Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

So my interpretation of all this is

*Clearly Super Saiyan God Goku was not at full power because of a lack in stamina. Champa actually says he used a lot of it.

*So would would full power Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Base Kelfa? Who knows.

*A probably less stamina drained Super Saiyan Blue Goku matches a non full power Super Saiyan Kefla. So Super Saiyan Blue would seemingly be about 50 times stronger (maybe more) than Super Saiyan God which I suppose is ok, we suggested if that was the case before. At least know we know it's on a completely different tier entirely.

*Using Kaioken he clearly has the upper hand....until he's suddenly knocked out.

*In the next episode I can't tell what is happening with Kelfa but she still isn't gonna be a match for Ultra Instinct from the looks of it.

So all in all I'd say Super Saiyan Kefla would be stronger than a full power Super Saiyan God but not Super Saiyan Blue if she can only match a drained one.

On a side note, Base Gohan again is keeping up perfectly fine with the Namek fight. Which may or may not be weird depending on how it plays out.

Goku being low on stamina isn't the same as him not having access to his full power since by Beerus' statement, he made it sounds like Goku could used his full power but not for long.

[SaiyanSoul]

As it stands assuming everyone is fresh and at full strength

Vegetto Blue > Beerus > Merged Zamasu/Jiren/UI Goku > SSJBKKx20 Goku/Time Skip Killing Techniques Hitto > SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta/True Golden Frieza > True SSJ Kefla > Toppo > SSJG Goku > Base Kefla > SSJ Berserker Kale > Android 17/Ultimate Gohan > Dyspo > Android 18/SSJ2 Kelfa > Piccolo > SSJ2 Cabba

[BlueVegerot]

I would put controlled berserker kale, gohan and 17 on the same level. Episode 100 and jiren flinching were totally bogus scenes when you consider she couldn't handle ssg goku even with caulifla help. She's strong but i wouldn't put her above gohan or 17.

[HeroR]

As it stands assuming everyone is fresh and at full strength

Vegetto Blue > Beerus > Merged Zamasu/Jiren/UI Goku > SSJBKKx20 Goku/Time Skip Killing Techniques Hitto > SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta/True Golden Frieza > True SSJ Kefla > Toppo > SSJG Goku > Base Kefla > SSJ Berserker Kale > Android 17/Ultimate Gohan > Dyspo > Android 18/SSJ2 Kelfa > Piccolo > SSJ2 Cabba

Why is Vegetto Blue above Jiren? Why is Jiren even behind Beerus? And Hit even with his Time Skip Killing Technique was even with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku with no Kaioken.

I would put controlled berserker kale, gohan and 17 on the same level. Episode 100 and jiren flinching were totally bogus scenes when you consider she couldn't handle ssg goku even with caulifla help. She's strong but i wouldn't put her above gohan or 17.

She took a punch to the face from Super Saiyan God Goku and wasn't even hurt and she scuffled evenly with him. Before she fused, she didn't have a mark on her. That and a weaker Berserk Kale walked through a Blue Kamehameha, something Gohan and 17 have no feats against.

[Bullza]

I would rank Kelfa Base as the strongest.

Dyspo weaker, though not that far behind.

And Ribrianne dead last, seriously, there is nothing to suggest she is even close to either of their levels.

I'd likely place Base Kefla the highest too. She's strong enough to warrant a response from Jiren. I don't know if Dyspo's power would be capable of the same. That said why didn't respond to Golden Frieza?

I dunno about Ribrianne. She fought on par with Android 17 and then powered up further with butterfly wings. She's fought Base Goku, Super Saiyan Vegeta and Android 17 on par so she's all over the place.

If Android 17 wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God then I suppose Ribrianne wouldn't have to be either. Personally I wouldn't think Android 17 was as strong as Super Saiyan God but you can never tell anymore.

[BlueVegerot]

As it stands assuming everyone is fresh and at full strength

Vegetto Blue > Beerus > Merged Zamasu/Jiren/UI Goku > SSJBKKx20 Goku/Time Skip Killing Techniques Hitto > SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta/True Golden Frieza > True SSJ Kefla > Toppo > SSJG Goku > Base Kefla > SSJ Berserker Kale > Android 17/Ultimate Gohan > Dyspo > Android 18/SSJ2 Kelfa > Piccolo > SSJ2 Cabba

Why is Vegetto Blue above Jiren? Why is Jiren even behind Beerus? And Hit even with his Time Skip Killing Technique was even with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku with no Kaioken.

I would put controlled berserker kale, gohan and 17 on the same level. Episode 100 and jiren flinching were totally bogus scenes when you consider she couldn't handle ssg goku even with caulifla help. She's strong but i wouldn't put her above gohan or 17.

She took a punch to the face from Super Saiyan God Goku and wasn't even hurt and she scuffled evenly with him. Before she fused, she didn't have a mark on her. That and a weaker Berserk Kale walked through a Blue Kamehameha, something Gohan and 17 have no feats against.

Gohan traded blows with ssb goku in episode 90 and android 17 blocked a ssb kamehameha in episode 86. We now know he's been totally dicking around vs damn near everyone. Even if you want to say she is stronger, its a small gap

[Hugo Boss]

This week the anime clarified tiredness is the reason Goku is having such difficulty in handling Kafla, which also may justify why she was overwhelming Super Saiyan God in her normal form, but not Super Saiyan Blue in her Super Saiyan form. Finally, she resorted to a distraction to beat Blue combined with kaioken, so that’s a point to Goku.

[HeroR]

Gohan traded blows with ssb goku in episode 90 and android 17 blocked a ssb kamehameha in episode 86. We now know he's been totally dicking around vs damn near everyone. Even if you want to say she is stronger, its a small gap

Gohan struggled with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and had to begged Goku to go all out and 17 used an energy shield.

This week the anime clarified tiredness is the reason Goku is having such difficulty in handling Kafla, which also may justify why she was overwhelming Super Saiyan God in her normal form, but not Super Saiyan Blue in her Super Saiyan form. Finally, she resorted to a distraction to beat Blue combined with kaioken, so that’s a point to Goku.

Tiredness only explains Goku getting one-shotted out of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken.

[ekrolo2]

I would rank Kelfa Base as the strongest.

Dyspo weaker, though not that far behind.

And Ribrianne dead last, seriously, there is nothing to suggest she is even close to either of their levels.

I'd likely place Base Kefla the highest too. She's strong enough to warrant a response from Jiren. I don't know if Dyspo's power would be capable of the same. That said why didn't respond to Golden Frieza?

I dunno about Ribrianne. She fought on par with Android 17 and then powered up further with butterfly wings. She's fought Base Goku, Super Saiyan Vegeta and Android 17 on par so she's all over the place.

If Android 17 wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God then I suppose Ribrianne wouldn't have to be either. Personally I wouldn't think Android 17 was as strong as Super Saiyan God but you can never tell anymore.

Ribrianne's power is like a murder suspect, we're all just gathering evidence to nail her down. Personally, it seems more and more likely she's absolute fodder and the times she's done more impressive things were just anomolies.

[Marlowe89]

This week the anime clarified tiredness is the reason Goku is having such difficulty in handling Kafla, which also may justify why she was overwhelming Super Saiyan God in her normal form, but not Super Saiyan Blue in her Super Saiyan form. Finally, she resorted to a distraction to beat Blue combined with kaioken, so that’s a point to Goku.

Pretty much. Champa was very explicit about attributing Goku's lackluster performance against Kefla specifically to his exhaustion, once as a Super Saiyan God and again as a Super Saiyan Blue, so I'm not quite sure why certain people are having a difficult time accepting this.

I'd probably place a fresh Super Saiyan God Goku somewhere between base Kefla and her unique Super Saiyan form, with Super Saiyan Blue Goku then surpassing that.

[Saturnine]

So SSB is 50 times that of God??? Also, Kefla was lucky Goku wasn't fresh and one shot her with a x10 Or x20 on top of blue. Next episode she's gonna get it.

It definitely isn't, much like SSj in all likelihood isn't 50x base anymore either.

I have SSj blue at 5x God personally. Back in the day we had SSj Vegetto at only 5x stronger than base Vegetto too - due to his unreal (by the standards of those days) power in base, the multiplier was lessened. Of course you could argue that 50x was valid all the way throughout Z, except... oh wait. Gotenks. Already SSj2 Majin Vegeta level in base, he definitely wasn't 50x stronger than that in SSj. That's why 5x for fused characters fit quite neatly there, that would put Gotenks above SSj3 Goku, but not to a silly degree. It would also greatly help accepting that post RoSaT Gotenks was stronger in base than he previously was as a SSj - with a small multiplier like that, his power increase would be plausible. Add to that Ssj Goku being 3000 Kiri after the transformation (making him 600 before it) and you've got grounds enough for quite a sturdy hypothesis. Too bad it started fading away as of 2009 when the SEG came out, because it freaking makes sense!

[Draconic]

Is Goku regaining stamina trough fighting actually mentioned in the show? I only remember it being mentioned as a blurb in a preview (like many other bullshit ones). Maybe I missed something, but everything said about Goku is that he's really tired and making huge efforts in just transforming.

[SansrivaaL]

Is Goku regaining stamina trough fighting actually mentioned in the show? I only remember it being mentioned as a blurb in a preview (like many other bullshit ones). Maybe I missed something, but everything said about Goku is that he's really tired and making huge efforts in just transforming.

Yeah, Goku himself has said it way back on ep 112 when he had that romantic heart to heart back to back talk with Vegeta

[ZombieVito]

As it stands assuming everyone is fresh and at full strength

Vegetto Blue > Beerus > Merged Zamasu/Jiren/UI Goku > SSJBKKx20 Goku/Time Skip Killing Techniques Hitto > SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta/True Golden Frieza > True SSJ Kefla > Toppo > SSJG Goku > Base Kefla > SSJ Berserker Kale > Android 17/Ultimate Gohan > Dyspo > Android 18/SSJ2 Kelfa > Piccolo > SSJ2 Cabba

Didn't Kefla beat SSB Kaioken Goku? She even said she wanted to keep fighting him. I think she wasn't going all out.

Jiren is stronger than Beerus.

Why is 18 stronger than Piccolo again?

[SuperDragoon]

Gohan traded blows with ssb goku in episode 90 and android 17 blocked a ssb kamehameha in episode 86. We now know he's been totally dicking around vs damn near everyone. Even if you want to say she is stronger, its a small gap

Gohan struggled with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and had to begged Goku to go all out and 17 used an energy shield.

This week the anime clarified tiredness is the reason Goku is having such difficulty in handling Kafla, which also may justify why she was overwhelming Super Saiyan God in her normal form, but not Super Saiyan Blue in her Super Saiyan form. Finally, she resorted to a distraction to beat Blue combined with kaioken, so that’s a point to Goku.

Tiredness only explains Goku getting one-shotted out of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken.

To your first response: no. Gohan was toying with SSJ2 Goku and wanted him to get serious. He held his own against SSB Goku. Stop with the Gohan downplay.

[namekiansaiyan]

Gohan traded blows with ssb goku in episode 90 and android 17 blocked a ssb kamehameha in episode 86. We now know he's been totally dicking around vs damn near everyone. Even if you want to say she is stronger, its a small gap

Gohan struggled with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and had to begged Goku to go all out and 17 used an energy shield.

This week the anime clarified tiredness is the reason Goku is having such difficulty in handling Kafla, which also may justify why she was overwhelming Super Saiyan God in her normal form, but not Super Saiyan Blue in her Super Saiyan form. Finally, she resorted to a distraction to beat Blue combined with kaioken, so that’s a point to Goku.

Tiredness only explains Goku getting one-shotted out of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken.

To your first response: no. Gohan was toying with SSJ2 Goku and wanted him to get serious. He held his own against SSB Goku. Stop with the Gohan downplay.

Goku was toying Gohan more like and Goku just went full power to shut him up and show him how far he has to go.

[Hugo Boss]

This week the anime clarified tiredness is the reason Goku is having such difficulty in handling Kafla, which also may justify why she was overwhelming Super Saiyan God in her normal form, but not Super Saiyan Blue in her Super Saiyan form. Finally, she resorted to a distraction to beat Blue combined with kaioken, so that’s a point to Goku.

Tiredness only explains Goku getting one-shotted out of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken.

Why would it be the case in one particular moment and not in the whole fight? I think at least when Goku is using his strongest forms, the lack of stamina should be more relevant. Also, his group has been stating several times he is pushing too far despite his condition, while Champa said two times Goku is handicapped.

[wolflonnie]

List:

[spoiler]- Zeno
- Grand Priest
- Angels
- Jiren
- UI Goku
- SSB Vegetto / Stronger Hakaishins
- Merged Zamasu (Half Corrupted) / Weaker Hakaishins
- Possible range of SSG Vegetto
- Goku SSB KKx20 / Possible range of SS3 Vegetto
- Initial Merged Zamasu / Goku SSB KKx10 / Possible range of SS2 Vegetto
- Toppo / SSB Vegeta / True Golden Frieza / Goku SSB KKx2-5 / Controlled SSBerserk Kefla / Possible range of SS Vegetto
- SSR Goku Black / Possible range of Base Vegetto
- SSB Goku
- SSIKari Trunks
- Hit
- Base Kefla
- SSG Goku
- Controlled SSBerserk Kale
- SSBerserk Kale
- Dyspo / Android 17
- Ultimate Gohan
- SS3 Goku / Future Zamasu
- SS2 Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
- Piccolo / SS2 Goku / SS2 Gohan / SS2 Trunks / SS2 Caulifla / Present Zamasu
- SS2 Cabba
- Majin Buu / Final Form Frost
- Super Saiyans / Android 18 / Ribrianne
- Base Saiyans

In order for Vegetto to be this strong (as well as the other characters), I'll assume base Saiyans aren't that far from Majin Buu. Android 18 got stronger as well... somehow.[/spoiler]

[Doctor.]

List:

[spoiler]- Zeno
- Grand Priest
- Angels
- Jiren
- UI Goku
- SSB Vegetto / Stronger Hakaishins
- Merged Zamasu (Half Corrupted) / Weaker Hakaishins
- Possible range of SSG Vegetto
- Goku SSB KKx20 / Possible range of SS3 Vegetto
- Initial Merged Zamasu / Goku SSB KKx10 / Possible range of SS2 Vegetto
- Toppo / SSB Vegeta / True Golden Frieza / Goku SSB KKx2-5 / Possible range of SS Vegetto
- SSR Goku Black / Controlled SSBerserk Kefla / Possible range of Base Vegetto
- SSB Goku
- SSIKari Trunks
- Hit
- Base Kefla
- SSG Goku
- Controlled SSBerserk Kale
- SSBerserk Kale
- Dyspo / Android 17
- Ultimate Gohan
- SS3 Goku / Future Zamasu
- SS2 Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
- Piccolo / SS2 Goku / SS2 Gohan / SS2 Trunks / SS2 Caulifla / Present Zamasu
- SS2 Cabba
- Majin Buu / Final Form Frost
- Super Saiyans / Android 18 / Ribrianne
- Base Saiyans

In order for Vegetto to be this strong (as well as the other characters), I'll assume base Saiyans aren't that far from Majin Buu. Android 18 got stronger as well... somehow.[/spoiler]

Why do you think SSB Goku and Hit are so weak? Hit did better than Goku did against Jiren and SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have been portrayed as equals even in the Zamasu arc where Vegeta supposedly surpassed him.

[avasatu]

As it stands assuming everyone is fresh and at full strength

Vegetto Blue > Beerus > Merged Zamasu/Jiren/UI Goku > SSJBKKx20 Goku/Time Skip Killing Techniques Hitto > SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta/True Golden Frieza > True SSJ Kefla > Toppo > SSJG Goku > Base Kefla > SSJ Berserker Kale > Android 17/Ultimate Gohan > Dyspo > Android 18/SSJ2 Kelfa > Piccolo > SSJ2 Cabba

Didn't Kefla beat SSB Kaioken Goku? She even said she wanted to keep fighting him. I think she wasn't going all out.

Jiren is stronger than Beerus.

Why is 18 stronger than Piccolo again?

I mostly agree with your corrections, though it's not abundantly clear to me that SS Kafla is above SSB KK Goku. For one, Goku was weakened, and second, he did almost put her down with a single clean shot.

Oh, and to reply to the original list, Vegito Blue is not stronger than Jiren. You can reasonably argue he's stronger than or very near initial Jiren, perhaps, but that's about it. At best, you can't possibly say.