then controls it, the form is distinctly different from her normal green-haired SS, as it's taller, buffer, and has Broly-like hair.

So, Kale has two distinct green-haired SS forms, a "normal" one and a "buff" one. Kefla seems to be making use of the former, although how strong it is in comparison to base form is unknown.

[Bullza]

Didn't Kale have Greenish hair as an ordinary Super Saiyan anyway though?

It was her controlled LSSJ form, mate.

No I mean the one before that.

The slim Super Saiyan appearance that she had when she fought the Pride Troopers. What Goku was fighting against just recently, before the last episode.

That was just Super Saiyan wasn't it? When she wasn't in control of the Berserk form.

[Marlowe89]

That was just Super Saiyan wasn't it? When she wasn't in control of the Berserk form.

Most likely, yes. I just rewatched those episodes and her hair is distinctly not as green as the other form, only having a very slight green tint instead.

So there's a regular Super Saiyan form and then there's a Legendary/Berserk Super Saiyan form with an uncontrolled and a controlled state.

[dbzfan7]

So Potara>God/blue?

or

Tired Blue/KKBlue<God Fresh?

[Lord Beerus]

Episode 115:

- Pretty much pick up from where we left off from last week... fatigued SSJG Goku on the back foot against Base Kafla
- Toppo gains some offence on SSJB Vegeta. And gets Vegeta in the same bearhug that he had SSJ Goku trapped in during their match at the Zen Exhibition Match(es)
- Helles throws her Potara into the stadium for two of her fighters to fuse, like Kale and Caulifa did. But Zarbuto can't put the earring on because of his head gear and can't fuse with Rabanra (who put on the other earring). Kafla barges into the both of them and coincidentally destroy both of earrings.
- Goku powers up to SSJB, and in response, Kalfa becomes a SSJ. And they duke it out.
- SSJB Goku vs SSJ Kafla is dead even. But Champa seems sure that Kalfa will win mainly because Goku's tired.
- SSJB Goku stacks Kaioken on top. Beerus questions why Goku is doing this as he still has not recovered his stamina. Whis states that Goku has no other choice but to do this as he would have no chance against SSJ Kafla.
- SSJB Vegeta breaks free from Toppo's bearhug
- SSJB Kaioken Goku deflects a blast from SSJ Kafla, out maneuvers SSJ Kafla and sends her flying into a across the stage with one punch.
- SSJ Kafla throws some ki blast at SSJB Kaioken Goku and Goku responds with a Kamehameha...
- But that was a distraction! SSJ Kafla catches SSJB Kaioken off-guard and kick him in the head, sending him flying. And coincidentally, Goku is out of energy.
- Goku goes ULTRA INSTINCT
- Goku instinctively dodges and deflects all of SSJ Kafla's ki blasts
- NEP show SSJ Kafla is on the ropes against Ultra Instinct Goku

[Zamasu55]

They literally don't know what the hell they're doing anymore.
Goku was dominating Kafla but suddenly loses, without a proper explanation.
Embarassing.

[IKevinX]

I think this was a good resolution all things considered.
God Goku not once used SSJ God's aura and instead he went straight to SSJ Blue.
Whereas Kefla went SSJ Berserker Controlled... or Slim SSJB and she kept up with Blue Goku.
However he had to use Kaioken to gain the upper hand but they seemed even.

I think it's now safer to point out that Goku only lost because he's weaker/tired/damaged.
And that screws less the powerscalling.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Apparently, there is not a great difference of powers between SSJ Kefura and SSB Goku. Goku used the Kaioken because he was still tired and his remaining strength in SSB would not be enough.

So I believe it would be something like Kefura SSJ = or > Goku SSB 100%

Anyway, the level is similar

And Goku SSB Kaioken 100%¨> Kefura SSJ

[TheMikado]

The only thing that I care about is whether UI is a strength based form or not.

For the record I really hate the name of that form.

[Marlowe89]

So Potara>God/blue?

or

Tired Blue/KKBlue<God Fresh?

I'm gonna say the latter, honestly. Champa explicitly clarified on two separate occasions that Kefla had an advantage against Goku because he was short on stamina, once as a Super Saiyan God and again as a Super Saiyan Blue. Vados herself even doubted that Kefla could stand up to Blue until Champa made the second comment about Goku lacking stamina.

Now I'm pretty confident that Goku was only losing because he was exhausted.

[brett wheeler]

The only thing that I care about is whether UI is a strength based form or not.

For the record I really hate the name of that form.

From the way they where showing it off, and from the statements made, it appears to be more of a transformation than anything, kinda like goku is transforming into a new state of being in a sense.