Kaio-Ken Question

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:22 pm

... Oooor Toriyama goofs and gave two separate names to the same thing.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:25 pm

I think the author just said it was kaioken x2 so that we wouldn`t get confused and so that we would be able to immediatilly tell apart kaioken x2 from kaioken x3, since Goku was about to use kaioken x3.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:00 pm

Dayspring wrote:But that implies the exact opposite of what Kaioken does.

How so? "Not even doubling his strength through the Kaio-ken was enough", "I can't beat him with twice the Kaio-ken", "Kaio-ken x2".

The Kaio-ken augments Goku's ki in some way or another. But I don't see how that theory goes against what was stated.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:15 pm

Tyro wrote:
Dayspring wrote:But that implies the exact opposite of what Kaioken does.
How so? "Not even doubling his strength through the Kaio-ken was enough", "I can't beat him with twice the Kaio-ken", "Kaio-ken x2".

The Kaio-ken augments Goku's ki in some way or another. But I don't see how that theory goes against what was stated.

Doesn't Goku say earlier that it doubles all his faculties, though?

Besides, if it worked the way you suggest, Goku would be more than strong enough to take out Vegeta with Kaioken x2. I chock up the Kaioken x3 and x4 not obliterating him because of the damage they did to Goku beforehand. At Kaioken x1 and x2, this wouldn't be the case. So if it is Kaioken itself that doubles, we'd get the following:

Goku = 8,000

Regular Kaioken:
Goku = 8,000 + Goku
Goku = 8,000 + 8,000
Goku = 16,000

Kaioken x2:
Goku = 8,000 + [Kaioken x 2]
Goku = 8,000 + 16,000
Goku = 24,000

Goku having a "normal" BP of 24,000 to Vegeta's 18,000 simply doesn't work, since Vegeta was beyond stronger than Kaioken x2.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:53 pm

Dayspring wrote:Besides, if it worked the way you suggest, Goku would be more than strong enough to take out Vegeta with Kaioken x2.

That's assuming that Goku didn't take any damage from:

1) using the normal Kaio-ken against Nappa
2) fighting Vegeta while he was only playing around
3) using the normal Kaio-ken on Vegeta
4) fighting Vegeta at his full power

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:39 pm

The normal kaioken (or kaioken x2) didn`t hurt Goku at all. It is said that goku had already mastered it.

Kaioken x3 however was beyond his full control, so it hurt him.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:52 pm

Yeah, except Goku was never stated to have mastered the basic Kaio-Ken at that point. The way he talks about it to Krillin even implies that he didn't.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:07 pm

North kaio implies that he did, I think. But just the kaioken x2. And even the kaioken x2 could hurt him if he didn`t control the power and his body perfectily.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:25 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Yeah, except Goku was never stated to have mastered the basic Kaio-Ken at that point. The way he talks about it to Krillin even implies that he didn't.

I think he implies more that if he doesn't give the technique enough focus, he'll hurt himself.

Like in chemistry, one miscalculation or chemical can cause an explosion.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:57 pm

Tyro wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Besides, if it worked the way you suggest, Goku would be more than strong enough to take out Vegeta with Kaioken x2.
That's assuming that Goku didn't take any damage from:

1) using the normal Kaio-ken against Nappa
2) fighting Vegeta while he was only playing around
3) using the normal Kaio-ken on Vegeta
4) fighting Vegeta at his full power

Basically what you're saying is that Goku's BP pre-Kaioken x3 = X, where X = between 5,250 and way under 6,000, while Kaioken x3 = Y, where Y = between 5,250 and X. If negligeable damage caused a drop of waaaay over 2,000, I don't see considerable damage as only causing a drop of at most a few hundred.