Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Remember Luffy's fights with crocodile? His 3 fights with crocodile in which he was critically wounded multiple times.

Or Zoro's against Mr.1 where he delivered his strongest attack yet and was still able to fight afterwards despite being badly before hand.

Thats generally what I'm getting at. Fighting which allows characters to overcome their limits and continue on stronger than ever despite being injured, often gravely.

Oh God yeah, I hate it when they do that. The only thing that pisses me off more is when they say things like "Don't do X! If you do X you will 100% die for sure!" and then of course they don't die. It's especially obnoxious since writers REALLY over emphasize the lethality of X to the point of self parody and yet still fail to produce a fucking corpse by the end.

Well, Chaozu did die when he blew up.

I was thinking more along the lines of initial KK Blue apparently having a 90% chance of killing you but then Goku can amp it up by ten more times without immediately dropping dead.

[Marlowe89]

If we also factor in that SSG now only gives a marginal few times boost over the highest form behind it, SS3's 400 times boost, thanks to how strong Goku is in base form, then it's easy to see why base Kefla could take on a somewhat tired SSG Goku. Remember, even if SSG is now only a few thousand times stronger than base Goku, that's still a base Goku easily at the level of Majin Buu in both mediums, more than enough to surpass Vegito during Battle of Gods but not anymore.

Sorry but no, there's nothing to support that. BoG specifically insinuated that Super Saiyan God gives a greater power increase than Potara fusion, and it's not like this was soft-retconned either since even the latest manga chapter literally outright states that the form is in a whole different ballpark compared to the first three Super Saiyan stages. Base Goku could be as strong as 10 Beeruses for all I care and the multiplier is still going to remain the same as the other transformations -- there's nothing in particular to suggest that it was the only one that was reduced for some reason.

This whole notion that SSG must only provide a marginal boost from SS3 isn't particularly logical at all and I'm not even really sure where that whole misinterpretation came from. There's not much to suggest it and plenty to contradict it, even in the anime. The actual explanation given for Goku's poor performance via dialogue was a stamina-related one, not this.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If we also factor in that SSG now only gives a marginal few times boost over the highest form behind it, SS3's 400 times boost, thanks to how strong Goku is in base form, then it's easy to see why base Kefla could take on a somewhat tired SSG Goku. Remember, even if SSG is now only a few thousand times stronger than base Goku, that's still a base Goku easily at the level of Majin Buu in both mediums, more than enough to surpass Vegito during Battle of Gods but not anymore.

Sorry but no, there's nothing to support that. BoG specifically insinuated that Super Saiyan God gives a greater power increase than Potara fusion, and it's not like this was soft-retconned either since even the latest manga chapter literally outright states that the form is in a whole different ballpark compared to the first three Super Saiyan stages. Base Goku could be as strong as 10 Beeruses for all I care and the multiplier is still going to remain the same as the other transformations -- there's nothing in particular to suggest that it was the only one that was reduced for some reason.

This whole notion that SSG must only provide a marginal boost from SS3 isn't particularly logical at all and I'm not even really sure where that whole misinterpretation came from. There's not much to suggest it and plenty to contradict it, even in the anime. The actual explanation given for Goku's poor performance via dialogue was a stamina-related one, not this.

Okay then, so SSG is most definitely hundreds of times stronger than its initial appearance, right? Because Goku as a whole is at minimum that much stronger himself. And Ultimate gives Gohan a boost hundreds of times proportionately larger than it used to give his base form to be able to approach SSB Goku, whom he is equal to in equivalent forms, right?

Because that's exactly what's insinuated when people say that SSG gives a greater boost than a current Potara Fusion. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't give as massive of a proportional boost as it did back in Battle of Gods. Remember, PROPORTIONAL. Proportionally speaking, Potara Fusion WAS lower than SSG's boost at the time. But I personally don't think that's the case anymore.

[Marlowe89]

Okay then, so SSG is most definitely hundreds of times stronger than its initial appearance, right? Because Goku as a whole is at minimum that much stronger himself. And Ultimate gives Gohan a boost hundreds of times proportionately larger than it used to give his base form to be able to approach SSB Goku, whom he is equal to in equivalent forms, right?

However much stronger you think base Goku became (I'm not sure where you're getting the hundreds-at-minimum figure from, but sure, we'll work with that for this example), yes, Super Saiyan God is going to be proportionally that many times more powerful as well. As I've said before, there's no particular reason to think that Super Saiyan God suddenly doesn't have its own multiplier anymore unlike literally every other SS transformation in Goku's arsenal. Numerical boosts that exist independently of the user's strength is how power-ups have generally ALWAYS worked in this franchise, both in Z and in Super.

So if SSG's multiplier remains what it was in the BoG arc, and there's absolutely no reason it shouldn't, then it's always going to be vastly stronger than SS3 regardless of how powerful Goku's base strength becomes. Indeed, that's exactly what both the manga and anime have been suggesting at multiple points even within this very arc and again, the latest manga chapter essentially (re)confirms it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay then, so SSG is most definitely hundreds of times stronger than its initial appearance, right? Because Goku as a whole is at minimum that much stronger himself. And Ultimate gives Gohan a boost hundreds of times proportionately larger than it used to give his base form to be able to approach SSB Goku, whom he is equal to in equivalent forms, right?

However much stronger you think base Goku became (I'm not sure where you're getting the 100-at-minimum figure from, but sure, we'll work with that for this example), yes, Super Saiyan God is going to be proportionally that many times more powerful as well. As I've said before, there's no particular reason to think that Super Saiyan God suddenly doesn't have its own multiplier anymore unlike literally every other SS transformation in Goku's arsenal. Numerical boosts that exist independently of the user's strength is how power-ups have generally always worked in the series, both in Z and in Super.

So if SSG's multiplier remains what it was in the BoG arc, and there's absolutely no reason it shouldn't, then it's always going to be vastly stronger than SS3 regardless of how powerful Goku's base strength becomes. Indeed, that's exactly what both the manga and anime have been suggesting at multiple points even within this very arc and again, the latest manga chapter basically confirms it.

The hundreds is from how strong base Goku has been portrayed in both mediums and the SEG multipliers for the regular SS forms. Goku, at minimum, is AT LEAST as strong as Cell, and very likely much higher, so easily over a hundred times stronger, almost certainly as strong as Majin Buu, if he can easily take what knocked out all the Kaioshin without feeling a thing or fight with the likes of SS3 Gotenks and Final Form Freeza. He's also due to fight Uub in 3 years, a kid who can briefly bring out Pure Buu's latent power that he almost had to take seriously once Uub did so.

Also, I never said SSG wasn't a huge boost. It's still on another level compared to his normal forms, that much is certain. I just don't think it's such a high pedestal that it's completely insurmountable with plain old normal multiplication. We have to remember that the god forms don't work on the exact same logic as the regular forms. Goku isn't so much as multiplying his strength using the power of SSG; he's more like tapping into it. For example, SSB isn't 50 times stronger than SSG, because it's tapping into that power with SS to make it stronger. In the same vein, rather than multiplying his power with SSG, he's tapping into the SSG power to bring out what he used against Beerus. Basically, no set multiplication, just a potential unlock of sorts, albeit one that doesn't reside within.

He can be as much as 10 times stronger than SS3 and still be on "another level" but also surpassed with plain old multiplication. Factor in depleted stamina IN ADDITION TO this, and we have our answer.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Once again, I see people losing their sh*t over NOTHING.

Think of it like this. If a Potara Fusion that's as compatible as Vegito can produce a warrior thousands of times stronger than the sum of his/her parts no matter how strong they get later on, that's a pretty big multiplication.

If we also factor in that SSG now only gives a marginal few times boost over the highest form behind it, SS3's 400 times boost, thanks to how strong Goku is in base form, then it's easy to see why base Kefla could take on a somewhat tired SSG Goku. Remember, even if SSG is now only a few thousand times stronger than base Goku, that's still a base Goku easily at the level of Majin Buu in both mediums, more than enough to surpass Vegito during Battle of Gods but not anymore.

We also see that SSB Goku can briefly give some trouble to SS Kefla, but he quickly realizes he needs Kaio-ken to take her on. Again, understandable if SSB is only a few times stronger than SSG and SS still gives a 50 times boost to Kefla.

There are also some nice examples in the other fights. Katsopera has immense speed, enough that 18 can barely react whilst 17 can. We also have Piccolo and Gohan against the Universe 6 Namekians and doing quite alright. Gohan can push back their blasts with a Masenk and literally STOMPS Pirina's arm off. I'm surprised such a large amount of blood got past the censorship, but then again, Namekians are a free pass for kid-friendly dismemberment

And the Ultra Instinct! Once again, it shows it's not JUST a traditional power boost.

In fact, this EP showed a big power difference between SSB and SSG for me.

With the SSG (tired), Goku could not even face Kefla base. After turning into SSB (tired) he was able to rival Kefla SSJ Berserker (a form that left Kale above the Goku SSJ3).

Goku only activated the Kaioken because his remaining strength in SSB would not be enough (after all, he was still recovering)

[Bullza]

How would you rank these three characters?

Dyspo
Ribrianne
Base Kefla

[JazzMazz]

How would you rank these three characters?

Dyspo
Ribrianne
Base Kefla

I would rank Kelfa Base as the strongest.

Dyspo weaker, though not that far behind.

And Ribrianne dead last, seriously, there is nothing to suggest she is even close to either of their levels.

[Marlowe89]

The hundreds is from how strong base Goku has been portrayed in both mediums and the SEG multipliers for the regular SS forms. Goku, at minimum, is AT LEAST as strong as Cell, and very likely much higher, so easily over a hundred times stronger, almost certainly as strong as Majin Buu, if he can easily take what knocked out all the Kaioshin without feeling a thing or fight with the likes of SS3 Gotenks and Final Form Freeza. He's also due to fight Uub in 3 years, a kid who can briefly bring out Pure Buu's latent power that he almost had to take seriously once Uub did so.

He was shaken up by Rumsshi's roar though, and as I've mentioned in a previous post, Shin's power level is absolutely debatable -- I don't have him that much higher than Z-era Piccolo, and he certainly appeared to be weaker than Buu Saga SS Goku. Again though, this topic isn't even tangentially related to the strength boost provided by Super Saiyan God. It almost seems as if you're trying to argue that SSG's power increase was reduced as a means of suggesting that base Goku must have become much stronger than before, but those are two entirely different factors at play.

Also, I never said SSG wasn't a huge boost. It's still on another level compared to his normal forms, that much is certain. I just don't think it's such a high pedestal that it's completely insurmountable with plain old normal multiplication. We have to remember that the god forms don't work on the exact same logic as the regular forms. Goku isn't so much as multiplying his strength using the power of SSG; he's more like tapping into it. For example, SSB isn't 50 times stronger than SSG, because it's tapping into that power with SS to make it stronger. In the same vein, rather than multiplying his power with SSG, he's tapping into the SSG power to bring out what he used against Beerus. Basically, no set multiplication, just a potential unlock of sorts, albeit one that doesn't reside within.

Okay, this explanation is definitely a bit too headcanon-y for my liking. There's nothing in the entire series implying that the god forms would provide an altogether different kind of increase compared to the regular forms, and by "multiplication" I'm really just referring to the strict numerical boost offered by... well, nearly every transformation in the franchise. If this was a mere "potential unlock" then we'd obviously run into situations where Goku's forms would eventually change their hierarchy and order entirely after a period of time, which wouldn't work because Goku clearly stated that Super Saiyan God (as a form) far surpasses the previous Super Saiyan forms; meaning that the yellow forms would never "catch up" to the god forms because their boosts are all inherently static.

The fact of the matter is this -- if base Goku became strong enough to far outstrip Shin since BoG (when previously he was suggested to have been weaker than Namek Frieza at the time) and the manga is also clear in portraying SSG to be on a completely different level than SS-SS3 in the current arc, that alone reasonably suffices to say that both SSG and SSB are always going to have the same gap from the regular forms that they've had from the start, especially when Goku insinuated as much himself.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay, time to settle it once and for all.

When I say Kaioshin, I mean ALL THE KAIOSHIN. As in, NOT JUST UNIVERSE 7's SHIN. I like using "Kaioshin" rather than "Supreme Kais" more, so that's what I'm sticking with. As for that relationship with strength, I tend to lump the Kaioshin around Cell's level, maybe a little lower, maybe a little higher, maybe even really low, maybe even really high. Cell, whom was the first being in Universe 7 in the past few years to surpass the Kaioshin of Universe 7, all of whom, besides possibly Shin, were easily capable of defeating Freeza before his training.

Add in all the others, with some of them potentially getting close to Majin Buu's level, and we have a Goku that's quite easily hundreds of times stronger than his previous Battle of Gods base strength.

[Doctor.]

With this new information regarding how strong Potara is, doesn't this basically confirm Vegetto Blue (and, by extension, Merged Zamasu) is still stronger than Jiren?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With this new information regarding how strong Potara is, doesn't this basically confirm Vegetto Blue (and, by extension, Merged Zamasu) is still stronger than Jiren?

That all really depends on how much of a difference there is between SSB Vegito and Beerus, and how strong Jiren and in turn the other Hakaishin are compared to characters like SSB Goku or Golden Freeza.

For example, I've done my own calculations and came to the conclusion that Hakaishin level fighters were easily a few thousand times stronger than fighters as strong as Super Saiyan Blue, so Vegito being maybe a little bit stronger than this thanks to the Potara Fusion's boost isn't out of the question.

[Zamasu55]

With this new information regarding how strong Potara is, doesn't this basically confirm Vegetto Blue (and, by extension, Merged Zamasu) is still stronger than Jiren?

No.

[Marlowe89]

When I say Kaioshin, I mean ALL THE KAIOSHIN. As in, NOT JUST UNIVERSE 7's SHIN. I like using "Kaioshin" rather than "Supreme Kais" more, so that's what I'm sticking with. As for that relationship with strength, I tend to lump the Kaioshin around Cell's level, maybe a little lower, maybe a little higher, maybe even really low, maybe even really high. Cell, whom was the first being in Universe 7 in the past few years to surpass the Kaioshin of Universe 7, all of whom, besides possibly Shin, were easily capable of defeating Freeza before his training.

I know what you meant, I just used Shin in my example because he's the only one as to which we have an inkling of how strong he should be. We don't really know how the other Kaioshin compare, at least as far as I recall. We know how Zamasu compares, but Zamasu definitely wouldn't have been knocked out by that roar if he had replaced Gowasu's role anyway.

With this new information regarding how strong Potara is, doesn't this basically confirm Vegetto Blue (and, by extension, Merged Zamasu) is still stronger than Jiren?

Going by what the writers intend? Probably not. The manga flirted with the idea of Vegito Blue maybe surpassing Beerus, but with Jiren it seems to be a well-established certainty.

[Helios518]

With this new information regarding how strong Potara is, doesn't this basically confirm Vegetto Blue (and, by extension, Merged Zamasu) is still stronger than Jiren?

Well considering Beerus felt Cloud Zamasu's ki and remained stoic but felt Geran's ki and exclaimed "Is this really the energy from one warrior?!", I believe otherwise.

[Hugo Boss]

By the way, I have the impression Rumshi’s roar would knock out any being that was below god level. Goku standing and the Kaioshins not implies to me that Goku’s true power is close to the level of the Hakaishins, not that his base form is stronger than the Kaioshins.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

By the way, I have the impression Rumshi’s roar would knock out any being that was below god level. Goku standing and the Kaioshins not implies to me that Goku’s true power is close to the level of the Hakaishins, not that his base form is stronger than the Kaioshins.

Even still, he's set to fight Uub in just 3 years.

Even factoring in that Uub couldn't bring out all of Pure Buu's latent power when he got angry, that's STILL a lot of power to make base Goku "start" to take things seriously.

[BlueVegerot]

Its hard for me to believe that Blue Vegito isn't on par with hakaishins. If base kefla can ragdoll around a ssg goku then considering how much stronger goku and vegeta are overall and in base form, i would say that base vegito could ragdoll ssb goku around and then you go 5 forms ahead, thats like the equivalent of ssb kk x thousands goku.

[AvatarReiko]

So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?

No, I'm sure if you're fast enough then UI could straight up be useless.

So it's basically like observation haki from OP? Where you can still be hit by your opponent if they are faster than your CoO. I guees that would make sense. After all, how can Goku's body react to something that can move a lot faster than it

With this new information regarding how strong Potara is, doesn't this basically confirm Vegetto Blue (and, by extension, Merged Zamasu) is still stronger than Jiren?

What new information?

[HeroR]

With this new information regarding how strong Potara is, doesn't this basically confirm Vegetto Blue (and, by extension, Merged Zamasu) is still stronger than Jiren?

Well considering Beerus felt Cloud Zamasu's ki and remained stoic but felt Geran's ki and exclaimed "Is this really the energy from one warrior?!", I believe otherwise.

Beerus wasn't really stoic since you saw a sweat drop. Beerus also had a clue of how strong Zamasu was since he was a prodigy Supreme Kai. Jiren literally came out of nowhere, which is why Beerus went 'WTF'.