Dabra v. SSJ Goku - Interesting match?

[Savage68]

It's far less ridiculous than the idea that Gohan lost nearly half of his power over the last seven years, and that as an SSJ2 now he's barely stronger than he was an SSJ1 at the Cell Games.

Yeah, it is. So...who thinks this is the case? I know I don't.

It's not even so much about the fact that he fought Cell at that power but that one someone references something/someone they refrence what they are most familiar with.

Goku was comparing their powers. He's not any more familiar with Cell's supressed powers than he is with his full-power. He didn't sense one any more accurately than the other.

If Goku had meant Cell's full power, why didn't he say "He's about as strong as this game named Cell was when he revealed his full power" instead of "He's about as strong as this guy named Cell that we fought seven years ago"?

What the hell? You just proved my point - he was talking about Cell, as he was throughout the entire battle against them all, since he fought more than just Goku.

When Goku said he could beat Fat Buu, why didn't he say, "I could've beaten him, if he was at his full power"...? Because he didn't need to; no one would assume he's talking about some supressed form when citing a character that already revealed their true power.

Plus, Gohan was given time to just stand around and transform with Kibito, so of course he could get there. He was not given such time with Dabura.

He didn't need time. He just turned SSJ2 when he wanted to. And he was just standing around in front of Dabura, too, stated that he was angry already, and had more of a reason to be angry.

And he had real anger then, not some leftover anger from a problem that had already been rectified. He was the only one that could save his friends lives, and was unsure of his ability to beat Dabura. That would give him more of a "desperation boost" than anything.

I don't know why you're trying to say Kaioshin was the only one concerned, when Goku tells Gohan to bring out more power than he had used already, and Gohan is nervous. And he's up against someone that he couldn't beat in their first match. How could he not be concerned? Are you saying he had it in the bag?

Except that it clearly was out of reach for him at that time, which is what the manga clearly demonstrates to us. Yeah, he was worked up, he was angry, but he wasn't angry enough to draw out his power and go SSJ2. He may have been sure of himself earlier, but he was clearly doubting himself later.

Yeah, because he was already using his strongest form. Now it looks like you're backtracking. On one hand, you vehemently argue that Gohan at the Budokai, though confident in his ability to go SSJ2, needed to use some residual anger from what was essentially no longer an issue to ascend.

But on other other hand, you don't think he had enough anger when he was in a seruios battle, with people's lives at stake. Even though he said that he was angry, something that he visibly was as well, but was not at the Budokai. Gohan specifically mentioned what he had lost since the battle with Cell. We all know he didn't lose SSJ2, but rather that he lost power.

Another thing. We saw the peak of Gohan's anger, and he only turned SSJ1. How is some leftover anger from a non-issue supposed to produce a greater effect than that?

Nearly half of what he used to have? I'm sorry, but he doesn't indicate he's lost nearly that much power.

And the only thing that supports SSJ2 Gohan vs. Dabura is the Daizenshuu, and the Daizenshuu claims that Gohan's power hasn't changed at all since the Cell Games.

Don't care about any guides, which I thought would be obvious in that I never, ever brought any of them up. The thought never even crossed my mind.

Where are you getting this 'he lost half his power' stuff from, too? Because that would be a stupid position for anyone to take.

Why? Oh, maybe because he can't use his full power at will? Hell, IIRC, Gohan was never even said to have powered-up from his 'resting' level during his 'fight' with Cell. And he never actually fought Cell seriously, either. Not until going SSJ2.

Okay. Nothing in this post makes any sense at all and sounds worse than something from YouTube. I'm not even touching it.

your stance that Gohan has to be SSJ2, and Toriyama simply "forgot" to draw him that way, despite doing so with Goku and Vegeta at the same time as not doing so with Gohan.

...Toriyama "forgot" to draw Gohan that way? I'd like to know who thinks this, so I can give them a swift kick in the arse.

Jesus, this is the Internet. Encountering a stance that you think is completely stupid isn't anything new, as we all very well know. That doesn't mean you have to be condesending about it.

[Kaboom]

He uses it effortlessly and confidently at the Budokai. He was sure that he could achieve SSJ2 after 7 years of not having done so.

"Effortlessly?" He stood there powering up for so long that the audience was getting impatient and started yelling at him and Kibito. Even in the manga.

Also, you keep claiming there's actions and statements to support Gohan being Super Saiyan 2. But you still haven't actually let anyone in on what they are. Your argument thus far is best summed up as, "why wouldn't he?" That's not good enough. The burden of proof is now on you.

[hleV]

Another thing. Why would Daizenshuu claim that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura if he "obviously was not"?

Maybe Daizenshuu author(s) simply found it as an inconsistency and decided that Gohan had to be SSJ2 there. The only question now is if Toriyama really rewised it and aproved it.

[Kaboom]

Another thing. Why would Daizenshuu claim that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura if he "obviously was not"?

A typo or something, maybe? It actually contradicts another section where instances of Gohan using SSj2 were listed, and the volume with the Dabra fight was not included.

[Savage68]

"Effortlessly?" He stood there powering up for so long that the audience was getting impatient and started yelling at him and Kibito. Even in the manga.

Gohan and Kibito were talking and just standing around before the powering-up started. The crowd's impatience isn't a measuring tool for Gohan's transformation, since the match was dull before SSJ was even brought up.

Also, you keep claiming there's actions and statements to support Gohan being Super Saiyan 2. But you still haven't actually let anyone in on what they are. Your argument thus far is best summed up as, "why wouldn't he?"

I said that...twice, I believe.

Since we're acting silly now, yours can be summed up as, "He looks like, and that's just that." Don't act like there's nothing more to my argument than some vague statement with no backing, because you and I both know that's a lie. If I haven't actually provided any reasons, what were all of those responses to my comments you posted earlier? Were they were all responses to me simply saying, "Why wouldn't he?" Surely someone such as yourself that's shut down this 'stupid argument' on bad forums so many times before would have a detailed refutation prepared for anything, no matter how dumb it sounds.

That's not good enough. The burden of proof is now on you.

I know. That's why I provided the proof.

[Kaboom]

That's not good enough. The burden of proof is now on you.

I know. That's why I provided the proof.

Please re-summarize for me, then. I guess I've missed them among the long posts.

[Xyex]

Another thing. Why would Daizenshuu claim that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura if he "obviously was not"?

Maybe Daizenshuu author(s) simply found it as an inconsistency and decided that Gohan had to be SSJ2 there. The only question now is if Toriyama really rewised it and aproved it.

The Daizenshuu also has a list of all times Gohan used SSJ2 in the series... and the Dabura fight is not included.

However, why would they list it here? Well, as I mentioned before, the Daizneshuu claims that Gohan's power is unchanged since the Cell Games. His slacking off didn't reduce his power, it just stopped it from going up. Therefore, it seems to me that the Daizenshuu staff were under the impression that Goku was comparing Dabura to SPC and that Gohan must therefore have been an SSJ2 at the time. And then likely didn't go and actually check their facts in the manga (which would explain a lot of their other inconsistencies, too) before putting it in.

[Kaboom]

And then likely didn't go and actually check their facts in the manga (which would explain a lot of their other inconsistencies, too) before putting it in.

"Hmmm, Trunks says he can put up a good fight against his Androids, but these ones kicked his butt."
"Excellent! So the future ones must be weaker than the present ones! List it! Print it!"
"... Oh wait a sec, they say they were toying with him later, so it's probably just that..."
"TOO LATE! Wheeee!"

[Dayspring]

When Goku says Dabura is equal to Cell, he means when he fought Cell. We see by his asking Kaio where Cell is that he can't sense Super Perfect Cell's strength from the afterlife. Since Cell-Games SSJ Gohan could kill that Cell had he fought seriously, it makes perfect sense that a weaker version of SSJ Gohan would struggle against someone equal to that Cell. I never see why Gohan would need SSJ2 to fight against Dabura. Added to that, the artwork is consistently "wrong" ONLY in these panels, whereas SSJ2 is consistently correct everywhere else? That doesn't add up to me. One or two panels, sure, but all of them and only where Gohan is fighting Dabura? Not as much.

So would SSJ Goku vs Dabura make an interesting fight? Nope. This Goku's surpassed the Gohan of old, so he would kick Dabura's ass too easily.

[Dayspring]

And then likely didn't go and actually check their facts in the manga (which would explain a lot of their other inconsistencies, too) before putting it in.

"Hmmm, Trunks says he can put up a good fight against his Androids, but these ones kicked his butt."
"Excellent! So the future ones must be weaker than the present ones! List it! Print it!"
"... Oh wait a sec, they say they were toying with him later, so it's probably just that..."
"TOO LATE! Wheeee!"

My personal favorite is rounding down a semi-known BP (Goku's 'over 8,000'), yet not rounding down made-up ones (Krillin, etc) on the same frickin' page. It's apparently easier to introduce a mistake than to consistantly make up random stuff.

[goku the krump dancer]

I really think its completely obvious that Goku would win against Dabura with no problem.

[Savage68]

That's not good enough. The burden of proof is now on you.

I know. That's why I provided the proof.

Please re-summarize for me, then. I guess I've missed them among the long posts.

I'll decline. If you "don't see it", then I guess I'll just have to take your word for that and assume you sincerely don't see it. Do what you have to do.

[Son_Gohan]

But if he was using SSJ1, than it would've been indicated somewhere that he wasn't using his strongest form, which he had previously shown was capable of using no problem. When Vegeta gets impatient while Dabura is fighting Gohan, would've been the appropriate time to make such a statement, but neither he or Goku seem to suggest that he was holding back or wasn't trying his best.

It was indicated he wasn't using his strongest form, with Goku's 'get angry' and so forth. No one thought he was holding back, because he wasn't. He simply wasn't able to transform.

If what you are saying is that "getting angry" is a requirement for his transformation into SSJ2, then why aren't you arguing that his Super Saiyan appearance during Videl's match was that of a SSJ2 as well? It is the only time that anger (to a profound degree) and a transformation were present, the two requisites to the logic you've presented. His SSJ2 transformation in his match against Kibito was clearly not induced by anger, if you argue that there was some residual from the previous match, then there is no reason to omit the fact that his anger was at his highest previously and would naturally be something he'd want to achieve later on.

Goku doesn't mention anything about forms, and he had earlier just witnessed Gohan transform into SSJ2 without requiring an intense rage. Why would the significance of the word "anger" change from what it's always been for Gohan; a method of gaining power, to now a term used to label a transformation? Gohan not being "able" to transform is a big deal, it is not something which can be bypassed and neglected, leaving it upon a reader's own interpretation to figure out. It is something that would've been addressed if not by any other characters, than by Gohan himself; he doesn't even have to 'say' it, he could just think it. Yet being unable to use SSJ2 wasn't even a thought in his mind or had any concern to him because it was never an issue to begin with.

[hleV]

Now when you think about it, I can't see why Gohan went SSJ2 back in the tournament.

Kibito simply asked if Gohan could go SSJ to see if he was able to help them and then, without any big reason, Gohan decided to not go SSJ, but a level beyond that.

I think Gohan's psychology (after seeing how Videl got beaten although she was healed right away) might have had something to do with it after all.

[Piccolo Daimao]

And, yet again, this thread has derailed into another age-old "Gohan: SSJ2 or not?" argument. So I'll just put in my 2 cents and escape before it gets nasty.

Personally, I believe that Son Goku was comparing Dabra to the suppressed Cell he fought at the Cell Games, but this is just a rough estimation. Nonetheless, this would put Dabra at around suppressed Perfect Cell's level of power. However, later Goku states that Dabra is stronger than he fought, and this is after he references his magic power. To me, this implies that, not that Dabra is stronger than Cell, but that if the two had a fight, Dabra would have the advantage due to his magic powers. And remember, just because Goku thinks that Dabra is stronger than he fought, doesn't automatically mean Dabra is better than Cell in terms of battle strength. Actually, I take that back. If Dabra's stronger than Cell, it's only by a little. As I aforementioned, Goku's estimation of Dabra's power was a rough one at best.

Now, Dabra had an even fight with SSJ Gohan, who is weaker than the SSJ Gohan at the Cell Games. However, I would still have Buu-arc SSJ Gohan at a stronger level than Cell-arc SSJ Goku. Therefore, I think that SSJ Goku would have an even battle with Dabra, but Dabra would have the advantage, what with his magic and being a tad stronger than suppressed Perfect Cell.

[Dayspring]

It was indicated he wasn't using his strongest form, with Goku's 'get angry' and so forth. No one thought he was holding back, because he wasn't. He simply wasn't able to transform.

If what you are saying is that "getting angry" is a requirement for his transformation into SSJ2, then why aren't you arguing that his Super Saiyan appearance during Videl's match was that of a SSJ2 as well? It is the only time that anger (to a profound degree) and a transformation were present, the two requisites to the logic you've presented. His SSJ2 transformation in his match against Kibito was clearly not induced by anger, if you argue that there was some residual from the previous match, then there is no reason to omit the fact that his anger was at his highest previously and would naturally be something he'd want to achieve later on.

Goku doesn't mention anything about forms, and he had earlier just witnessed Gohan transform into SSJ2 without requiring an intense rage. Why would the significance of the word "anger" change from what it's always been for Gohan; a method of gaining power, to now a term used to label a transformation? Gohan not being "able" to transform is a big deal, it is not something which can be bypassed and neglected, leaving it upon a reader's own interpretation to figure out. It is something that would've been addressed if not by any other characters, than by Gohan himself; he doesn't even have to 'say' it, he could just think it. Yet being unable to use SSJ2 wasn't even a thought in his mind or had any concern to him because it was never an issue to begin with.

Anger has always been Gohan's Ace since the battle with Radditz. It gives him an enormous boost of power. This power is needed to go SSJ2 because he's become so friggin' weak. In ROSAT, Gohan learned to control that anger so he could transform into regular SSJ. In regards to no anger against Kibito, he takes his time doing 'something' to the point that he becomes half-SSJ (SSJ aura+eyes). When he transforms, this causes him to jump straight to SSJ2. So he either he spent that time slowly gathering up power so that he's at a point where transforming takes him beyond SSJ, or he's slowly increasing his anger. Regardless, he doesn't have the time to just sit there and focus while in battle with Dabura, so they tell him to get angry. If it is rage-related, problem solved. If it's power-related, then getting angry will give him the boost he needs.

[Savage68]

In regards to no anger against Kibito, he takes his time doing 'something' to the point that he becomes half-SSJ (SSJ aura+eyes).

Yeah...he's powering-up, and/or artistic license. Similar to how it took Goku a lot longer in his first showing of SSJ3, but later on, he transformed into it instantly. Seriously, this can't be used to further anyone's argument. Gohan hadn't used SSJ2 in 7 years, and after only one fight using the form and in a heightened state of strength. It'd take a while to start it up, with or without anger.

And Gohan didn't need to get angry against Dabura. Since, you know, he already was. He wouldn't take the same exact amount of panels as it took at the Budokai for him to ascend the second time around. And I seriously doubt he was strapped for time before his first match against Dabura, anyway.

As I've said before, we saw Gohan's anger at it's pinnacle in the Buu arc - when Videl was first injured. And Gohan was pushed all the way up to...SSJ1. After that, he calmed down. Then he healed Videl's injuries and wasn't worried about her anymore. Then, he faced a guy that he had no reason to be angry at. Then, he confidently requests to go past SSJ1 of his own volition, and for essentially no good reason, other than to show off. Just doesn't seem like he used his anger leftovers to ascend, if you ask me. Depending on examples from before he mastered his optimal form and reached it's limit doesn't do anyone any favors, either. That anger eventually culminated as SSJ2. He's not The Hulk.

[Mewzard]

Also, he should be more mad at Dabura, as both his long time master, and his friend of many years are both turned to stone, and a new ally, Kibito, is killed. By who? Dabura. Whereas he's already passed the anger of Videl being beaten and she was fully on the mend with a sensu.

Logically speaking, if he turned SSJ2 during the tournament, then there's NO reason not to during the fight. Plus, his hair is as his SSJ2 style, not SSJ1, just without the lightning.

Why would he not go all out on a foe he was struggling against, in order to save his friends and stop a villain? Dabura had reason to drag out the fight, to gain as much energy as possible. In the end, it still didn't seem to be Dabura's peak to me, in the manga, Gohan was transformed for the whole visible fight, and Dabura was doing all of the damaging. All Gohan managed to do was break his sword and land a few punches, while in the next panel? Dabura's not tired at all, and tells Babidi of Vegeta. Gohan, meanwhile, is sweating, clothes ruffed up, and staring down a foe who seems untouched (pulled out my volume to check it).

So, I'd say a comparison to Super Perfect Cell, with Gohan being somewhat weaker is fair. Gohan wasn't even shown in a large number of panels. I'd say Toriyama, who was clearly getting tired of years of nonstop weekly work (and avoided anything long like Dragon Ball ever again), just did a shortcut to save himself some time and effort.

[Kaboom]

I'd say Toriyama, who was clearly getting tired of years of nonstop weekly work (and avoided anything long like Dragon Ball ever again), just did a shortcut to save himself some time and effort.

That's completely bogus, because if so then every. other. instance. of Super Saiyan 2 was consistently drawn with the correct aura and the lightning bolts within it. Even on Goku and Vegeta with their fight, during which it was cutting back and forth to Gohan as a Super Saiyan 1. It's not an art inconsistency.

There's a very good reason why Gohan didn't go Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra. Because he's unpracticed with it. He hasn't trained much at all, much less in order to perfect and control the new transformation since he first pulled it out on Cell. It took him a lot of time and effort to reach it when facing off with Kibito, and while we can't assume, I doubt that Dabra would allow him the same luxury.

As for anger, despite Piccolo's predicament, Gohan clearly wasn't very pissed off in Bobbidi's ship. He, Goku, and Vegeta were having fun and treating the whole thing like a game. Goku even encouraged him to get angry so that he could win, which presumably also means to transform further.

[Mewzard]

And Gohan was pissed off at the guy he's never met before, despite the fact that the girl (that he's know for all of what, two weeks?) that he was upset over, was fully healed, and in no danger? He has far, FAR, more reason to be mad against Dabura and that ship, than at Kibito , who did nothing. There was far more threat, at risk, and against him personally by Dabura than Kibito. If he could turn SSJ2 against Kibito, than there is no doubt in my mind that there is zero reason he couldn't, wouldn't, or shouldn't against Dabura. Showing Kibito SSJ2 was pointless, even. But, going SSJ2 to fight a foe that harmed your friends and save the world? Plenty of reason.