GT - Canonical or not?

[Kaboom]

GT is horribly written to the point where at times it seems the writers never even read the original manga. It's about as far from 'canon' as it can be.

[Teclo]

Toriyama designed characters, but that was it. Character designs have no bearing on canon; story does. And since:

A) Lots of crap in GT doesn't make sense,
B) Toriyama didn't actually write any of it...

But then I counter that with:
A} Lots of crap in DB/DBZ didn't make sense.
B) Toriyama openly, publicly approved of GT - he didn't write it but he could have said "this makes no sense" but he didn't; he said that he's all for it.

It's just basic human reasoning, dude. The show is full of plotholes AND it wasn't written(nor were the individual episodes or storylines approved) by Toriyama; two great reasons to consider it not canon. It's got nothing to do with it being shit or not, or that people "don't want it to be canon"; Movie 7 is fucking great and it can't be fit into any sort of canon spot of the manga OR anime without treading on serious water. By excluding GT, talking about Dragon Ball in-universe and explaining it to someone else becomes a whole lot simpler.

Actual DB and DBZ are tremendously full of plot holes, inconsistencies and just general what-the-fuckery, but we let it slide by giving excuses like "it's a joke" or "oh well, Toriyama forgot!" DB and DBZ is written by a guy who openly admits that he didn't think about what happened next and who openly admitted to changing the plot due to the whim of his editor. It's really one-sided to attack GT for all its (many) failures in that context. The creator or DB openly accepts it and approves of it. If you're talking "personally accepted canon" I can't argue with you, if you're talking "official", then it doesn't get much more official than the mangaka fully approving of it and contributing to it.

Remember, he changed the Jinzoningen because his editor complained, he re-designed Cell twice because the editor compained. THe whole plot of the Cell Saga was controlled more by his editor than by Toriyama, the latter essentially just supplying character designs until his editor approved. He forced himself through the Buu Saga and then said "I've finally been allowed to stop drawing Dragon Ball" in his farewell letter. Really, I love DB to bits, but not because of its coherent and logical plot.

[Rocketman]

To use an example I've used before, it's really stupid how Goten is exactly the same as Goku even though he hadn't met Goku by the time we first see Goten. Goku was only how he was because he hit his head - Goten genetically inherited Goku's bump on the head?

Well, he didn't seem exactly like Goku to me. Besides, he's seven, and most seven-year-olds are pretty dumb.

Another 2nd-hand example, why did Goku send Trunks to Capsule Corp to get the Dragon Radar when he could have just instantly teleported there himself (Buu saga)?

Goku's teleportation needs him to lock onto someone's ki to teleport. He had to concentrate for a minute to find Bulma's ki, the person he's known the longest. How was he supposed to lock onto her parents' kis in time?

[Teclo]

Goku's teleportation needs him to lock onto someone's ki to teleport. He had to concentrate for a minute to find Bulma's ki, the person he's known the longest. How was he supposed to lock onto her parents' kis in time?

Well because he knew exactly where they were. He just had to "scan for ki" in the CC building. Or, hell, at least have sent Trunks there while Goku hold up Buu THEN teleported to where Trunks is and teleported back to the lookout. It was just Toriyama wanting a little showdown (as well as a chance to showcase SSJ3) that was indulged at the expense of plot and logic. Like a hell of a lot of DBZ, it's more about "Look at this awesome thing" rather than "Please reflect on this masterfully conceived plotline".

Also, I edited my previous post because it was way too long (and still is) so Rocketman is quoting things that have now been snipped out - just saying this to avoid any confusion.

[Bussani]

I think your definition of canon is still a bit off. Something being approved or accepted by the creator doesn't make it canon to their previous work, unless they say so. There's no evidence yet that Toriyama considers anything in GT to have actually happened after his story, and the plot points in GT certainly have no affect on how you should interpret the manga that he wrote.

GT is a possible continuation of the series. It references things from the anime and movies. But if we're talking about the manga, you can't consider information put forth by GT to be canon to it. Or maybe you can if you're making up your own 'personal canon', but then you've gone beyond 'manga canon'.

Dragon Ball as a franchise doesn't have an official canon, but usually when we talk about canon around here, we're talking about what Toriyama himself wrote. And it doesn't matter why he wrote it, whether it was planned or changed, it's still the story as it was originally released.

[Olivier Hague]

Toriyama openly, publicly approved of GT - he didn't write it but he could have said "this makes no sense" but he didn't; he said that he's all for it.

Then again, he also said it was a side-story...

Remember, he changed the Jinzoningen because his editor complained, he re-designed Cell twice because the editor compained. THe whole plot of the Cell Saga was controlled more by his editor than by Toriyama, the latter essentially just supplying character designs until his editor approved. He forced himself through the Buu Saga and then said "I've finally been allowed to stop drawing Dragon Ball" in his farewell letter.

If stories need to be written in a vacuum, without any input from anybody else, to be considered canonical... we might have a problem!