The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[rereboy]

Trunks wouldn't be so surprised at Goku's strength if they were equals or if Goku was weaker, he'd think his mother over-hyped Goku's power.

It's true that Goku said that Trunks wasn't serious, but you could be interpreting that as Goku saying Trunks wasn't serious in trying to kill him, too.

Trunks considered himself to be superior to his master, Future Gohan, and he even said he could hold himself against 1 future android, just not the two of them. And yet, this guy Goku, a dude from even before he was born, is pretty much his equal, perhaps even slightly better. Of course that's impressive and fits what he had been told. Heck, if Goku was much stronger than that, he wouldn't even need a warning to deal with the level of power Trunks thought the androids were at, just the medicine.

[Captain Space]

Trunks wouldn't be so surprised at Goku's strength if they were equals or if Goku was weaker, he'd think his mother over-hyped Goku's power.

It's true that Goku said that Trunks wasn't serious, but you could be interpreting that as Goku saying Trunks wasn't serious in trying to kill him, too.

Trunks considered himself to be superior to his master, Future Gohan, and he even said he could hold himself against 1 future android, just not the two of them. And yet, this guy Goku, a dude from even before he was born, is pretty much his equal, perhaps even slightly better. Of course that's impressive and fits what he had been told. Heck, if Goku was much stronger than that, he wouldn't even need a warning to deal with the level pf power Trunks thought the androids were at, just the medicine.

Minor point, but I was pretty sure that first-appearance Trunks travelled to defeat Freeza and Cold immediately after recovering from being beaten by 17 and 18, at which point he was around equal to Gohan when he died.

[rereboy]

Trunks wouldn't be so surprised at Goku's strength if they were equals or if Goku was weaker, he'd think his mother over-hyped Goku's power.

It's true that Goku said that Trunks wasn't serious, but you could be interpreting that as Goku saying Trunks wasn't serious in trying to kill him, too.

Trunks considered himself to be superior to his master, Future Gohan, and he even said he could hold himself against 1 future android, just not the two of them. And yet, this guy Goku, a dude from even before he was born, is pretty much his equal, perhaps even slightly better. Of course that's impressive and fits what he had been told. Heck, if Goku was much stronger than that, he wouldn't even need a warning to deal with the level pf power Trunks thought the androids were at, just the medicine.

Minor point, but I was pretty sure that first-appearance Trunks travelled to defeat Freeza and Cold immediately after recovering from being beaten by 17 and 18, at which point he was around equal to Gohan when he died.

He went to fight the androids because he considered himself superior to the level Gohan was at when he was killed.

[Captain Space]

Trunks: "...I think I'm strong enough to beat the androids now."

Bulma: "Do you really think you're stronger than [Gohan] was then?"

Trunks: "I can beat them now, Mom! I know I can!"

I guess you could interpret it that way. Kinda sounds like he could be dodging the issue though. Especially considering he's still pent-up/frustrated about not getting to fight them when Gohan did.

[Doctor.]

Considering Gohan at one point got stomped by 17 at 50%, then I don't consider being "superior to SS Gohan" a great achievement. Trunks could be stronger than that and hold up well against the future androids while being weaker than Goku, who himself would be also weaker than the future androids at least when he came back to Earth.

[rereboy]

Trunks: "...I think I'm strong enough to beat the androids now."

Bulma: "Do you really think you're stronger than [Gohan] was then?"

Trunks: "I can beat them now, Mom! I know I can!"

I guess you could interpret it that way. Kinda sounds like he could be dodging the issue though. Especially considering he's still pent-up/frustrated about not getting to fight them when Gohan did.

I said that he considered himself to be stronger. He might be wrong but we have no idea to know that, and it seems logical to think that he is not wrong about being better than Gohan, but not by nearly enough to make much difference to the androids and he can't actually sense their power to know it, he's just guessing.

Considering Gohan at one point got stomped by 17 at 50%, then I don't consider being "superior to SS Gohan" a great achievement. Trunks could be stronger than that and hold up well against the future androids while being weak than Goku, who himself would be also weaker than the future androids at least when he came back to Earth.

Sure, but that doesn't make Goku any less impressive for the reasons I stated.

[Captain Space]

I mean, I guess I'm not disagreeing with your main point (Yardrat Goku being actually impressive to Trunks) in any case.

[supercat]

-The boys either one by themselves can beat Piccolo.

- SSJ Goten (Pre and Post-RoSaT), SSJ Trunks (Pre and Post-RoSaT) x Piccolo (Boo Arc)

pre-RoSaT Goten alone wins.

You guys really think that the boys are really above Piccolo? Piccolo was Semi Perfect Cell tier and we could say that he trained that 7 years time gap, how could he be defeated by them?

-Android 16 x SSJ Goten (Pre and Post-RoSaT), SSJ Trunks (Pre and Post-RoSaT)

Android 16 decides he should help train the young heroes through a sparring session. While the kids were able to hold their own for a bit, the android proves to them that they still have a long way to go. Wanting to redeem themselves, the duo heads into the RoSaT, and begins subjecting themselves to an intense training regimen. Upon their completion, 16 scans their power and tells them with a smile that he has nothing left to teach them.

-SSJ Gohan (Boo Arc) x Piccolo (Boo Arc)

Desiring to test his old student's power, Piccolo challenges him to a match. Although a bit reluctant to fight, Gohan agrees in hopes of impressing the man who had once taught him the foundation of fighting itself. After trading a few blows, the student claims victory and makes his teacher proud.

You are very creative, supercat

Thanks!

In any case, I personally don't feel the kids were quite powerful enough to defeat Piccolo even after completing their training in the RoSaT.

It's true that they were no pushovers, but the fact that Trunks was struggling in the gravity room tells me that prior to entering the RoSaT, both he and Goten likely fell somewhere in between Frieza and SSJ Vegeta (Android arc) at the best. Toss in their brief but effective training session, and I'd say the kids brought themselves the luxury of sporting power levels comparable to Grade 2 SSJ Vegeta (Cell games), if not marginally stronger. However, I still feel that's not enough to handle Piccolo.

Even during the Cell Games, I've always assumed that Piccolo was already closing in on Cell Jr. tier. Add seven more years of training, and I could easily envision the Namekian sitting in a realm of power that puts him above Perfect Cell (suppressed) by the time Buu arrives. The problem with Piccolo was that there just weren't any opportunities for him to showcase his strength in the Buu arc. He was taken out of commission before he got the chance to prove himself on Babidi's ship, and he was leagues below even the weakest form of Buu. Without fusion, I imagine Goten and Trunks would have been in the same boat.

[Captain Space]

It's true that they were no pushovers, but the fact that Trunks was struggling in the gravity room tells me that prior to entering the RoSaT, both he and Goten likely fell somewhere in between Freeza and SSJ Vegeta (Android arc) at the best.

I'd put that more down to inexperience with the gravity room...if Trunks was that weak, there's no way he'd come close to landing a hit on Vegeta, or be able to pressure Vegeta at all (it'd be more like Vegeta vs. final form Freeza), right?

[Hugo Boss]

Trunks: "...I think I'm strong enough to beat the androids now."

Bulma: "Do you really think you're stronger than [Gohan] was then?"

Trunks: "I can beat them now, Mom! I know I can!"

I guess you could interpret it that way. Kinda sounds like he could be dodging the issue though. Especially considering he's still pent-up/frustrated about not getting to fight them when Gohan did.

I think Bulma was right. Trunks seems like a reckless child trying to prove himself capable of surpassing his mother's expectations. This also fits in line with Trunks being pratically on par with Gohan, but more lucky.

[supercat]

It's true that they were no pushovers, but the fact that Trunks was struggling in the gravity room tells me that prior to entering the RoSaT, both he and Goten likely fell somewhere in between Freeza and SSJ Vegeta (Android arc) at the best.

I'd put that more down to inexperience with the gravity room...if Trunks was that weak, there's no way he'd come close to landing a hit on Vegeta, or be able to pressure Vegeta at all (it'd be more like Vegeta vs. final form Freeza), right?

How is being in between Final Form Frieza 100% (On Namek) and SSJ Vegeta (Android arc) considered weak?

I'm really not sure how inexperience would have anything to do with how well one moves around in different levels of gravity. If Trunks' struggle in the gravity room was truly attributed to a lack of experience as you say, then turning SSJ shouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference.

Also, I highly doubt Vegeta was going full force on the kid. Knowing how he could be at times, he probably assumed that sparring with a child who just turned SSJ isn't going to necessitate the usage of his full power. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was simply testing his son with a mere fraction of his abilities.

[Captain Space]

How is being in between Final Form Freeza 100% (On Namek) and SSJ Vegeta (Android arc) considered weak?

I'm really not sure how inexperience would have anything to do with how well one moves around in different levels of gravity. If Trunks' struggle in the gravity room was truly attributed to a lack of experience as you say, then turning SSJ shouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference.

Also, I highly doubt Vegeta was going full force on the kid. Knowing how he could be at times, he probably assumed that sparring with a child who just turned SSJ isn't going to necessitate the usage of his full power. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was simply testing his son with a mere fraction of his abilities.

"Weak" is always, always relative in Dragon Ball. Raditz was stronger than the world's greatest fighters by a factor of three or four. A year later, he's almost a non-factor. Goku's initial Super Saiyan form was incredibly, legendarily powerful. But it wouldn't do crap against Cell (who in turn would be a finger-flick for Godku). That's all I meant.

Well, I viewed it as a combination. His lack of experience meant he struggled with the unfamiliar environment, and needs to go SSJ to zip around; Vegeta, with more experienced, does not.

I mean, I don't see why he wouldn't if all he was planning to do was dodge; if he was holding back, his whole thing about Trunks being fast/strong enough to almost land a serious hit on him would be pretty meaningless. When he was being pressured, if he was holding back, he probably wouldn't have hit Trunks, he'd have just sped up.

[supercat]

How is being in between Final Form Freeza 100% (On Namek) and SSJ Vegeta (Android arc) considered weak?

I'm really not sure how inexperience would have anything to do with how well one moves around in different levels of gravity. If Trunks' struggle in the gravity room was truly attributed to a lack of experience as you say, then turning SSJ shouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference.

Also, I highly doubt Vegeta was going full force on the kid. Knowing how he could be at times, he probably assumed that sparring with a child who just turned SSJ isn't going to necessitate the usage of his full power. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was simply testing his son with a mere fraction of his abilities.

"Weak" is always, always relative in Dragon Ball. Raditz was stronger than the world's greatest fighters by a factor of three or four. A year later, he's almost a non-factor. Goku's initial Super Saiyan form was incredibly, legendarily powerful. But it wouldn't do crap against Cell (who in turn would be a finger-flick for Godku). That's all I meant.

Well, I viewed it as a combination. His lack of experience meant he struggled with the unfamiliar environment, and needs to go SSJ to zip around; Vegeta, with more experienced, does not.

I mean, I don't see why he wouldn't if all he was planning to do was dodge; if he was holding back, his whole thing about Trunks being fast/strong enough to almost land a serious hit on him would be pretty meaningless. When he was being pressured, if he was holding back, he probably wouldn't have hit Trunks, he'd have just sped up.

We're comparing things on a completely different scale here. With the way Beerus reacted over Frieza's death, surpassing the emperor of evil still seems like a major milestone.

I honestly don't see the logic behind experience being a variable in how comfortably one could move around in the gravity room, if all it took was a power boost (turning SSJ) to zoom around with ease.

It wouldn't be meaningless at all. A child who just turned SSJ for the first time on screen being able to give even a suppressed version of a well trained Super Saiyan like Vegeta a slight challenge is a major feat.

[Alex9196]

baby broly vs nappa (saiyan saga)
(I know broly's power level is way higher being at 10.000 but since he is a baby he has no clue how to fight)

bardock vs kid vegeta ( both from bardock father of goku special)

whis vs beerus, ssjg goku and all others from the gang which where in bog like gohan, vegeta, piccolo, buu,etc.

[Captain Space]

We're comparing things on a completely different scale here. With the way Beerus reacted over Freeza's death, surpassing the emperor of evil still seems like a major milestone.

I honestly don't see the logic behind experience being a variable in how comfortably one could move around in the gravity room, if all it took was a power boost (turning SSJ) to zoom around with ease.

It wouldn't be meaningless at all. A child who just turned SSJ for the first time on screen being able to give even a suppressed version of a well trained Super Saiyan like Vegeta a slight challenge is a major feat.

Absolutely. I wasn't ever saying Freeza was weak in that sense.

Like I said, a combination. Power helps, as does familiarity (experienced pilots are better at handling G-forces in real life, for instance). So someone with more experience requires less power to do it, and someone with less experience requires more power.

I dunno, it feels like that robs the scene of its purpose. Like, the entire point of that training session to me seems to be to show that Trunks isn't that far behind Vegeta. There's no direct indication that Vegeta was deliberately slowing himself down or anything (and like I said, if so, speeding up would've been simpler than smacking Trunks to the ground), and generally DB is pretty clear on that kind of thing.

baby broly vs nappa (saiyan saga)
(I know broly's power level is way higher being at 10.000 but since he is a baby he has no clue how to fight)

bardock vs kid vegeta ( both from bardock father of goku special)

whis vs beerus, ssjg goku and all others from the gang which where in bog like gohan, vegeta, piccolo, buu,etc.

Probably Nappa, given the actually-a-fighter thing, albeit after some wacky hijinks with Broly accidentally smacking him around a bit.

Bardock--he was stronger than King Vegeta, and Vegeta here only might've been (we know he surpassed his father at some point in his childhood, but whether he'd hit that point yet in the special is unclear).

So basically Whis vs. Beerus and SSJG Goku. He can one-shot Beerus, so gonna say Whis. He can probably finish taking out Beerus and Goku before the rest of the gang finish taking two steps towards him.

[Alex9196]

It is true that he knocked Beerus out with one hit, but Beerus was crazy at the moment and not on guard. in an actuall fight assuming Beerus, Goku and the others were on-guard i dont think he could knock him out so easily.

for example, ssj2 Goku vs majin Vegeta, they were equal, but Vegeta knocked Goku out with one hit, because he wasn't on guard.

[Captain Space]

That is true...

I'd still give it to Whis 8-9/10, though, given that base Goku and Vegeta in RF were probably vaguely around SSJG level, and how the training session there went.

[Alex9196]

I didnt see FnF until now, so i cant say anything about that since i have no clue.

[Captain Space]

I didnt see FnF until now, so i cant say anything about that since i have no clue.

Basically Goku and Vegeta are still completely outclassed by him.

[supercat]

We're comparing things on a completely different scale here. With the way Beerus reacted over Freeza's death, surpassing the emperor of evil still seems like a major milestone.

I honestly don't see the logic behind experience being a variable in how comfortably one could move around in the gravity room, if all it took was a power boost (turning SSJ) to zoom around with ease.

It wouldn't be meaningless at all. A child who just turned SSJ for the first time on screen being able to give even a suppressed version of a well trained Super Saiyan like Vegeta a slight challenge is a major feat.

Absolutely. I wasn't ever saying Freeza was weak in that sense.

Like I said, a combination. Power helps, as does familiarity (experienced pilots are better at handling G-forces in real life, for instance). So someone with more experience requires less power to do it, and someone with less experience requires more power.

I dunno, it feels like that robs the scene of its purpose. Like, the entire point of that training session to me seems to be to show that Trunks isn't that far behind Vegeta. There's no direct indication that Vegeta was deliberately slowing himself down or anything (and like I said, if so, speeding up would've been simpler than smacking Trunks to the ground), and generally DB is pretty clear on that kind of thing.

I'm not sure how turning SSJ would suddenly improve Trunks' familiarity with the gravity room. All his transformation did was give him the strength necessitated to move around freely. You either have the strength to handle the increased levels of gravity or you don't. Experience likely has very little to do with it.

I don't recall Vegeta tapping into the full extent of his power before sparring with Trunks. It seemed like the whole point of their brief sparring match was so the prince could simply test his son's abilities, versus actually trying to score a win on him.

baby broly vs nappa (saiyan saga)
(I know broly's power level is way higher being at 10.000 but since he is a baby he has no clue how to fight)

bardock vs kid vegeta ( both from bardock father of goku special)

whis vs beerus, ssjg goku and all others from the gang which where in bog like gohan, vegeta, piccolo, buu,etc.

baby broly vs nappa (saiyan saga)

-Nappa wins due to experience. With that said, with Broly's 10,000 power level protecting his body, it's going to take Nappa quite a bit of effort.

bardock vs kid vegeta ( both from bardock father of goku special)

-With doubts about the king formulating in his head, Bardock decides to take a stand and fight for leadership. Deeming the treacherous scum as a complete waste of time, King Vegeta orders his son to make quick work of him. Disappointed that his son is struggling against such a low class warrior, the king sadly prepares a ship to yet again banish another one of his children.

whis vs beerus, ssjg goku and all others from the gang which where in bog like gohan, vegeta, piccolo, buu,etc.

-Thrilled at the opportunity to train with Whis, the entire group rushes at him with the best of their abilities. Needless to say, Goku fails to land a hit, Vegeta's Final Flash inflicts zero damage, Gohan's Kamehameha is deflected away like a beach ball, Piccolo's Makankosappo is caught with one hand, Buu's chocolate beam misses by a mile, and the Shin Kikoho does nothing but sap the life out of its user. Growing bored of their futile efforts, Beerus himself decides to participate. Knowing how much damage the repercussions of their fight can cause, Whis immediately pulls out all the stops and promptly knocks his student out with a debilitating punch to his abdomen.