Goku and Android 18's Sword Resistance

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:24 am

Obviously ki isn't the only factor. Some bodies are naturally tougher than others to begin with. But I definitely think ki can make a difference. Even if the character doesn't visibly parry a shot or create a forcefield (SSJ Goku taking a Death Beam to the face, for instance), I think being prepared for it (or just overflowing with power, as the case may be) makes a difference.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:29 am

Oh yes, obviously. Retroactively speaking, I think it was mostly natural Saiyan toughness that let Goku tank things like bullets or an axe to the head in early DragonBall. Comedy-aspects aside, even if they had just as high a battle power, I don't think Yamcha or Kuririn would come out of those same incidents so... intact.

Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:16 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh yes, obviously. Retroactively speaking, I think it was mostly natural Saiyan toughness that let Goku tank things like bullets or an axe to the head in early DragonBall. Comedy-aspects aside, even if they had just as high a battle power, I don't think Yamcha or Kuririn would come out of those same incidents so... intact.

Krillin and Roshi both survived bullets to the head multiple times, right around the beginning of the series. We just have to face it, there's not getting around it. The series started as a gag manga and it was stream of consciousness. There was no planning. Some things just can't be justified.

Unless Lunch's machine guns were full of black paintballs and Goku only dropped Monster Carrot and his goons off on the top of a really high building with a moon backdrop.

Shoryuken · Post by **Shoryuken** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:10 am

Innagadadavida wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh yes, obviously. Retroactively speaking, I think it was mostly natural Saiyan toughness that let Goku tank things like bullets or an axe to the head in early DragonBall. Comedy-aspects aside, even if they had just as high a battle power, I don't think Yamcha or Kuririn would come out of those same incidents so... intact.
Krillin and Roshi both survived bullets to the head multiple times, right around the beginning of the series. We just have to face it, there's not getting around it. The series started as a gag manga and it was stream of consciousness. There was no planning. Some things just can't be justified.

Unless Lunch's machine guns were full of black paintballs and Goku only dropped Monster Carrot and his goons off on the top of a really high building with a moon backdrop.

The entire machine-gun episode is purely gag.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:22 am

Shoryuken wrote:
Innagadadavida wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh yes, obviously. Retroactively speaking, I think it was mostly natural Saiyan toughness that let Goku tank things like bullets or an axe to the head in early DragonBall. Comedy-aspects aside, even if they had just as high a battle power, I don't think Yamcha or Kuririn would come out of those same incidents so... intact.
Krillin and Roshi both survived bullets to the head multiple times, right around the beginning of the series. We just have to face it, there's not getting around it. The series started as a gag manga and it was stream of consciousness. There was no planning. Some things just can't be justified.

Unless Lunch's machine guns were full of black paintballs and Goku only dropped Monster Carrot and his goons off on the top of a really high building with a moon backdrop.
The entire machine-gun episode is purely gag.

That's what he means. There are some parts that can't be justified further than, 'it's just a gag,' and that's fine.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:19 am

I wonder, if the same axe that broke over Goku's head was in the hands of Trunks (who came back in time to kill Goku for some (possibly Daizex's AF prank-related?) reason), would it have turned out the same?

*o_o*.

At risk of off-topic-ness, this leaves me wondering: prior to the makankosappo, aren't most ki attacks either focused on pushing the opponent, or burning the opponent? Though I suppose Piccolo does mouth-blast a hole in Goku... Eh.

*points out the episode where Goku was sleeping in SSJ and Krillin hit him with a rock*.

^_^

But yeah: it's folly to concern one's self with "conventional weapons", when what matters is how it's used and by who(m?). Let's note that most of these gag-hits are to the head.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:18 am

caejones wrote:I wonder, if the same axe that broke over Goku's head was in the hands of Trunks (who came back in time to kill Goku for some (possibly Daizex's AF prank-related?) reason), would it have turned out the same? *o_o*.

I wonder that too. It may just be a poor quality axe. I'm sure Trunks' sword would cut through little Goku like butter, though.

At risk of off-topic-ness, this leaves me wondering: prior to the makankosappo, aren't most ki attacks either focused on pushing the opponent, or burning the opponent? Though I suppose Piccolo does mouth-blast a hole in Goku... Eh.

I think the first piercing style ki blast we saw was Dodonpa, when Tao Pai Pai used it. Pretty much all ki attacks seem to be a force, sometimes with heat and light.

*points out the episode where Goku was sleeping in SSJ and Krillin hit him with a rock*. ^_^

Yeah. It's filler, and a gag, but yeah.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:37 am

To play devil's advocate, I remember seeing on the forums occasions when people would say the characters always generate ki barriers non-stop; the reason we don't see it is because it's a weaker barrier than when they focus one. Essentially these people were trying to use sci-fi explanations for when powerful ki blasts hit someone without killing them or ripping up their clothes. Basically they nabbed the old Superman explanation for why is his clothes never ripped (from the era when his uniform wasn't Kryptonian).

Kroni_Hunter · Post by **Kroni_Hunter** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:46 pm

There is a scene in the Saiyaman saga where Gohan is about the fight some regular human, and Videl distracts him long enough for the guy to land a sucker punch. The punch sends Gohan flying back, but he is completely unhurt. The human, however, has an injured hand and says it felt like he had just punched solid steel.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:55 pm

Kroni_Hunter wrote:There is a scene in the Saiyaman saga where Gohan is about the fight some regular human, and Videl distracts him long enough for the guy to land a sucker punch. The punch sends Gohan flying back, but he is completely unhurt. The human, however, has an injured hand and says it felt like he had just punched solid steel.

Totally filler.

Kroni_Hunter · Post by **Kroni_Hunter** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:05 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Kroni_Hunter wrote:There is a scene in the Saiyaman saga where Gohan is about the fight some regular human, and Videl distracts him long enough for the guy to land a sucker punch. The punch sends Gohan flying back, but he is completely unhurt. The human, however, has an injured hand and says it felt like he had just punched solid steel.
Totally filler.

True, but it doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. If you can just kill someone in their sleep with a knife Frieza would have been overthrown eventually.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:06 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Kroni_Hunter wrote:There is a scene in the Saiyaman saga where Gohan is about the fight some regular human, and Videl distracts him long enough for the guy to land a sucker punch. The punch sends Gohan flying back, but he is completely unhurt. The human, however, has an injured hand and says it felt like he had just punched solid steel.
Totally filler.

Plus he was prepared for it. I see it as being similar to Tekkai from One Piece. That said, at that point in the series it probably wouldn't take much effort at all to take a hit in the face from a normal person and not be hurt. I find it hard to imagine a knife bouncing off them while they sleep though.

Goku bit Freeza's tail at one point and left a mark. Are we to assume Goku turned his teeth into tiny Kienzans or something in order to pierce his skin? Or that they're just naturally as sharp as Trunks' sword? You could just call it another gag, I suppose. Gurd planned to impale Kuririn and Gohan with nothing more than a pointy log while they were paralyzed. Tao Pai Pai gave Tenshinhan a scar using an apparently normal blade, or is that before you guys think they were made of steel?

As for 'ki barriers that protect you and your clothes', I think that's just an aura. Sometimes you see them, sometimes you don't. It's not impossible that they could be used to protect yourself. You can deflect a ki blast with nothing more than a kiai shout, after all.

smiley · Post by **smiley** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:32 pm

Bussani wrote: Tao Pai Pai gave Tenshinhan a scar using an apparently normal blade, or is that before you guys think they were made of steel?

Most likely they're able to channel ki into weapons as well. Same reason why Freeza is torn into pieces by Trunks' sword even though he resisted the explosion of a planet.

Cold Skin · Post by **Cold Skin** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:23 pm

To me, it just seems that it is all decided by who's the most powerful between the one carrying the sword and the one receiving the hit.

- Trunks is more powerful than Freezer, so he can slice him in bits.

- Cold is weaker than Trunks, so the sword is of no use.

- Trunks tries the sword on Goku to test his strength, but Goku is stronger than him (at least at this moment, Goku stating that Trunks has held back when hitting him), so the sword is of no use.

- Trunks is weaker than 18, so the sword is of no use.

The question of being able to get killed by a simple knife in his sleep seems unlikely to me. First of all, Goku would probably sense an unlikely presence and wake up to dodge/stop the knife, is not sensing it before (however the anime would contradict since filler had Goku getting hit by a rock thrown by Krilin and totally caught by surprise).

But even without that, I doubt a knife with human strength would be able to cut through Goku, because his power must probably be at a certain level even at its basis. If you think of Krilin's blast going through Vegeta on Namek, Vegeta had to actually lower his power level to an unusually low degree to have that effect: if he had been - I don't know - caught by surprise by Krilin out of battle, meaning without bracing himself or preparing his aura or anything, the ball wouldn't go through him I guess, just explode on contact and hurt him at most. That's my point of view at least, nothing can cut through them if the power of the opponent is not close to theirs, and their power level, even when just resting, is too high for a simple human to be able to cut through with a knife or a gun. I don't think it's because of any aura, but as many people around here said, it's simply their resistance level which is high.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:50 pm

otakutrevan wrote:Well lets be honest here. Akira wasn't exactly one to go deep into plots and explanations, and with various contradictions. I just dont believe I could assassinate Goku in his sleep with a butter knife. Just sayin. Also freeza being killed by the sword that broke on andriod 18 is also hilarious.

You couldn`t kill him in his sleep with a butter knife because his training and his natural Sayan body make his body one hard body.

But, if you you tried to kill him in his sleep with a knife, a sword, an axe, whatever, Goku would feel it much more and, if it hurt him at all, it would hurt him a lot more than if his ready for it.

In fact, if he was ready for it, he wouldn`t even feel it. That because he would be using in ki and focusing it on defense.

But even his relaxed, sleeping body, with his power level suppressed, would be hard as hell.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:58 pm

Cold Skin wrote:But even without that, I doubt a knife with human strength would be able to cut through Goku, because his power must probably be at a certain level even at its basis. If you think of Krilin's blast going through Vegeta on Namek, Vegeta had to actually lower his power level to an unusually low degree to have that effect: if he had been - I don't know - caught by surprise by Krilin out of battle, meaning without bracing himself or preparing his aura or anything, the ball wouldn't go through him I guess, just explode on contact and hurt him at most. That's my point of view at least, nothing can cut through them if the power of the opponent is not close to theirs, and their power level, even when just resting, is too high for a simple human to be able to cut through with a knife or a gun. I don't think it's because of any aura, but as many people around here said, it's simply their resistance level which is high.

This is a good point. Like I said before, sometimes it's a conscious bracing for a strike, but other times you're just overflowing with power. For an attack much weaker than you, you probably wouldn't even have to try.

However, I think being unconscious may be different to being awake. Vegeta couldn't scratch the Ginyu Force members after Gurd, but he finished all of them off pretty easily once they were out cold.

Also, yeah; the person wielding the conventional weapon matters more than the weapon itself. In anime, a skilled enough swordsman could cut a mountain in half with a wooden sword, as an exaggerated example.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:02 pm

Bussani wrote:Also, yeah; the person wielding the conventional weapon matters more than the weapon itself. In anime, a skilled enough swordsman could cut a mountain in half with a wooden sword, as an exaggerated example.

How does a couple-foot-long sword cut through a mile-wide mountain.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:04 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Bussani wrote:Also, yeah; the person wielding the conventional weapon matters more than the weapon itself. In anime, a skilled enough swordsman could cut a mountain in half with a wooden sword, as an exaggerated example.
How does a couple-foot-long sword cut through a mile-wide mountain.

The swing creates a shockwave so perfectly concentrated, powerful and vast that it cuts the mountain.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:34 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Bussani wrote:Also, yeah; the person wielding the conventional weapon matters more than the weapon itself. In anime, a skilled enough swordsman could cut a mountain in half with a wooden sword, as an exaggerated example.
How does a couple-foot-long sword cut through a mile-wide mountain.

How does a gesture from Freeza cut miles of landscape in half?

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:57 pm

Well, here's what I think. The reason that Goku was able to defend himself against Trunks' sword was by generating chi into his finger so it wouldn't harm him. I believe that #18 did the same thing when Trunks attacked her with the sword, only she used a different energy source than chi (like, some kind of artificial energy). Since androids don't have chi, of course. I've heard things like invisible chi barriers and stuff like that, but really, it should all just be a matter of generating energy into a part of your body to resist against an attack.

I believe Goku also did the same thing when Bulma shot him with her gun. Of course, he didn't have the extent of chi knowledge or power that Super Saiyan Goku or #18 had, but he was at least able to put up some sort of energy-sourced resistance against the bullet. As for if someone was able to stab through Goku with a knife while he was sleeping...well, I can't imagine him really being able to defend against it if he wasn't using his chi at the time, although it shouldn't do any real damage to his body. It'd be like someone slapping you in the face. It'd hurt for a moment, but it wouldn't put you in hospital. I mean, I don't believe the knife would just bounce off him. It's like in that filler episode with Kuririn hurting a sleeping SSJ Goku with a rock. Kuririn thought that the rock would break against Goku's head, but because Goku was at rest and not using his chi so much as to resist against a rock, it hurt him. I know the scene is a gag, but if you want an in-story explanation, there it is.
Also, with Trunks' sword. King Cold made the fatal mistake by thinking that it was Trunks' sword that enabled him to destroy Freeza. Trunks, of course, proved that this theory was wrong by blocking the sword's strike and subsequently killing Cold. My theory, a theory which I am sure many other DB fans share, is that Trunks' sword alone is nothing. If someone like Bulma tried to kill Freeza with it, it wouldn't do anything. So the theory is that Trunks channelled his own chi into the sword. I don't know why Trunks even carried the sword in the first place, though. No other Z-Fighter fought with a weapon, and he would've fared just as well as if he had not used a sword. If it was his own power fueling the sword, why use it when he could fight with his own power? Maybe Toriyama just thought that it was cool to have a warrior with a weapon -- and I thought it was pretty cool too.