Gohan vs. Dabura

[Maphisto86]

We've already established that he can use SSj 2 effortlessly.

Really? I still don't think so since SSJ 1 needed to be trained in order to be used effortlessly and didn't come naturally after the first transformation. Still it is likely that Gohan did train some of the time after the Cell saga using SSJ2 so that he mastered it. Sorry for the moot point but my previous post outlined how I always approached the problem. To me the paradox is that Gohan was no longer "having fun" after seeing what Dabura could do in a fight and the fact that he had to kill the demon king to save Kuririn and Piccolo makes it odd that he would hold back. So if he was not SSJ2 at any time during his battle with Dabura, then why not? Was SSJ2 only marginally stronger because Gohan shirked his training in the last few years?

[Kaboom]

This is probably impossible to answer since there are plenty of arguments for and against. Mr. Toriyama has not always been consistant in how he shows the SSJ states throughout every panel of manga they are present. While he is much more accurate then the animators at Toei, it's possible Mr. Toriyama just did not care by then to be make the few subtle changes in hair and aura between SSJ1 or SSJ2.

On the contrary, the Majin Boo arc is probably the most consistent when it comes to making the SSj stages each visually distinct. Since there were three altogether now, it was even more important to make sure it was easy to tell the difference between each one without having to be told.

We've already established that he can use SSj 2 effortlessly.

Apparently not, since he's stated and shown to be unable to use it like he should against Dabra.

[JulieYBM]

I think the Gohan not trying to kill Dabra quickly is a bit of regrettable writing on Toriyama's part. From my perspective, as a writer of fan fiction, Gohan could've had a bit more interesting a arc if a bit more urgency was given to the fact two of his friends and mentors had their lives on the line, but that's what happens when you write on the seat of your pants.

[Ultimate_DB_Fan]

Was SSJ2 only marginally stronger because Gohan shirked his training in the last few years?

Now that's a theory there, my friend. I would say I agree with that possibility. Lack of training for a couple of years = not that much of a boost when turning SSJ2. Add on the fact that Gohan's dormant power was extracted later on when it all should've been there while fighting Dabra, you have the potential answer right there.

[Savage68]

he's stated and shown to be unable to use it like he should against Dabra.

Neither of these is the case. His SSj 2 is never even mentioned after the Budokai.

[Rocketman]

Mr. Toriyama has not always been consistant in how he shows the SSJ states throughout every panel of manga they are present.

I don't like this explanation because after Vegeta goes Majin, Gohan is shown without lightning, then the scene will cut to Goku and Vegeta fight, both surrounded by it.

I think he can go SS2, he just doesn't want to. The last time he was he got his dad killed by getting carried away with revenge.

The fight with Dabura is cut short before Gohan even needs to go above Super Saiyan, and Buu is so overwhelming, Gohan doesn't have time to bring his power out.

[Bussani]

Gohan had some control on it, at least, since he did transform into Super Saiyan 2 at will. In addition to the Goku example, Gohan powered down to SSJ and then back up to SSJ2 after Super Perfect Cell returned. Albeit, you could say that in both those situations, they were triggered by rage, however little.

Yeah, that's what I meant. There were times that Goku and Gohan transformed even without training to, but I think that's still different than being able to do it with a snap of their fingers, like Goku can when he returns to Earth.

I guess you could say that you have to be in the right state of mind, which Goku was when he reactivated SSJ against Freeza, and Gohan was when he reactivated SSJ2 against Cell, and maybe when he used it in front of Kibito too. But the trick would be training to enter that state of mind no matter what the situation was. Sort of like reaching enlightenment, but...with rage?

Or something like that, anyway. Don't take how I've worded it too literally.

[Maphisto86]

This is probably impossible to answer since there are plenty of arguments for and against. Mr. Toriyama has not always been consistant in how he shows the SSJ states throughout every panel of manga they are present. While he is much more accurate then the animators at Toei, it's possible Mr. Toriyama just did not care by then to be make the few subtle changes in hair and aura between SSJ1 or SSJ2.

On the contrary, the Majin Boo arc is probably the most consistent when it comes to making the SSj stages each visually distinct. Since there were three altogether now, it was even more important to make sure it was easy to tell the difference between each one without having to be told.

I'll take your word for it since I don't own ANY of the manga yet (or should I say still!:oops:). It's been a while since I read this particular part of the Buu saga and I wish I remember all the lines concerning Gohan and his abilities (or lack thereof). I think it's safe to say Gohan's ability to fight waned signifcantly because he just did not care about keeping up with his Dad (since he was dead) or Vegeta; he lacked the passion for fighting that drove the other two. While it's possible that Gohan was holding back because he wanted to show mercy to Dabura like he did Cell, I somehow doubt this is the case since he knew bad guys like them did not appreciate mercy and Dabura was likely not toying around.

A real head scratcher whether Gohan could'nt or wouldn't go SSJ2 and finish off Dabura knowing how much was at stake. Not just Piccolo and Kuririn but the entire universe was supposedly in danger due to Majin Buu. In-universe it has got to do with Gohan's strength level or some other aspect of his fighting ability taking a hit from years of studying more than training.

[Bussani]

I'll take your word for it since I don't own ANY of the manga yet (or should I say still!:oops:). It's been a while since I read this particular part of the Buu saga and I wish I remember all the lines concerning Gohan and his abilities (or lack thereof). I think it's safe to say Gohan's ability to fight waned signifcantly because he just did not care about keeping up with his Dad (since he was dead) or Vegeta; he lacked the passion for fighting that drove the other two. While it's possible that Gohan was holding back because he wanted to show mercy to Dabura like he did Cell, I somehow doubt this is the case since he knew bad guys like them did not appreciate mercy and Dabura was likely not toying around.

Holding back may have been subconscious. Even when fighting Cell's massive Earth/Solar System killing Kamehameha Gohan didn't seem to realize he was holding back until Goku told him to just let go. Even if he wanted to go all out against Dabura, there may have been some part of him still holding back. Again, maybe just a state-of-mind thing.

[Savage68]

Holding back may have been subconscious. Even when fighting Cell's massive Earth/Solar System killing Kamehameha Gohan didn't seem to realize he was holding back until Goku told him to just let go.

I think you added this part in by mistake.

[rereboy]

Holding back may have been subconscious. Even when fighting Cell's massive Earth/Solar System killing Kamehameha Gohan didn't seem to realize he was holding back until Goku told him to just let go.

I think you added this part in by mistake.

No, Cell states in the original manga (when he`s preparing his final Kamehameha) that he has enough power to destroy the Solar System.

(Of course his kamehameha wouldn`t destroy the solar system because it wouldn`t hit the sun and every planet in the solar system at the same time. They are far from each other. But if he somehow could get them all "lined up" in a way that he could hit them all at once, I think that he could destroy them all, considering that even Sayan Arc Vegeta had enough power to destroy the Earth. So I think thats what he meant)

[Savage68]

Yeah, Cell said he could've destroyed the solar system the same way Piccolo Daimou said he could destroy the world.

Even by DBZ standards, solar system-busting isn't possible with a Kamehameha, or anything for that matter.

[Godo]

Yeah, Cell said he could've destroyed the solar system the same way Piccolo Daimou said he could destroy the world.

Even by DBZ standards, solar system-busting isn't possible with a Kamehameha, or anything for that matter.

I don't think that he meant that he could just shoot a beam and the solar system would be done for. I think that he meant that he could effortlessly destroy the solar system, like in the way Broly blasted planets in movie 8.

he's stated and shown to be unable to use it like he should against Dabra.

Neither of these is the case. His SSj 2 is never even mentioned after the Budokai.

It is. Goku mentions to Gohan (before he leaves to fight Majin Vegeta), that Gohan should mobilize his full power. Only in that way he could reach the strength he had when he fought Cell.
And then it also answers why some of us think that the "subconcious" factor plays a role, just like it did in the Cell games when Gohan destroyed Cell as he let loose his boundaries at Goku's command.

[Savage68]

I don't think that he meant that he could just shoot a beam and the solar system would be done for. I think that he meant that he could effortlessly destroy the solar system, like in the way Broly blasted planets in movie 8.

Like systematically leveling every planet and planetary body in the solar system? If that's the case, anyone could do that.

Goku mentions to Gohan (before he leaves to fight Majin Vegeta), that Gohan should mobilize his full power. Only in that way he could reach the strength he had when he fought Cell.

He only said to 'get angry' like he did when he fought Cell. This doesn't explicitly indicate that Goku is referring to SSj 2. I said that 'Gohan's SSj 2' was never mentioned by anyone. But of course, this, like pretty much everything involving this discussion is left open to personal interpretation.

And then it also answers why some of us think that the "subconcious" factor plays a role, just like it did in the Cell games when Gohan destroyed Cell as he let loose his boundaries at Goku's command

Gohan wasn't subconsciously holding back, he was consciously doing so because of his fear of damaging the Earth.

[rereboy]

Yeah, Cell said he could've destroyed the solar system the same way Piccolo Daimou said he could destroy the world.

Even by DBZ standards, solar system-busting isn't possible with a Kamehameha, or anything for that matter.

If it was possible to hit all the planets and the sun of the solar system, at the same time, Cell would have enough energy to destroy them all. That`s what I think he meant.

Otherwise, like you said, "anyone" would be able to do it and it wouldn`t be an impressive statement. So why would Cell say it?

But anyway, thats offtopic.

[Maphisto86]

Well destroying a solar system would probably only require destroying the sun. Yet this is a bit off-topic . . .

Goku mentions to Gohan (before he leaves to fight Majin Vegeta), that Gohan should mobilize his full power. Only in that way he could reach the strength he had when he fought Cell.

He only said to 'get angry' like he did when he fought Cell. This doesn't explicitly indicate that Goku is referring to SSj 2. I said that 'Gohan's SSj 2' was never mentioned by anyone. But of course, this, like pretty much everything involving this discussion is left open to personal interpretation.

And then it also answers why some of us think that the "subconcious" factor plays a role, just like it did in the Cell games when Gohan destroyed Cell as he let loose his boundaries at Goku's command

Gohan wasn't subconsciously holding back, he was consciously doing so because of his fear of damaging the Earth.

When Gohan was fighting Dabura, I don't believe they where on Earth anymore due to Babidi's magic teleporting them to other realms. On the issue of Goku's comment, he very well could be indirectly referring to Gohan becoming SSJ2 because getting angry is what caused the transformation to happen in the first place and also allowed Gohan to tap into his latent energies as a boy without having any training. Still, this theory is far from certain.

[mAcChaos]

Cell said he could blow away the solar system and he can do it. It doesn't make sense in real life, but it's not real life. Just accept it. He was going to blow it all up in one humongous mind numbingly gigantic blast.

I don't think Gohan could go SSJ2 after the Cell Saga. Going SSJ is something that only is triggered when the person loses all control, and then has to undergo training to be able to discipline themselves to use it on command, like Goku did when he came back to Earth. Gohan never did that, so there's no reason that he would just be able to go SSJ2 again. I believe he was SSJ1 all the way up through Dabura and Buu. He WAS building up to go SSJ2 again, but he got taken out too fast.

[Bussani]

Holding back may have been subconscious. Even when fighting Cell's massive Earth/Solar System killing Kamehameha Gohan didn't seem to realize he was holding back until Goku told him to just let go.

I think you added this part in by mistake.

To be completely honest, I added it as a joke since nobody can ever agree whether Cell could do it or not. Seems like that was a bad idea, since all it did was start up that same discussion again. Oy...

Gohan wasn't subconsciously holding back, he was consciously doing so because of his fear of damaging the Earth.

I'm not sure you could prove that he was consciously holding back. Yes, not wanting to destroy the Earth was the reason, but that doesn't mean it was a conscious decision and not a subconscious block. You can hold back without even thinking about it. Heck, most people do it every time they throw a punch. Part of many martial arts is learning to overcome that. "What, are you afraid of the board?"

It never struck me as being a conscious decision. Gohan really seemed to think that he was doing his best before Goku told him he wasn't. Sure, I could be wrong...but you could be wrong too.

[Rocketman]

Cell said he could blow away the solar system and he can do it. It doesn't make sense in real life, but it's not real life. Just accept it. He was going to blow it all up in one humongous mind numbingly gigantic blast.

But then Gohan fires an equally huge blast that overpowers Cell's and nothing happens to the Earth, much less the solar system...

I don't think Gohan could go SSJ2 after the Cell Saga.

Except he does, at the World Tournament.

[Savage68]

Cell said he could blow away the solar system and he can do it. It doesn't make sense in real life, but it's not real life. Just accept it. He was going to blow it all up in one humongous mind numbingly gigantic blast.

Using the excuse that it's just a comic or cartoon doesn't work.

If Cell seriously could make a blast massive enough to destroy their solar system, then that just means all of their planet-busting feats aren't even that impressive by our standards. But then, what do you expect from a series that's been breaking the laws of conservation and relativity since the 21st Budokai?