Who is Stronger Questions

[hleV]

Super Buu indeed seems stronger than Kid Buu. But by how much?

x = Kid Buu's power.
y = Kaioshins' (Southern and Dai) power.

Kid Buu = x.
Fat Buu = x - y.
Super Buu = x + y.

So, Super Buu, at most, can only be stronger than Kid Buu by a sum of Southern and Dai Kaioshins' power.

[Kaboom]

A wise man once said, "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

[Savage68]

No, I haven't changed my mind. But I WOULD if I was satisfied with the answers. I just can't take what I've read as FACT. I have opened up loop holes for each argument and I'm still not getting anything to really shut any of that down. All I'm getting is: This is fact because I say so.
I don't mean that as a slight, it's just how I am perceiving the responses.

It still just sounds like a lot of interpretations to me and/or personal opinions.

Look at the argument from my side and tell me you wouldn't feel the same.

Yeah, I know how you feel.

But as always, more people have seen the anime (Funi version) while few have read the canon manga from start to finish which only adds more room for argument. Most people, I would wager, are basing this argument on the anime and on the anime they have seen. To call bulls*** on that is fine too, but many of us have accepted this alternate version as a version we prefer, thus most posters could probably care less whether or not something is canon or not.

Do you think fans of Broly care about canon and what's not canon? Probably not. The truth is, people will like what they want, regardless of how "correct" it is. (Thus, the initial argument seems broken from the start) Don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with you and technically you are right. The only problem is, people don't seem to care about technicalities, they only seem to care about defending the version they have seen.

The version I have seen: Kid Buu was the strongest and I like the story that way. (Regardless of it being the original version) The fact that it was even told differently should be enough that both stories and opinions can be respected. You won't view it that way, I'm sure, but to each his own.

So in the end, Super Buu gets to be the strongest in the version YOU like, and Kid Buu gets to be the strongest in mine. Canon or not. Doesn't matter to me since again: both versions EXIST. No matter what we do or say, this topic will never get resolved. The reason? Different versions of the story exist. We have manga, we have anime, and there are several different interpretations of both.

In the Funimation version, BOTH absorbed Kais weakened Kid Buu. In a different version, people say otherwise. I only know what I saw and what the Kais explained which was in plain English: Kid Buu was the strongest Buu of all. And in this SAME version, Goku goes on to say that this Buu is the toughest opponent he has ever faced. So, even though I have solid evidence to support my case, the opposition has just as much credibility because the evidence they need is also within what they saw or read.

Verdict: Let this topic die since there can and never will be a clear cut winner. (Since it all boils down to what story was told or shown to you)

It just doesn't seem like anything will be good enough for you, no matter how decisive it is.

[Questrider]

No, I haven't changed my mind. But I WOULD if I was satisfied with the answers. I just can't take what I've read as FACT. I have opened up loop holes for each argument and I'm still not getting anything to really shut any of that down. All I'm getting is: This is fact because I say so.
I don't mean that as a slight, it's just how I am perceiving the responses.

It still just sounds like a lot of interpretations to me and/or personal opinions.

Look at the argument from my side and tell me you wouldn't feel the same.

Yeah, I know how you feel.

But as always, more people have seen the anime (Funi version) while few have read the canon manga from start to finish which only adds more room for argument. Most people, I would wager, are basing this argument on the anime and on the anime they have seen. To call bulls*** on that is fine too, but many of us have accepted this alternate version as a version we prefer, thus most posters could probably care less whether or not something is canon or not.

Do you think fans of Broly care about canon and what's not canon? Probably not. The truth is, people will like what they want, regardless of how "correct" it is. (Thus, the initial argument seems broken from the start) Don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with you and technically you are right. The only problem is, people don't seem to care about technicalities, they only seem to care about defending the version they have seen.

The version I have seen: Kid Buu was the strongest and I like the story that way. (Regardless of it being the original version) The fact that it was even told differently should be enough that both stories and opinions can be respected. You won't view it that way, I'm sure, but to each his own.

So in the end, Super Buu gets to be the strongest in the version YOU like, and Kid Buu gets to be the strongest in mine. Canon or not. Doesn't matter to me since again: both versions EXIST. No matter what we do or say, this topic will never get resolved. The reason? Different versions of the story exist. We have manga, we have anime, and there are several different interpretations of both.

In the Funimation version, BOTH absorbed Kais weakened Kid Buu. In a different version, people say otherwise. I only know what I saw and what the Kais explained which was in plain English: Kid Buu was the strongest Buu of all. And in this SAME version, Goku goes on to say that this Buu is the toughest opponent he has ever faced. So, even though I have solid evidence to support my case, the opposition has just as much credibility because the evidence they need is also within what they saw or read.

Verdict: Let this topic die since there can and never will be a clear cut winner. (Since it all boils down to what story was told or shown to you)

It just doesn't seem like anything will be good enough for you, no matter how decisive it is.

Ah, but that's why I came here to ASK the experts and hopefully answer these questions once and for all. (When I originally brought up this original post, I had no idea Daizenshuu existed.) You have to remember we were having this discussion on Gamefaqs, and while I like that site, the posters there are NOT as knowledgable as the people here.
Surely we can agree on that.

[Savage68]

Ah, but that's why I came here to ASK the experts and hopefully answer these questions once and for all. (When I originally brought up this original post, I had no idea Daizenshuu existed.) You have to remember we were having this discussion on Gamefaqs, and while I like that site, the posters there are NOT as knowledgable as the people here.
Surely we can agree on that.

You were posting on a video game board. Those guys have always been idiots, for the most part. >_>

[Questrider]

Ah, but that's why I came here to ASK the experts and hopefully answer these questions once and for all. (When I originally brought up this original post, I had no idea Daizenshuu existed.) You have to remember we were having this discussion on Gamefaqs, and while I like that site, the posters there are NOT as knowledgable as the people here.
Surely we can agree on that.

You were posting on a video game board. Those guys have always been idiots, for the most part. >_>

I wouldn't go as far to call them idiots, lol.
How about we settle with misinformed??

[goku the krump dancer]

Someone on another site said something along the lines of, "If Gohan was the strongest good guy they why wasnt his chi enough to kill Kid Boo with the Genki Dama?"

[Godo]

It still just sounds like a lot of interpretations to me and/or personal opinions.

Look at the argument from my side and tell me you wouldn't feel the same.

I said it before:

1) Goku stated that even together with Vegeta, he couldn't defeat Super Buu. And this was when everybody already knew that he could use SSJ3. "This Buu is too strong for us to handle, Vegeta!" - Goku
"This is horrible! A new Buu, this time much stronger and evil! This looks bad!" - Piccolo

2) Gotenks and Gohan were much, much stronger than Goku, not just by a fraction. If that were the case, Goku and Rou (old) Kaioshin wouldn't even bother teaching Goten and Trunks the fusion, and unlock Gohan's powers.
"The Metamorphorians themselves were a weak race, but with fusion they created really strong warriors" - Goku
Gotenks goes SSJ against Super Buu: "Wow, he can actually do it!" - Piccolo (Indicating that his SSJ power was in the leauge of another strong power he had felt not a long time before...otherwise Piccolo was overreacting.)

3) Gohan pummeled this Super Buu, who according to Piccolo's senses was much stronger than Fat Buu, the guy that SSJ3 Goku fought (and he claimed that he maybe couldn't win). Thus, Super Buu is stronger.
"This is horrible! A new Buu, this time much stronger and evil! This looks bad!" - Piccolo
"Could I have defeated Buu? Maybe..." - Goku after fighting Fat Buu
"He can defeat him!" - Piccolo on Gohan vs. Super Buu

4) Goku and Vegeta thought that they could defeat Kid Buu, and they were right. At least if Goku's power didn't drop. And they soon found out that the biggest problem was that Kid Buu was a rage machine with no reasoning in his bubblegum brain at all. "He looks smaller" - Vegeta
"We can take him" - Goku
"If I charge up my power to the max, I can defeat him! Can you hold him for 2 minutes, Vegeta?" - Goku
"Oh, no, I didn't expect this! My power is dropping!" - Goku

These aren't exact quotations (I haven't got my manga with me), but they are proof enough of my points, and in no way interpretations. Well, unless you want Kid Buu to be stronger and disregard my points as "interpretations".

Someone on another site said something along the lines of, "If Gohan was the strongest good guy they why wasnt his chi enough to kill Kid Boo with the Genki Dama?"

Because an equal power doesn't kill Buu, something Vegeta and Gotenks showed. To destroy the very atoms of Buu the force to kill him needs to be tens of times stronger than him (eg. Vegetto).

[Dayspring]

Side-question: was Kid Boo weaker than (meaning Kid+South and Dai Kaioshins)? Goku tells Piccolo he wouldn't have been able to defeat Fat Boo, but later tells Vegeta he could have. Does this imply they're in the same league, with Fat being a bit stronger, or what?

[Savage68]

Someone on another site said something along the lines of, "If Gohan was the strongest good guy they why wasnt his chi enough to kill Kid Boo with the Genki Dama?"

This is an argument that makes absolutely no sense, since the Genki Dama obliterated Kid Buu, even overpowering his regeneration. A weaker amount of power wouldn't have been capable of doing that much damage. And when we look at Gohan and the rest of the Z-Fighters on the Lookout, they aren't even tired after having their genki donated. It couldn't have taken the majority of their power. The only reason why Kid stopped the GD in it's tracks was because it no longer had any momentum. It was basically a big mass of power up for grabs.

Side-question: was Kid Boo weaker than (meaning Kid+South and Dai Kaioshins)? Goku tells Piccolo he wouldn't have been able to defeat Fat Boo, but later tells Vegeta he could have. Does this imply they're in the same league, with Fat being a bit stronger, or what?

Goku was obviously lying when he told Piccolo that he was incapable of killing the Fat Buu. Piccolo didn't suspect it for no good reason; He had to have sensed that Goku's ki was stronger than Majin Buu's. Goku deflected it because he wanted to let the kids save the day. If Fat Buu was stronger than Kid, Goku wouldn't have been fighting equally with the latter. Kid Buu even created a ki blast that was too powerful for SSJ3 Goku to match with another ki blast. Fat Buu's most powerful ki attack was batted away by SSJ3 Goku.

Goku was able to kill Fat and Kid Buu. He just had more trouble with Kid Buu, because he was the stronger one. And his SSJ3 pretty much crapped out on him in his living body.

[Bussani]

I have opened up loop holes for each argument and I'm still not getting anything to really shut any of that down.

They seem more like large stretches that conveniently ignore other pieces of evidence than "loop holes" to me. But like I said in my original post, all of this is assumption.

I just can't take what I've read as FACT.

Okay, but...what do you want exactly? This really is all we have to offer you. You can come to your own conclusions from it, but if you're looking for a line from a guide book that says, "Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu," then you're out of luck, because it doesn't exist.

[Dayspring]

Goku was obviously lying when he told Piccolo that he was incapable of killing the Fat Buu. Piccolo didn't suspect it for no good reason; He had to have sensed that Goku's ki was stronger than Majin Buu's. Goku deflected it because he wanted to let the kids save the day. If Fat Buu was stronger than Kid, Goku wouldn't have been fighting equally with the latter. Kid Buu even created a ki blast that was too powerful for SSJ3 Goku to match with another ki blast. Fat Buu's most powerful ki attack was batted away by SSJ3 Goku.

Goku was able to kill Fat and Kid Buu. He just had more trouble with Kid Buu, because he was the stronger one. And his SSJ3 pretty much crapped out on him in his living body.

Okay, but why bother lying to Piccolo? He could have told him the truth and Piccolo would have understood. Hell, maybe even agreed.

[hleV]

Okay, but why bother lying to Piccolo? He could have told him the truth and Piccolo would have understood. Hell, maybe even agreed.

Goku decided to keep it as secret. From Piccolo too. I don't see anything wrong/strange in it.

[Kaboom]

He also didn't want people to have to depend on him. Goten and Trunks wouldn't try as hard if they knew, "oh, Goku can beat him if we can't happen to."

[Rory]

I just can't take what I've read as FACT.

Okay, but...what do you want exactly? This really is all we have to offer you. You can come to your own conclusions from it, but if you're looking for a line from a guide book that says, "Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu," then you're out of luck, because it doesn't exist.

This is what was going through my mind whilst reading this entire thread.
Reading the manga + common sense = your answer

[Rocketman]

Goten and Trunks wouldn't try as hard if they knew, "oh, Goku can beat him if we can't happen to."

They tried at all?

[Rory]

Goten and Trunks wouldn't try as hard if they knew, "oh, Goku can beat him if we can't happen to."

They tried at all?

They tried, but they also fucked around a lot.
A reason Gotenks actually annoys the fuck out of me.

[rereboy]

That`s also the reason why Toriyama loved that fight so much.

[Rory]

That`s also the reason why Toriyama loved that fight so much.

Thing is, I enjoy the hell out of Dragon Ball chapters 1-10, seriously I do. I laugh out loud to some of the moments, because Toriyama intentionally wrote it to be a gag manga and succeeded in doing so. From then on, he made a smooth transition to the more traditional Shounen style manga which worked even better in my honest opinion, and has (again, in my opinion) made the series a massive worldwide hit.
The Boo arc however, was a clumsy mess. You can just see Toriyama's boredom with the franchise oozing out of the pages, and especially the writing. Gotenks vs Super Boo is a prime example of this. This is the monster who killed both Goten and Trunks' mothers without any hesitation (hell, he probably enjoyed it), yet they're spending their time making up cheesy attacks? Even children don't act like this, they'd be pissed and would be out for blood. They aren't acting like people and it just adds to the problems the Boo arc has.

[Dayspring]

That`s also the reason why Toriyama loved that fight so much.

Thing is, I enjoy the hell out of Dragon Ball chapters 1-10, seriously I do. I laugh out loud to some of the moments, because Toriyama intentionally wrote it to be a gag manga and succeeded in doing so. From then on, he made a smooth transition to the more traditional Shounen style manga which worked even better in my honest opinion, and has (again, in my opinion) made the series a massive worldwide hit.
The Boo arc however, was a clumsy mess. You can just see Toriyama's boredom with the franchise oozing out of the pages, and especially the writing. Gotenks vs Super Boo is a prime example of this. This is the monster who killed both Goten and Trunks' mothers without any hesitation (hell, he probably enjoyed it), yet they're spending their time making up cheesy attacks? Even children don't act like this, they'd be pissed and would be out for blood. They aren't acting like people and it just adds to the problems the Boo arc has.

It wasn't very transitional. The reader was hit over the head almost literally with a hammer when the Piccolo Daimao arc started. From fun shonen to one core character after another very suddenly being killed by a ruthless demon. There wasn't much fun in that arc at all; it was about "here's hoping Goku can save the day!" And he almost doesn't make it without having the shit beaten out of him a torturous way. TWICE.

The Saiyan-Freeza arcs had the same shock value: a sudden monstrous being shows up, dominates the fight and gets Goku killed. Core character after core character gets killed off by another monstrous being, here's hoping Goku can save the day! The only transition was from Freeza to the androids/Cell. Piccolo Daimao had a transition, but it was a reversion to the classic, fun tournaments we'd already seen twice. Even Ma Junior Piccolo wasn't all that bad compared to Daimao, even when he tortured Goku.

Boo really was just classic DB. It seems out of place because it followed like 5 years of Toriyama's darkest works ever, on top of the gag-manga aspects kind of being removed from those darker periods in the story.


Back on-topic: I get why Goku didn't want Goten and Trunks to know he could win against Boo, but I still don't see why the need to lie to Piccolo was there.