Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

[Kaboom]

The only time Super Saiyan went to far was in GT, but that's GT for you.

Actually, I'd say GT pulled it off better than either Cell OR Boo. Instead of being just another step on the golden-haired lader, Oozaru was brought back into the mix and combined with Super Saiyan to make something completely new and unique. It's one of the small handful of awesome concepts from GT that really stand out.

[Kaboom]

I made a post but it isn't showing up anywhere but the "Topic review" on the new post screen. Weird. I'll quote myself.

The only time Super Saiyan went to far was in GT, but that's GT for you.

Actually, I'd say GT pulled it off better than either Cell OR Boo. Instead of being just another step on the golden-haired ladder, Oozaru was brought back into the mix and combined with Super Saiyan to make something completely new and unique. It's one of the small handful of awesome concepts from GT that really stand out.

[Xyex]

I don't mind the extra Super Saiya-jins. SSJ was only so legendary because of how hard it is to get to. Nothing says that only one person can have it at a time. It's just rare, and so legend says only one gets it. But everyone's got the potential. SSJ2 was built up to from the moment Vegeta got his butt kicked by 18. SSJ3 was something new in that it wasn't obtained while fighting the final villain, wasn't the key to winning, and in fact was soon outclassed by the enemy.

Though, I've always thought it would have been interesting if SSJ was a temporary thing. Goku got it on Namek, beat Freeza, then changed back and that was it. He couldn't switch at will. Gohan might have gotten it to finish off Cell, and Vegetto may have gotten it the instant he was created, but that would have been the extent of SSJ in the series.

[Son_Gohan]

If he stopped at just SSJ1, so would the story. Since naturally the villains would only become stronger as it went on; succeeding transformations were only added to necessitate the plot, for convenience. Once Toriyama exhausted the idea of how they could attain great power fast through natural means, he resorted to "supernatural" (rituals, fusions).

[Gozar]

I personally like the addition of further forms. Let's be fair here, the only reason that there wasn't a whole race of Super Saiya-jin's was because they didn't have the means to become powerful enough. The people who eventually become Super Saiya-jin's did. To be honest, I don't think that SSJ is all that great of an achievement. I think many Saiya-jin could have potentially obtained it if they had Gravity Machines and magical beans and Namekian's to revive you from near death.

I like how the story progressed and how the forms progressed as the characters grew. I never found the Z-Era to be redundant like so many people claim. I think each and every Era had something to make it very unique.

[Terra-jin]

Interesting topic... Dragonball is just such a long-running saga that they quickly used up the entire spectrum of strength. You need new villains to be way stronger, not just a bit or they don't qualify as a "big bad". Because of its length, Dragonball had too great a number of "new" villains and hence the leaps of strength went beyond some boundaries (by the artificial human saga, each major player was stronger than the strongest being in the entire Universe). In the same vein, characters were able to destroy planets way too early on (though debatable, we see Roshi blowing up the moon all the way back in the 22nd tournament saga :S).

In short, you'd have to reverse-engineer the series in such a way that the ability to destroy planets and Freeza came last. However, the series is just too rich for all the characters and stories to fit within that scope of strength-levels.

Overall, I think Toriyama handled it very well. All that goes beyond Freeza's power has an explanation for doing so... except maybe the cyborgs. Buu has been collecting energy for millions of years, Cell is composed of the strongest fighters in the Universe...

What he might have done to avoid ridiculous strength-levels is to introduce different ways a villain could be a threat than just strength. Imagine a "new" villain that isn't very strong per se, but has some other menacing ability, characteristic that forces our heroes to find different ways to defeat him than through raw strength alone. Sure, there's Babidi and his magic and Cell and Buu's regeneration, but it ultimately came down to strength again.

[Blue]

I personally like the addition of further forms. Let's be fair here, the only reason that there wasn't a whole race of Super Saiya-jin's was because they didn't have the means to become powerful enough. The people who eventually become Super Saiya-jin's did. To be honest, I don't think that SSJ is all that great of an achievement. I think many Saiya-jin could have potentially obtained it if they had Gravity Machines and magical beans and Namekian's to revive you from near death.

That's my issue with the Cell and Boo arcs. There is 0 reason to believe this outside of those sagas. It wasn't about being "strong" it was about being the chosen one. There was a huge sense of irony that the one man to become the ultimate Saiyan warrior was the furthest removed from his race that he could possibly be. The prince of the race was certain it was him but it ended up being passed down to some hick that lived on a backwater planet. There's also something to be said for the fact that it was Goku's deep sense of camaraderie with Kuririn that pushed him over the edge. Vegeta had no loved ones, he had 0 issues with killing his partner from ever since he was a small child. It wasn't about "PUMP WEIGHTS BECOME SUPER SAIYAN" it was a legend.

Let's face it, Super Saiyan became what it is because Toriyama wrote himself into a corner.

[Godo]

My opinion regarding the Super Saiya-jin is that it was overused.
Sure, a mere 5 Saiya-jins achieved it, but we are still speaking about all the remaining Saiya-jins.
In my mind, the Super Saiya-jin would fit best as a Goku exclusive transformation, with the "every 1000 years" line being kept true.
And he wouldn't be able to reach it at will, but in very dire situations. Many other manga have used this type of transformation, and they were successful.

Also, I could go with only full bloods being able to transform, since hybrids have enormous power growth anyways.

And about the SSJ2, I think that it should be Gohan exclusive, as a manifestation of his enormous dormant power.

Then we get Buu saga, everyone but Goten and Trunks are SSJ2, and without much humility, Goku is shown to have reached SSJ3. Come. On.

[The Tori-bot]

In all seriousness, Kaboom hit the nail on the head. Only two of the six(including Future Trunks) Saiyans had the Super Saiyan form "handed" to them while everyone else worked their ass off for it.

Discounting the anime and taking only from what's in the manga, here's how hard everyone except Goku "worked their ass off" for it.

Vegeta: Trained until he gave up. BAM, Super Saiyan.
Future Trunks: Can just do it.
Gohan: Can just do it.
Trunks: Can just do it.
Goten: Can just do it.

How is that working their asses off? Aside from Vegeta, we don't even know how any of them achieved it in the first place.

[rereboy]

In all seriousness, Kaboom hit the nail on the head. Only two of the six(including Future Trunks) Saiyans had the Super Saiyan form "handed" to them while everyone else worked their ass off for it.

Discounting the anime and taking only from what's in the manga, here's how hard everyone except Goku "worked their ass off" for it.

Vegeta: Trained until he gave up. BAM, Super Saiyan.
Future Trunks: Can just do it.
Gohan: Can just do it.
Trunks: Can just do it.
Goten: Can just do it.

How is that working their asses off? Aside from Vegeta, we don't even know how any of them achieved it in the first place.

That is exactly why some of us believe that the reason why Trunks and Goten are able to become SSJ so easily is because, when they were conceived, their fathers had already unlocked the SSJ.

That, and the fact that they have human mothers, is the most probable in universe explanation for why they can turn SSJ so easily since Human-Sayan hybrids are supposed to be exceptionally strong (Gohan). Is not a stretch to think that a Human-SSJ hybrid would be exceptionally strong and be able to turn SSJ rather easily.

And Gohan can`t just do it. He had to train hard to get it, as did Vegeta. And Vegeta had to discover the secret for himself, the anger. Gohan knew because Goku just told him.

Trunks and Goten are the only ones who can just do it like it was nothing.

[TheGreatness25]

While I agree that everyone becoming Super Saiyan is going far, I do know why it's done. Escalation. The series would really suffer if villains started showing up which are more powerful than Freeza and the ONLY one who could even come close to measuring up was Goku because he's a Super Saiyan while everyone else is stuck doing nothing. It would make zero sense to have someone like Vegeta train so hard where he's anywhere near Goku's ball park in strength while being base form.

[pjay]

I liked the design of Super Saiyan 3 Goku. I always thought it looked bad-ass personally.

[Blue]

While I agree that everyone becoming Super Saiyan is going far, I do know why it's done. Escalation. The series would really suffer if villains started showing up which are more powerful than Freeza and the ONLY one who could even come close to measuring up was Goku because he's a Super Saiyan while everyone else is stuck doing nothing.

I agree, it's points like this Toriyama's "I'll just make stuff up as I go along" writing style is extremely evident. Doing stuff like this is an absolute rookie mistake. I'm not a comic expert but I suspect this is also why Superman got retooled later on to be more reasonable with his powers. When you make your main character literally the best at everything ever you better be ending your series.

[The Time Traveller]

Speaking of Super Saiyans, what would Nappa look like if he went Super Saiyan?

Probably like this:

For some reason the bald characters on Dragon Ball Online get a mohawk, would that apply to Nappa...

Incidentally, this is what he would look like as a Super Saiyan 3.

[pjay]

While I agree that everyone becoming Super Saiyan is going far, I do know why it's done. Escalation. The series would really suffer if villains started showing up which are more powerful than Freeza and the ONLY one who could even come close to measuring up was Goku because he's a Super Saiyan while everyone else is stuck doing nothing.

I agree, it's points like this Toriyama's "I'll just make stuff up as I go along" writing style is extremely evident. Doing stuff like this is an absolute rookie mistake. I'm not a comic expert but I suspect this is also why Superman got retooled later on to be more reasonable with his powers. When you make your main character literally the best at everything ever you better be ending your series.

Well Superman getting rebooted in John Byrne's 1986 The Man of Steel after Crisis on Infinite Earths, was also about getting rid of all the garbage that had accumulated in his past stories (i.e Super-Pets, Kandor, Zod, various other kryptonian, etc.) and basically take Superman back to the beginning to start over.

[Xyex]

That's my issue with the Cell and Boo arcs. There is 0 reason to believe this outside of those sagas. It wasn't about being "strong" it was about being the chosen one. There was a huge sense of irony that the one man to become the ultimate Saiyan warrior was the furthest removed from his race that he could possibly be. The prince of the race was certain it was him but it ended up being passed down to some hick that lived on a backwater planet. There's also something to be said for the fact that it was Goku's deep sense of camaraderie with Kuririn that pushed him over the edge. Vegeta had no loved ones, he had 0 issues with killing his partner from ever since he was a small child. It wasn't about "PUMP WEIGHTS BECOME SUPER SAIYAN" it was a legend.

Let's face it, Super Saiyan became what it is because Toriyama wrote himself into a corner.

Super Saiya-jin was always what it was in the latter arcs. The only one who kept going on and on about the whole 'one Saiya-jin' and 'once in a thousand years' thing was Vegeta. And Vegeta was talking out of his ass about something that had happened so long ago it was now only legend. He didn't know what Super Saiya-jin was, or how to reach it, as highlighted by his thinking Goku was the Super Saiya-jin twice before he actually transformed.

It was never about being any sort of 'chosen one.' Super Saiya-jin was always something available to all, but hard to reach because of the requirements and Saiya-jin life style. This hard to reach nature limited the number of people who achieved it, thus making it seem that way. Goku and Vegeta would have never gotten there themselves had it not been for Senzu Beans, Freeza needing Vegeta alive to find the Namekian Dragonballs, and, well, the Dragonballs. Both of them were killed before they ever go to SSJ.

As for the part I bolded, that still holds true through the entire series. Both in Goku and Gohan. Neither of them is anything like the Saiya-jins of Planet Vegeta and they're both well beyond the power of any other Saiya-jin, including Vegeta.

And if anyone is the "Legendary Super Saiya-jin" it would be Gohan.

In all seriousness, Kaboom hit the nail on the head. Only two of the six(including Future Trunks) Saiyans had the Super Saiyan form "handed" to them while everyone else worked their ass off for it.

Discounting the anime and taking only from what's in the manga, here's how hard everyone except Goku "worked their ass off" for it.

Vegeta: Trained until he gave up. BAM, Super Saiyan.
Future Trunks: Can just do it.
Gohan: Can just do it.
Trunks: Can just do it.
Goten: Can just do it.

How is that working their asses off? Aside from Vegeta, we don't even know how any of them achieved it in the first place.

Vegeta didn't 'give up.' He became absurdly pissed off at himself. Going with the manga, we don't know what or how Future Trunks got SSJ. But Gohan certainly couldn't 'just do it' in either timeline. In the future, it was the end result of all of his friends being killed. In the manga timeline it was the end result of Goku training his ass off in the RoSaT (which came after 3 years hard training with Goku and Piccolo, a few weeks on Namek dealing with the threat of Freeza and his empire, going toe-to-toe with a muscle bound tank that no one but Goku could even hurt, and training a year with Piccolo).

[LilKokuLink]

I like how the story progressed and how the forms progressed as the characters grew. I never found the Z-Era to be redundant like so many people claim. I think each and every Era had something to make it very unique.

But isn't the sole reason to why all the non-Saiya-jin characters became useless in combat in the later sagas because of the Super Saiya-jin progression?

[Blue]

That's my issue with the Cell and Boo arcs. There is 0 reason to believe this outside of those sagas. It wasn't about being "strong" it was about being the chosen one. There was a huge sense of irony that the one man to become the ultimate Saiyan warrior was the furthest removed from his race that he could possibly be. The prince of the race was certain it was him but it ended up being passed down to some hick that lived on a backwater planet. There's also something to be said for the fact that it was Goku's deep sense of camaraderie with Kuririn that pushed him over the edge. Vegeta had no loved ones, he had 0 issues with killing his partner from ever since he was a small child. It wasn't about "PUMP WEIGHTS BECOME SUPER SAIYAN" it was a legend.

Let's face it, Super Saiyan became what it is because Toriyama wrote himself into a corner.

Super Saiya-jin was always what it was in the latter arcs. The only one who kept going on and on about the whole 'one Saiya-jin' and 'once in a thousand years' thing was Vegeta. And Vegeta was talking out of his ass about something that had happened so long ago it was now only legend. He didn't know what Super Saiya-jin was, or how to reach it, as highlighted by his thinking Goku was the Super Saiya-jin twice before he actually transformed.

It was never about being any sort of 'chosen one.' Super Saiya-jin was always something available to all, but hard to reach because of the requirements and Saiya-jin life style. This hard to reach nature limited the number of people who achieved it, thus making it seem that way. Goku and Vegeta would have never gotten there themselves had it not been for Senzu Beans, Freeza needing Vegeta alive to find the Namekian Dragonballs, and, well, the Dragonballs. Both of them were killed before they ever go to SSJ.

As for the part I bolded, that still holds true through the entire series. Both in Goku and Gohan. Neither of them is anything like the Saiya-jins of Planet Vegeta and they're both well beyond the power of any other Saiya-jin, including Vegeta.

And if anyone is the "Legendary Super Saiya-jin" it would be Gohan.

Yeah you're right the other pure blooded Saiyans that lived on Planet Vegeta in the story would have talked about it mo-oh yeah that's right there were 3 and 2 died before the legend was even appropriate to talk about in the current situation. Vegeta,Ginyu and Freeza all brought it up. They all basically told the same legend.

As for the Super Saiyan story being just a legend I'd be inclined to agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that myths and legends are pretty much always how they're described in the Dragon World verbatim. Korin's Tower and the Dragon Balls come to mind. He (and this could mean Vegeta or Toriyama) didn't know Goku would undergo a physical transformation which is why he thought he had transformed already. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Doing push ups and drinking plenty of juice to go SSJ was an invention of the Cell and Boo arcs so fuck that shit. It was about being a chosen warrior once every x amount of years. This is how it was described by the last pure blooded Saiyan who had actually lived on the planet and it would have stayed that way if Toriyama didn't need everyone to go SSJ in order to keep up.

Gohan's an entire other rant.

[penguintruth]

Doing push ups and drinking plenty of juice to go SSJ was an invention of the Cell and Boo arcs so fuck that shit. It was about being a chosen warrior once every x amount of years.

But maybe the reason why there weren't any Super Saiyans was because no Saiyan had ever worked quite hard enough to achieve that goal.

I mean, the legend itself is pretty murky.

[Blue]

Well in that case we're going into the meta of the story and any assumption could be right. It would be guess work. I know I keep floundering around between defending the in universe reasoning and berating Toriyama's writing which makes it hard to grasp what I'm saying.

The point I'm trying to get across is it's pretty clear what Super Saiyan was supposed to be when Toriyama was writing for it in the Freeza arc. I liked the old concept infinitely better. I think it was more original and the following appearances of the Super Saiyan form were ridiculous and didn't follow suit with what we had just seen. Literally 2 characters just did it with minimal explanation during their first entry into the Android arc. That's what "Super Saiyan" had become.