What are your thoughts on how the SSJ levels work?

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:23 am

Well, Vegeta's true potential doesn't become apparent--I feel--until after he's abandoned his pride and hate for Son for good. I think it's held him back and blinded him. After all, somehow Son was able to see a third transformation where Vegeta couldn't.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:48 am

JulieYBM wrote:Well, Vegeta's true potential doesn't become apparent--I feel--until after he's abandoned his pride and hate for Son for good. I think it's held him back and blinded him. After all, somehow Son was able to see a third transformation where Vegeta couldn't.

It is called dying and going to Dai-Kaio’s Planet where Ki works differently than on earth. Kakarrot could break through that wall because the physics are different in Other World. Gotenks broke through because he was in another dimension, if Vegeta temporarily died or could go into the Room of Space and Time for one more session I would gather that he would reach Super Saiyan 3 rather quickly.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Well, Vegeta's true potential doesn't become apparent--I feel--until after he's abandoned his pride and hate for Son for good. I think it's held him back and blinded him. After all, somehow Son was able to see a third transformation where Vegeta couldn't.
It is called dying and going to Dai-Kaio’s Planet where Ki works differently than on earth. Kakarrot could break through that wall because the physics are different in Other World. Gotenks broke through because he was in another dimension, if Vegeta temporarily died or could go into the Room of Space and Time for one more session I would gather that he would reach Super Saiyan 3 rather quickly.

Emotional state has a huge effect on ki. In qigong, ki can become erratic or blocked because of emotional 'baggage'. And as we know, SSJ3 is supposedly calmer than the other forms. It's quite possible that Vegeta's pride and obsessiveness was holding him back. It's like poison for the soul.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:16 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Dayspring wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:I agree with you until you made this statement: If that was the case Vegeta should have went Super Saiyan 3 along time ago.
Not necessarily. He may not have thought to gather all his energy in one shot. Unless you feel it will result in a transformation, it would be pretty counterproductive to do such a thing. Plus I think the Majin boost shows us that he hadn't exceeded his SSJ2 potential.

Although I see your point for GT.
Yeah especially the scene where Vegeta faces off against Super #17 and goes full power before Kakarrot interferes.

Although, an in-story explanation for this could be that, once Vegeta acknowledges Goku as number one against Kid Boo, that he no longer has a reason to become stronger. While I don't see him abandoning his training altogether like Gohan did, it's possible he only trained to maintain his current level, which wasn't enough to reach SSJ3.

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:41 am

I think that Vegeta was still training to beat Goku, but not the way he was before. It was no longer his sole desire, it was more of a goal for him... a friendly rivalry.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:16 am

Kingdom Heartless wrote:I think that Vegeta was still training to beat Goku, but not the way he was before. It was no longer his sole desire, it was more of a goal for him... a friendly rivalry.

I agree and we cannot forget his grand speech during the Super #17 Saga, his purpose for training was to protect the earth and its citizens. Therefore, I do not see anything hindering his attaining Super Saiyan 3 but the lack of an alternate dimension where Ki functions differently.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:27 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Kingdom Heartless wrote:I think that Vegeta was still training to beat Goku, but not the way he was before. It was no longer his sole desire, it was more of a goal for him... a friendly rivalry.
I agree and we cannot forget his grand speech during the Super #17 Saga, his purpose for training was to protect the earth and its citizens. Therefore, I do not see anything hindering his attaining Super Saiyan 3 but the lack of an alternate dimension where Ki functions differently.

Maybe it's just one of those, 'Toei hates Vegeta' moments? Or...Toei hates everyone but Goku, even. No Gotenks. No Mystic Gohan. No SSJ3 for Vegeta. No screen time for Uub. I kinda like that Pan didn't reach SSJ because it had become cliche and outclassed by then anyway, but it would have been nice if she'd had something.

Alternatively, maybe Vegeta did reach SSJ3, and just didn't use it because of the flaws.

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:35 am

It might not be that Toei dislikes Vegeta... maybe they just felt that Goku was the most popular character, and people wouldn't like seeing him take the back seat. I don't know who was the most popular character in Japan at the time (it's not as easy as Naruto, who have Popularity Contests all the time), but I get the feeling Goku was pretty dang popular. It's not just Toei, either. There's a different Goku figurine coming out every other month, while I haven't been able to find any of Tenshinhan or Yamucha, and it's not easy finding Gohan ones either. Vegeta seems to get the 2nd most figurines.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:37 am

People place far too much emphasis on hating Vegeta. After all, he did become one of the only Super Saiyan 4s in the whole series. There are any number of reasons Vegeta didn't use SSj3 and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. If he really needed to use it in Toriyama written material, he would have--espicially post-Number One Speech, were he stopped being a douche and earned it.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:30 am

JulieYBM wrote:People place far too much emphasis on hating Vegeta. After all, he did become one of the only Super Saiyan 4s in the whole series. There are any number of reasons Vegeta didn't use SSj3 and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. If he really needed to use it in Toriyama written material, he would have--espicially post-Number One Speech, were he stopped being a douche and earned it.

It is no secret that in various interviews etc. that it was stated that the fans and editors had a big influence what took place in the manga. I believe it was once demonstrated on here that the only reason why Vegeta remained around after the Saiyan Saga was that the female fans demanded that he stick around. In addition, there is such a thing as Vegeta hate because we see it on here all the time.

mister yummy · Post by **mister yummy** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:35 pm

Unlike most people, I don't believe the Super Saiya-jin transformation to be a consistent multiplier to one's bvase strength. Assuming that Goku got 50 times stronger when he transformed the first time, this doesn't mean he will get that much stronger every time he transforms, especially as his base strength gets higher.

I'm not quite shure how to do it instead...something like 50x the first time, but just add that increase each additional time. That would explain why Vegita seems to get strnger when he transforms than Goku does...

"Ultra" SSJ happens when you force your power up beyond the limits of a normal Super Saiya-jin. This power comes, I think, from a potential Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation.

"Ultra" SSJ form 2 would be going to the extreme. You force so much power into yourself that your muscles swell up, and you lose mobility. While USSJ can be an advantage due to the strength increse, USSJ2 is a disadvantage because of the speed loss.

SSJ2 happens when someone has mastered the Super Saiya-jin transformation, and made it their normal state("FP"-SSJ. Hate all these fan terms) After doing this, a similiar emotional breakthrough must occour to the one that caused the oprigional transformation, another massive burst of rage. Something snaps, and one breaks through and ascends.

Super Saiya-jin 3 can only be acheived through training. After one has mastered SSJ2, he trains to make the form more and more powerful. Once all the potential power is opened up, one transforms to unleash even more power. This form is an enormous drain on ki and stamina, and even super-natural forces such as time a dead body can be on earth, or how long the fusion lasts. Goku said he can only maintain it in the afterlife, and on earth he can only do it for short bursts. One can learn to utilise the "full power" version of this form, which would be more powerful, and probably involve mastery beyond the strain on ki and stamina.

SSJ4 is a different road all together. Once one has transformed into a Super Saiya-jin and learned to control their power, and transformed into an Oozaru and learned to control the power, then they can combine the two into a Golden Oozaru. A saiya-jin must then be in full control of their mind and emotions, after which they use some sort of partially magical power to transform once again back to normal size, but with all the power they had previously. This is called a Super Saiya-jin 4, but that's arbitrary. If it had been discovered before SSJ@, then that's what it would have been called.

SSJ4 is only about as strong as SSJ3, in my opinion, just without the stamina ki drain disadvantages. So, factor in training and re-kid-ifying, SSJ4 Goku's only about as powerful as SSJ3 Goku was against Kid Buu. Makes GT work better for me...

Not to get totally hypothetical.

Since SSJ4 is a different path from SSJ2, once could conjecture that you could ascend along it's path as well.

The same massive burst of rage that ascends a calm, in control, mastered Super Saiya-jin could turn a calm, in control, normal form "Full Power" SSJ4 into a SSJ5. From there, it would follow, one could train the form to unlock all of it's power and transform into Super Saiya-jin 6. However, there's no logical continueance. Sorry DBAF, I can only help you out so far.

As for how much power the levels give you? Here's an example of my more complicated method of determining a Super Saiya-jin's Battle Power.

Say Goku was 300,000 at "base", and 15,000,000 when he transformed the first time(Fuck you Daizenshuu). This is a 50x increase. However, it's also a 14,700,000 increase.

To pull some numbers out of my ass, let's say Goku'd gotten his "base" fighting power to 2,500,000 by the time Android 19 showed up, and completely ignore the heart virus.

Under the common system, his SSJ battle power would be at 125,000,000, which seems absurdly high to me. Instead, using a simplified version of my new system, his SSJ Battle power would be 17,200,000. To make it a bit more complex, let's say he'd improved his SSJ form as well, making the increase go from 14,700,000 to 18,000,000. This would result in a battle power of 20,200,000. The numbers you get doing it this way make much more sense, at least to me. I'll have to make up a battle powers list soon.

Also, the first transformation doesn't have to be 50x. It just worked out that way for Goku. If you transform with a higher "base" power, your initial multiplier would likely be lower.

Yes, I know the Daizenshuu give much higher numbers for Goku and Freeza. I don't like those numbers, they're WAY too high. I prefer the mistranslation, and think it's closer to the mark anyways.

SSJ2 seems to double the Super Saiyan transformation. let's use Gohan as an example.

Pulling random numbers out of my ass again, let's say Gohan had a battle power of 3,500,000 in the Room of Spirit and Time as he neared the end of his training to become a Super Saiya-jin. Yeah, it's probably too low... Anyways...

Gohan would gain, let's say 30x from his transformation. This would take him to 105,000,000. As he's on par with Perfect Cell using this form, that sounds about right, perhaps a bit low. Of course, Gohan trained his base power up and improved his SSJ form to mastery in the remaining time he had in the time chamber. Let's give him 6,000,000 'base' and 160,000,000 "FP" SSJ when he comes out.

That means his SSJ increase has gone from 101,500,000 to 154,000,000 during the interval from first transformation to mastery of the form. Quite an improvement, really.

Then, as he gets to SSJ2, you'd double that. Not his total power, just the increase.

This results in SSJ2 Gohan with a totally out of my ass powel level of 314,000,000, because of it's initial increase of 308,000,000. One could train in that form to make the increase higher, or train normally to make their "base" power higher. As there's no multiple, either form of training helps in either case.

SSJ3, I have no idea how to do this one yet...I'll get back to you.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:31 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:People place far too much emphasis on hating Vegeta. After all, he did become one of the only Super Saiyan 4s in the whole series. There are any number of reasons Vegeta didn't use SSj3 and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. If he really needed to use it in Toriyama written material, he would have--espicially post-Number One Speech, were he stopped being a douche and earned it.
It is no secret that in various interviews etc. that it was stated that the fans and editors had a big influence what took place in the manga. I believe it was once demonstrated on here that the only reason why Vegeta remained around after the Saiyan Saga was that the female fans demanded that he stick around. In addition, there is such a thing as Vegeta hate because we see it on here all the time.

So is pointing out the characters' flaws now a sign of hating him? Vegeta's made plenty of really stupid mistakes, that doesn't mean we don't think other characters make mistakes, but the fact of the situation is Vegeta 'digs his own grave'.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:22 pm

mister yummy wrote:Unlike most people, I don't believe the Super Saiya-jin transformation to be a consistent multiplier to one's bvase strength. Assuming that Goku got 50 times stronger when he transformed the first time, this doesn't mean he will get that much stronger every time he transforms, especially as his base strength gets higher...

Herms had demonstrated many times from the Daizenshuu and the GT Perfect Files that Super Saiyan 1 is a 50 times multiplier. The S.E.G. even identifies how much of a multiplier the other full transformations are (SSJ 2 x100 and SSJ 3 is x400).

JulieYBM wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:People place far too much emphasis on hating Vegeta. After all, he did become one of the only Super Saiyan 4s in the whole series. There are any number of reasons Vegeta didn't use SSj3 and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. If he really needed to use it in Toriyama written material, he would have--espicially post-Number One Speech, were he stopped being a douche and earned it.
It is no secret that in various interviews etc. that it was stated that the fans and editors had a big influence what took place in the manga. I believe it was once demonstrated on here that the only reason why Vegeta remained around after the Saiyan Saga was that the female fans demanded that he stick around. In addition, there is such a thing as Vegeta hate because we see it on here all the time.
So is pointing out the characters' flaws now a sign of hating him? Vegeta's made plenty of really stupid mistakes, that doesn't mean we don't think other characters make mistakes, but the fact of the situation is Vegeta 'digs his own grave'.

Read some of the comments about him from the past and then you tell me if it is hating or not.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:39 pm

mister yummy wrote:=Lots of stuff=

I used to think something similar to this too, but eventually a character's base form would get so strong that it would theoretically dwarf Super Saiyajin completely. I guess that's possible, but...I dunno.

Saiyan-Professor wrote:Herms had demonstrated many times from the Daizenshuu and the GT Perfect Files that Super Saiyan 1 is a 50 times multiplier. The S.E.G. even identifies how much of a multiplier the other full transformations are (SSJ 2 x100 and SSJ 3 is x400).

Come to think of it, the guide only says that SSJ2 is double SSJ1, and SSJ3 is x4 SSJ2. So theoretically, mister yummy's method could be right.

Look at Oozaru though. It always multiplied your strength by 10, no matter how strong you got. It seems consistent that SSJ would also be similar.

Read some of the comments about him from the past and then you tell me if it is hating or not.

Vegeta is an egotistical asshole. But I don't hate him. In fact, I think those flaws are what makes him an interesting character.

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:46 pm

Honestly, Saiyan-Professor, I see a lot more Goku hate than Vegeta hate here. It's like Kaboom said... it seems when Goku or Gohan do a stupid thing, it's because they are crap characters, but when Vegeta does something stupid, it's bad writing.

People here seem to be a lot more understanding of the flaws of Vegeta's character than Goku's. I can recall seeing very little Vegeta hate being posted here since I joined.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:49 pm

Kingdom Heartless wrote:It's like Kaboom said... it seems when Goku or Gohan do a stupid thing, it's because they are crap characters, but when Vegeta does something stupid, it's bad writing.

I said that?

Certainly when Vegeta does something stupid like let Cell become perfect, I don't give him a free pass for it...

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:51 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Kingdom Heartless wrote:It's like Kaboom said... it seems when Goku or Gohan do a stupid thing, it's because they are crap characters, but when Vegeta does something stupid, it's bad writing.
I said that?

Certainly when Vegeta does something stupid like let Cell become perfect, I don't give him a free pass for it...

Yeah, a while back in the Multiverse thread. I took note of it because I felt it to be true.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:06 pm

Bussani wrote:...
Saiyan-Professor wrote:Herms had demonstrated many times from the Daizenshuu and the GT Perfect Files that Super Saiyan 1 is a 50 times multiplier. The S.E.G. even identifies how much of a multiplier the other full transformations are (SSJ 2 x100 and SSJ 3 is x400).
Come to think of it, the guide only says that SSJ2 is double SSJ1, and SSJ3 is x4 SSJ2. So theoretically, mister yummy's method could be right.

Look at Oozaru though. It always multiplied your strength by 10, no matter how strong you got. It seems consistent that SSJ would also be similar...

How so could you elaborate?

Kingdom Heartless wrote:Honestly, Saiyan-Professor, I see a lot more Goku hate than Vegeta hate here. It's like Kaboom said... it seems when Goku or Gohan do a stupid thing, it's because they are crap characters, but when Vegeta does something stupid, it's bad writing.

People here seem to be a lot more understanding of the flaws of Vegeta's character than Goku's. I can recall seeing very little Vegeta hate being posted here since I joined.

It is just a paradigm shift; many people no longer fear the wrath of the Son Gohan and Kakarrot fan-boys. At one time if someone would say the slightest negative thing about those characters, they would feel the wrath of the "Son clique." Now people are starting to see things for what it is. I acknowledge Vegeta and his faults and move on but you have some would go on and about the Cell incident as if their favorites did not do anything idiotic. All I ask for is equal measure, if you go on for pages about Vegeta being an asshole do the same concerning Kakarrot’s selfishness etc.

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:20 pm

Me? I think I've only mentioned the Cell thing once, and it was in the context of "a lot of people have made dumb mistakes with villains on the show."

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:20 pm

Kingdom Heartless wrote:it seems when Goku or Gohan do a stupid thing, it's because they are crap characters, but when Vegeta does something stupid, it's bad writing.

Goku and Gohan get to be the heros in exchange for a few dumb moments (or a lot of dumb moments in Gohan's case).

Vegeta just gets his face busted in.