Unpopular DB opinions

[Mystic Buu]

I like Vegeta and the Cell saga.

You made a thread what is Cell saga of Dragon Ball implying that it was bad and now you said that it's good.You really changed yourself and i appreciate it .

[DonZ]

I like Vegeta and the Cell saga.

This isn't really an "unpopular opinion".

[Saiga]

Also, there's a filler scene of Yamcha, in the original Dragon Ball, of him drooling over some girls while he's training at a gym. Its filler but Toriyama some times gave some ideas for filler, even though I have no idea if this particular scene had anything to do with Toriyama or not.

Do you remember what episode this is? I haven't seen the original anime in full, and have never heard that brought up before.

[Gaffer Tape]

It's the end of episode 123 (of Z, actually, not the original series, unless he's talking about another gym scene I haven't seen), where it shows vignettes of everyone training in preparation for the Artificial Humans. Yamucha is lying on a gym machine but is distracted by the girls doing aerobics nearby. An employee (?) complains that he's not using the machine, so Yamucha gives it a pull, and the machine shatters into pieces, tangling him in the remnants. Yamucha laments that this won't be effective training.

Aside from it seeming to be an afterthought of an implication to cement this new, random cheating lifestyle (not that he's shown to be doing anything improper), I've always really liked this scene. It's funny and a nice, silly moment for Yamucha. And Furuya's acting in this scene cracks me up.

[thatdbzguy]

I like Vegeta and the Cell saga.

This isn't really an "unpopular opinion".

On here it is.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Spoiler:

[quote="Gaffer Tape"Um, when? Because I just re-watched that episode a few days ago, and the only thing I remember is Husky coming on to him, and Yamucha doing his usual freak-out, which Blooma, as usual, misinterpreted. Hell, by the Garlic Jr. arc, it was still the same thing. Maron came onto him, and Yamucha chuckled nervously while sliding away, and Blooma got mad at him for... um... some reason.[/quote]

Spoiler:

Right in the ribbon army arc it is stated by Bulma's mom that Bulma is mad at Yamcha because of how popular he is with other girls. How Yamcha exactly responds to that popularity, if he enjoys it, if he seeks it, if he is indifferent to it, if he doesn't like it, all that is left ambiguous and we are left to wonder if Bulma is mad just because Yamcha is popular or because he is popular and reacts to that popularity.

Later, at the start of the Z portion of the manga, Bulma is mad at Yamcha, but she doesn't state why. Nonetheless, it seems clear that their relationship is troubled. Roshi isn't even surprised by her response.

However, we later find out, stated by Trunks, that Yamcha, over the years, has indeed somewhat responded to that popularity.

Also, there's a filler scene of Yamcha, in the original Dragon Ball, of him drooling over some girls while he's training at a gym. Its filler but Toriyama some times gave some ideas for filler, even though I have no idea if this particular scene had anything to do with Toriyama or not.

So, yeah, Bulma is bad i the faithful department, but is stuff there to make us wonder about Yamcha too.

Gaffer Tape and rereboy's comments (which can be a pretty clunky quoting but I still wanted to include them, so I spoiler-texted them to conserve space if needed but also allow them to still be viewed again from here) are exactly why I'm not buying the Yamcha is a cheater thing, even if it's from Toriyama himself. That and, again, he has also later stated that Yamcha's nervousness around women is still a problem, so I find that hard to reconcile with him being a womanizer.

Yes, there's definitely enough evidence to show that Yamcha receives attention from the ladies. That's a given. And yes, there's even ample evidence to suggest that he may have enjoyed that attention. That's...not in of itself a bad thing. One can enjoy attention from women without being a cheater. If a woman says something about you being attractive, than it is possible to take it in stride as a compliment and enjoy it for what it's worth without suddenly turning into a cheating horndog, which unfortunately seems to be how everyone automatically jumps onto Yamcha for.

And again, we're taking the word of a woman (Bulma) who ends up with the guy who, when she first met him, was killing an alien with a fist through the gut followed by an energy blast. An alien that, five seconds prior, she had been calling handsome, I might remind you. A woman who when we're first introduced to her, seems to want the perfect boyfriend almost more for bragging rights than anything else like, I dunno, love. I don't dislike Bulma, but I seriously question why her word on the matter is treated almost as gospel, and yet Yamcha is just tossed aside as an unfaithful cheater and a loser.

[RandomGuy96]

Because the god/author of the DBU literally just outright said that Bulma was right. That's all there is to it, really. End of discussion.

[Gaffer Tape]

Please don't tell me when the end of discussion is. That annoys me.

But, okay, let's roll with that logic for a second. After all, Toriyama has been coming out with a lot of new tidbits and background information over the past several years. So let's say Toriyama announces one day that, throughout the entire course of the series, Goku was actually a brilliant astrophysicist who made discoveries that shocked the scientific community and revolutionized the entire world.

So... okay. I guess there's nothing that EXPLICITLY keeps that from being possible. But considering there's absolutely nothing in his actions to support this and really seems to contradict most of what we know about his character, you're telling me you wouldn't find that a bit of a head-scratcher and just roll with it?

[Gyt Kaliba]

He also says that Yamcha's problem around women still hasn't gone away fully by the end of the series though, as evident in this interview. That doesn't exactly gel with him being a 'player', so there's still room for debate.

And again, just because the author himself states something doesn't automatically mean it has to be accepted fully by a fanbase. If that were the case, George Lucas wouldn't be so beviled by his own fandom to the degree he seems to be.

[RandomGuy96]

He also says that Yamcha's problem around women still hasn't gone away fully by the end of the series though, as evident in this interview. That doesn't exactly gel with him being a 'player', so there's still room for debate.

And again, just because the author himself states something doesn't automatically mean it has to be accepted fully by a fanbase. If that were the case, George Lucas wouldn't be so beviled by his own fandom to the degree he seems to be.

Uh, no. Just because he's nervous around them doesn't mean he can't cheat. That is completely illogical and presumptuous.

Lucas is not Toriyama. Toriyama pretty much wrote Dragon Ball alone. Lucas had a whole staff of writers, another director, competent ad-libbing actors, and other people who actually knew what they were doing to make the first three movies. He is not the sole creator at all like Toriyama is. He didn't even direct Empire and Jedi.

[Gaffer Tape]

Uh, no. Just because he's nervous around them doesn't mean he can't cheat. That is completely illogical and presumptuous.

And again, just because he's shown to be a bit ignorant of culture and social skills doesn't mean Goku can't actually be a brilliant astrophysicist. But it sure as hell would seem to come out of nowhere, now wouldn't it?

[Gyt Kaliba]

Maybe it doesn't completely throw out the possibility of him cheating, but it sure raises some red flags for me. And as I've said many times, look at all the evidence showing that Bulma is quick to jump to conclusions about his 'cheating'? How can that not make you wonder about how true said accusations that led to their breakup are?

And I'm not comparing Toriyama to Lucas in the vein of their work process. I'm only comparing them on the level of fan acceptance of author gospel. Just because an author says something doesn't automatically mean it has to be accepted by everyone, is all I'm trying to say. The original author is the de facto source of things, yes, but they don't have to be the final say, especially not when their own words are sometimes unclear and don't seem to make perfect sense with what we've been presented in-series.

[RandomGuy96]

Maybe it doesn't completely throw out the possibility of him cheating, but it sure raises some red flags for me. And as I've said many times, look at all the evidence showing that Bulma is quick to jump to conclusions about his 'cheating'? How can that not make you wonder about how true said accusations that led to their breakup are?

And I'm not comparing Toriyama to Lucas in the vein of their work process. I'm only comparing them on the level of fan acceptance of author gospel. Just because an author says something doesn't automatically mean it has to be accepted by everyone, is all I'm trying to say. The original author is the de facto source of things, yes, but they don't have to be the final say, especially not when their own words are sometimes unclear and don't seem to make perfect sense with what we've been presented in-series.

I would wonder if Word of God didn't explicitly say he did.

Toriyama occasionally gets hair details wrong. Big whoop. That doesn't automatically make him unreliable on in universe knowledge, especially for something like this, where this is already stated in story, never contradicted, and not even the least bit implausible. Seriously, where is it suggested that Yamcha is incapable of simply taking an offer?

[Gyt Kaliba]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Despite some good examples from Gaffer Tape and myself both, it seems you're just not seeing the same discrepancies that we are, so we're just pointlessly going around in circles at this point.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'd still be interested in hearing an answer to the scenario I put out there...

[rereboy]

Also, there's a filler scene of Yamcha, in the original Dragon Ball, of him drooling over some girls while he's training at a gym. Its filler but Toriyama some times gave some ideas for filler, even though I have no idea if this particular scene had anything to do with Toriyama or not.

Do you remember what episode this is? I haven't seen the original anime in full, and have never heard that brought up before.

Sorry, but I don't recall the exact number of the episode. But the scene has Yamcha lifting weights in a gym while noticing women outside if I remember correctly.

It's the end of episode 123 (of Z, actually, not the original series, unless he's talking about another gym scene I haven't seen), where it shows vignettes of everyone training in preparation for the Artificial Humans. Yamucha is lying on a gym machine but is distracted by the girls doing aerobics nearby. An employee (?) complains that he's not using the machine, so Yamucha gives it a pull, and the machine shatters into pieces, tangling him in the remnants. Yamucha laments that this won't be effective training.

Ah, I thought it was from the original. Thanks for the correction.

[RandomGuy96]

I'd still be interested in hearing an answer to the scenario I put out there...

The scenarios are not remotely similar. Goku being a brilliant scientist like his father would contradict what is explicitly shown or stated in the manga (Goku has no formal education and is repeatedly called dim witted) and has no grounding in anything. It also requires a character to sprout new abilities. Yamcha being a cheater is already stated and never contradicted in the story. Word of god just confirms it. It isn't even necessarily inconsistent with his previous portrayals. Cheaters rarely look like they're going to cheat before they do so. That's the whole point.

It's more like if Toriyama confirmed Freeza was the strongest in the universe prior to Goku. Even though this is stated and never contradicted, it is sometimes doubted by more skeptical fans because of his attitude towards his father, and his own arrogant personality. Like how fans will try to white wash Yamcha by claiming that Bulma is unreliable because of her personality and say Yamcha's attitude towards women makes him cheating impossible.

You do not know the story and characters better than the guy who actually created them pretty much alone.

[rereboy]

And again, just because he's shown to be a bit ignorant of culture and social skills doesn't mean Goku can't actually be a brilliant astrophysicist. But it sure as hell would seem to come out of nowhere, now wouldn't it?

No, because that's mutually exclusive. Someone without culture, and therefore without education, can't be an astrophysicist, no matter how smart he naturally is. He might become one, after acquiring said culture and education, but not before.

But having a girlfriend and being nervous around girls (but still liking girls) doesn't mean that the guy is incapable of liking to flirt around, liking to receive attention from other girls or even cheat.

In fact, I'd argue that a guy who is nervous around girls (basically because he likes them) is much more likely to cheat given the opportunity than a self confident guy. Yamcha's problem seems to basically be that he has trouble being self-confident around girls he finds attractive (hence why he had no trouble with kid Chichi). Generally that kind of guy is a easy target for a girl that wants to seduce him. And he is popular around girls. This is mainly the reason why I never had trouble believing that Yamcha could cheat. In real life, a guy that has self-confidence issues regarding girls would find very hard to resist a very attractive girl throwing herself at him, even if he had a girlfriend, while a self-confident guy would have a much easier time resisting the temptation if in fact he didn't want to cheat on his girlfriend.

[Nikkolas]

Goku canonically has brain damage and that brain damage is the only reason he's a good person.

That's some horrible implications about the Saiyan race and his character too. Also could account for his idiocy in some cases.

[Gaffer Tape]

The scenarios are not remotely similar. Goku being a brilliant scientist like his father would contradict what is explicitly shown or stated in the manga

His father's a brilliant scientist?

(Goku has no formal education and is repeatedly called dim witted) and has no grounding in anything. It also requires a character to sprout new abilities. Yamcha being a cheater is already stated and never contradicted in the story. Word of god just confirms it. It isn't even necessarily inconsistent with his previous portrayals. Cheaters rarely look like they're going to cheat before they do so. That's the whole point.

For all we know he could be a Rainmaker-esque savant. Or he could have taken correspondence courses over the duration of the series. We just don't know. I wouldn't buy it because it's at odds with what we do know, but there's nothing in the story to contradict it either. Yamucha is frequently shown not just to be scared of women but also desiring settling down with a wife and family. Sure, none of those things necessarily keep him from being capable of cheating, and there's nothing in the story to contradict it either, but it's such a bizarrely out of left-field thing. And not in the sense of what you're talking about either. It's not treated as a shock or a twist. It's not any kind of dramatic irony that Blooma constantly hangs off of other guys and seemingly , but it's the constantly dogged Yamucha who turns out to be the bad guy in the relationship after all! No, we don't get any of that. It's just a completely random factoid that that's not organic to the character or to the plot. It only exists to push Blooma and Vegeta together while ensuring that Blooma doesn't look unsympathetic.

Like how fans will try to white wash Yamcha by claiming that Bulma is unreliable because of her personality and say Yamcha's attitude towards women makes him cheating impossible.

I don't think it's impossible. It's certainly possible. But there's nothing in the story to back it up. It's very poor storytelling. It's character assassination. And it's certainly not the only time in this story arc that it happens. Nearly every character in this arc is given ample opportunity to act out of character and do stupid things. And I'll complain about those too. But it'd be just as plausible to say out of nowhere that Kuririn cheated on #18. Hell, Kuririn is given much more lascivious tendencies than Yamucha, and I still wouldn't believe that either without any context.

You do not know the story and characters better than the guy who actually created them pretty much alone.

Hey, at least I know who Tao Pai Pai is. That's more than the author can say.

In all seriousness, though, I'm by no means calling for 'Death of the Author.' But the author is NOT god, either. Just because he is the author doesn't make him infallible. It doesn't make him immune to poor choices, poor storytelling, or just having an off day. There's no reason to automatically assume that every decision he makes is in line with the multitude of characters he's created, especially when he's just making it up as he goes along. And authors can just up and randomly change their minds. J.K. Rowling, who plots much more diligently and, I'd say, cares much more about her characters, just made headlines by saying she wasn't sure if putting Ron and Hermione together was correct.

When a decision looks like it was made just because it was the easiest way to push his current agenda (Trunks) along, then I feel it's a legitimate criticism to make.