Dragonbox VS Orange Brick Sets....a few questions

[pjay]

Yeah, I'll only watch it in Japanese and have since late 1998 on fan sub tapes. One of the main reasons was that the US dub was not true to the original Japanese script. Which is why I can watch almost any other anime dubbed, provided that it's dubbed it true to the original Japanese script. Then again no matter how good a dub Funimation does on Kai, I'll still most likely watch it in Japanese because by now I'm just used to it.

[Questrider]

I had a feeling most of you would say Japanese...which begs this next questions:

What kind mistakes do they make in the translation? Is it only minor things here and there?
Are there a few specific cases worth mentioning where they completely botched the job?

Addionally, if I go home and watch my orange bricks and watch in Japanese WITH english subtitles, will the subtitles be accruate in terms of translation? (Or can the best translation ONLY be found within the Dragonbox?)

[jjgp1112]

I had a feeling most of you would say Japanese...which begs this next questions:

What kind mistakes do they make in the translation? Is it only minor things here and there?
Are there a few specific cases worth mentioning where they completely botched the job?

Addionally, if I go home and watch my orange bricks and watch in Japanese WITH english subtitles, will the subtitles be accruate in terms of translation? (Or can the best translation ONLY be found within the Dragonbox?)

Well, speaking as someone who watches the dub with Japanese subtitles a lot more than the average person, it's just inconsistent at the most. During the Frieza saga, the translation is kinda wonky, but really, outside of that, nothing that ='s really important or adds to the overall storyline is changed. Most of the changes are just unimportant conversations that don't matter in the large scope of things.

[Blue]

Addionally, if I go home and watch my orange bricks and watch in Japanese WITH english subtitles, will the subtitles be accruate in terms of translation? (Or can the best translation ONLY be found within the Dragonbox?)

The subtitles are the same on both sets. They are done by Mr.Simmons and he is one of the best translators out there.

(If only he'd do the original Dragon Ball *mumble grumble*)

If you want to see the differences between the original and the dub turn on the Japanese subtitles while you're watching the English version. This way you can compare the scripts and see for yourself.

[Kaboom]

Here's a follow up question:
Do most of you watch DBZ in english or do you watch in Japanese with subtitles?
Just curious.

Subbed Japanese. I like my dialogue and presentation the way it was originally intended. That goes for any product in any language. I can certainly enjoy an English dub when it's well-done, but really only as a pleasant novelty.

What kind mistakes do they make in the translation? Is it only minor things here and there?

A lot of times, they seem to be working with incomplete or sloppy translations of the Japanese script, which led to iffy dialogue. What's more, there were clear and intentional efforts in the early dubbing to "westernize" the show, making it more appealing to hyperactive American children rather than simply presenting the show as-is but in a different language. Meaningful or character-building lines tended to be replaced with bland or completely unrelated dialogue. All in all, there's a lot of little things changed which may not kill the overall story, but cheapen a lot of the emotional or character-based impact. At times, the show could almost have been seen as a self-parody.

Other members will be able to go over these changes in more detail.

Are there a few specific cases worth mentioning where they completely botched the job?

There's one particular exchange of dialogue which, I feel, captured the "essence" of the FUNimation dub in contrast to the original version. It was during the Androids' arc, soon after Cell had made his first appearance. I'll paraphrase...

Original
Kuririn: "Goku, we're up against people even stronger than Freeza now. Does that make you scared... or excited?"
Goku: "... Both."

Dubbed
Krillin: "Alright Goku! You can do it! Go ahead and get stronger!"
Goku: "You got it!"

The original line was a nice little glimpse into Goku's character, which ended up sparking some hope in Kuririn and the others afterwards. The dubbed dialogue that replaced it, however, was something dumb and mostly meaningless of that nature.

Additionally, if I go home and watch my orange bricks and watch in Japanese WITH english subtitles, will the subtitles be accruate in terms of translation? (Or can the best translation ONLY be found within the Dragonbox?)

Yes. DragonBall Z's subtitles for FUNimation, in both the Season Sets and Dragon Boxes, are done by a Mr. Steve Simmons (this forum's own Daimao), and his work is impeccable.

[jjgp1112]

For the scene you're talking about Kaboom, I've tried many times, but I can't think of a single way to get the general dialogue to match the mouth flaps without completely mangling the English language.

[Kaboom]

For the scene you're talking about Kaboom, I've tried many times, but I can't think of a single way to get the general dialogue to match the mouth flaps without completely mangling the English language.

At least you've tried.

[Blue]

The most infamous example is Vegeta's death scene on Namek. His entire speech is changed from telling Kakarot to embrace his Saiyan pride to "Freeza kidnapped me and made me a bad man!"

[Kaboom]

The most infamous example is Vegeta's death scene on Namek. His entire speech is changed from telling Kakarot to embrace his Saiyan pride to "Freeza kidnapped me and made me a bad man!"

Oooh, yes. I forgot. That's another general flaw the dub has. The protagonists aren't allowed to be bad guys. That particular "adjustment" was possibly at its worst with the dub of the Bardock special (which should be avoided at all costs, by the way; it's dub, that is. Not the special itself. The Bardock special is awesome in Japanese).

Bardock's speech at the end was changed to some heroic spiel where he tried to redeem the entire Saiyan race by saying they "won't do [his] dirty work anymore!" But in truth, the Saiyans enjoyed working for Freeza and wiping out civilizations and such. Bardock's only anger at Freeza was due to the double-cross.

[Blue]

The most infamous example is Vegeta's death scene on Namek. His entire speech is changed from telling Kakarot to embrace his Saiyan pride to "Freeza kidnapped me and made me a bad man!"

Oooh, yes. I forgot. That's another general flaw the dub has. The protagonists aren't allowed to be bad guys. That particular "adjustment" was possibly at its worst with the dub of the Bardock special (which should be avoided at all costs, by the way; it's dub, that is. Not the special itself. The Bardock special is awesome in Japanese).

Bardock's speech at the end was changed to some heroic spiel where he tried to redeem the entire Saiyan race by saying they "won't do [his] dirty work anymore!" But in truth, the Saiyans enjoyed working for Freeza and wiping out civilizations and such. Bardock's only anger at Freeza was due to the double-cross.

To further this point in the Android arc when Piccolo was talking to Vegeta about if he was capable of killing Android 20 Piccolo states "Don't forget I'm still the great demon king!" this was changed in the dub to a speech about how you gain nothing from killing and that he wasn't the old evil Piccolo anymore.

[Questrider]

@Kaboom-
Excellent post. That was a great example.
I can see how little things like this can slowly add up.

I would have prefered to have heard that original dialogue in english rather than what was translated as I agree: those small glimpses which give you more information on a character is simply priceless.

[VegettoEX]

For the scene you're talking about Kaboom, I've tried many times, but I can't think of a single way to get the general dialogue to match the mouth flaps without completely mangling the English language.

With modern dubbing techniques and audio adjustments, it's not impossible. You're just not trying hard enough.

ORIGINAL FUNIMATION DUB: "Alright Goku! You can do it! Go ahead and get stronger!" = 15 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #1: "They're even stronger than Freeza now. You scared... or excited?" = 15 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #2: "Goku, these bad guys are stronger than Freeza now. You scared... or excited?" = 18 syllables

ORIGINAL FUNIMATION DUB: "You got it!" = 3 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #1: "Well [or 'heh'], both!" = 2 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #2: "Kinda both!" = 3 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #3: "Honestly? Both!" = 4 syllables

Now obviously I don't have the footage in front of me to see if there are mid-sentence flaps and pauses to work around, but it's a matter of how much effort you want to put into it. Furthermore, it's only Americans and their Family Guy lip-sync atrocities that demand we have nearly-invisible, single-frame movements that attempt to match each and every position of the mouth -- which is unrealistic. Watch yourself in the mirror when you speak. Your mouth does not hit distinct positions with each little syllable you spurt out, even if you have perfect diction. You'll be in-between phases. The Japanese seem to understand that with their lip-flap dubbing, even in productions like Akira that went out of their way to have the mouth movements look accurate to the (Japanese) pronunciations.

I'm not entirely sure we need a thread dedicated to pointing out a bazillion differences between FUNimation's English dub and the original version of the series. There's a good deal of material available on a few websites (including one in particular ^_~), and suffice to say, the viewing experiences range anywhere from being kinda close but still different... to almost an entirely different show.

It's all a matter of (again) how invested you want to get with the franchise / how much you're willing to spend (both financially and time-wise), how much research you want to do, how willing you are to put up with a "reversioning" if and when the original is available to you / your own personal level of apathy vs curiosity, etc.

The nice thing is that it's all there available for you. The best thing to do is just dive-in head first and enjoy the crap out of it!

[jjgp1112]

Actually, he says that he was still created from the evil in Kami's heart and thus isn't as soft about everything as Goku is in the japanese version.

[Blue]

I would have prefered to have heard that original dialogue in english rather than what was translated as I agree: those small glimpses with give you more information on a character is simply priceless.

It's worth noting there's a new dub out for Dragon Ball Z Kai that follows the original script much, much more closely.

[Blue]

Actually, he says that he was still created from the evil in Kami's heart and thus isn't as soft about everything as Goku is in the japanese version.

Eh, essentially the same thing no?

[Adamant]

It's worth noting there's a new dub out for Dragon Ball Z Kai that follows the original script much, much more closely.

Though sadly, one that still insists on including a ton of dumb shit from their old dub to avoid confusing American dubbies with too good a product.

[pjay]

For the scene you're talking about Kaboom, I've tried many times, but I can't think of a single way to get the general dialogue to match the mouth flaps without completely mangling the English language.

With modern dubbing techniques and audio adjustments, it's not impossible. You're just not trying hard enough.

ORIGINAL FUNIMATION DUB: "Alright Goku! You can do it! Go ahead and get stronger!" = 15 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #1: "They're even stronger than Freeza now. You scared... or excited?" = 15 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #2: "Goku, these bad guys are stronger than Freeza now. You scared... or excited?" = 18 syllables

ORIGINAL FUNIMATION DUB: "You got it!" = 3 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #1: "Well [or 'heh'], both!" = 2 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #2: "Kinda both!" = 3 syllables
POSSIBLE TRANSLATION ADAPTATION #3: "Honestly? Both!" = 4 syllables

Now obviously I don't have the footage in front of me to see if there are mid-sentence flaps and pauses to work around, but it's a matter of how much effort you want to put into it. Furthermore, it's only Americans and their Family Guy lip-sync atrocities that demand we have nearly-invisible, single-frame movements that attempt to match each and every position of the mouth -- which is unrealistic. Watch yourself in the mirror when you speak. Your mouth does not hit distinct positions with each little syllable you spurt out, even if you have perfect diction. You'll be in-between phases. The Japanese seem to understand that with their lip-flap dubbing, even in productions like Akira that went out of their way to have the mouth movements look accurate to the (Japanese) pronunciations.

I'm not entirely sure we need a thread dedicated to pointing out a bazillion differences between FUNimation's English dub and the original version of the series. There's a good deal of material available on a few websites (including one in particular ^_~), and suffice to say, the viewing experiences range anywhere from being kinda close but still different... to almost an entirely different show.

It's all a matter of (again) how invested you want to get with the franchise / how much you're willing to spend (both financially and time-wise), how much research you want to do, how willing you are to put up with a "reversioning" if and when the original is available to you / your own personal level of apathy vs curiosity, etc.

The nice thing is that it's all there available for you. The best thing to do is just dive-in head first and enjoy the crap out of it!

Look first and foremost I have always wanted an accurate English dubbing of Dragon Ball Z (and the original DB also) that's the most important thing as far as I am concerned. The syncing to lips in animation is a totally different story. Sometimes even the original voices aren't synced up to every lip movement. But I have a feeling that they just have the mouth animated to move for a certain amount of time and hope that they can fill it with a voice. If I'm wrong about that last point I apologize.

[The Tori-bot]

What kind mistakes do they make in the translation? Is it only minor things here and there?
Are there a few specific cases worth mentioning where they completely botched the job?

Find me a line in the dub that's identical to the Japanese line, and you win a cookie. Most of the time it seemed as if the writers just took a glance at the original dialogue, then changed it as much as they could while keeping the plot intact. They've gotten better (the video games tend to use the original scripts), but the majority of it is completely off.

If you want the English voice actors, plus correctly-translated dialogue, look no further than Dragon Ball (Z) Kai. 90% of the time the dialogue is pretty much dead-on, and the quality of the acting is a little better overall. Plus, it's been trimmed down so the pacing is much quicker and less dragged-out. I'd definitely recommend picking it up.

[Questrider]

@Tori-bot-
I actually picked up the first Dragonball Z Kai DVD on Saturday and was able to watch the first episode. Probably will squeeze in a few more tonight.

It's going to take me awhile to get used to Kid Gohan's voice (and Bulma's) but I am excited to see them finally develop a series that more closely follows the manga.

(The opening new animation is just....jaw dropping. Makes me WISH they would create a NEW series with NEW characters, problems, story arcs, etc.)

[Castor Troy]

One of the absolute worst examples of line butchering was after Trunks departs and everyone is talking about how to stop Dr. Gero. I loved how the Japanese version emphasized on how everyone needed to focus on a common enemy and Vegeta making fun of Piccolo saying "aren't you the weakest one here?".

The dub completely botches this all up. Stuff like this prevents me from watching the dub even with the Japanese music.