Can Vegeta go SSJ2?

[MR.Mark]

The line by Yamcha, the guy who wouldn't know how strong Tenshinhan was after 7 years or so?

The fact that, ya know, Yamucha is not a real person? Really what other in story reason would Toriyama put that line into Yamucha's mouth, to troll fans? What's with the hard on some fans have over Kuririn being the strongest human, is it beacuse Tenshinhan looks more "badass"?

[Savage68]

.....

If that's really your position, you're seeking to demean your opposition. Instead of refuting it.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

The line by Yamcha, the guy who wouldn't know how strong Tenshinhan was after 7 years or so?

The fact that, ya know, Yamucha is not a real person? Really what other in story reason would Toriyama put that line into Yamucha's mouth, to troll fans? What's with the hard on some fans have over Kuririn being the strongest human, is it beacuse Tenshinhan looks more "badass"?

Agreed. The creator has said that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan. End of story.

[MR.Mark]

.....

If that's really your position, you're seeking to demean your opposition. Instead of refuting it.

Nice rebuttal, so you're suggesting Toriyama's intention of that line was to show that Yamucha was a confused individual? Because that makes absolutely no sense in the story whatsoever and is just a waste of a panel.

[Cipher]

On the Yamcha line:

We're talking about an author who can't remember which characters he's created and which he hasn't. Looking for any kind of misleading subtext, especially in an expository line like that, is overshooting to a hilarious degree.

That said, I slightly question whether or not Tenshinhan is always squarely designated "human."

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Savage doesn't have a "hard-on" for Tien or anything.

The line really is debatable. The fact that he's going over this with Marron of all people also doesn't help.

And the fact that the Daiz states Tien continued to train while Krillin clearly retired after the Cell Games either means A) Krillin had a huge lead on him back during the Android saga to make Yamcha's statement true, which doesn't seem likely, or B) Krillin, with his month of training, surpassed Tien from the Cell Games (The last time Yamcha sensed him. Heck, even Gohan couldn't find Tien) in order to solidify Yamcha's statement.

I don't usually like to enter this debate, but stuff like that are why people are doubtful on it. Tien showing up and actually doing something in the Boo saga actually helps strengthen the side of those who believe he's stronger.

[MR.Mark]

The fact that he's going over this with Marron of all people also doesn't help.

Actually, Yamucha tells Marron her dad is the strongest in the world, then to himself he adds "well,amongst humans" or however the line went, so...?

Yamucha was mumbling a lie to himself? I fail to see what sense that makes.

BTW, the "Toriyama is forgetful loz" is a lame cop out argument so don't bother with that.

Savage doesn't have a "hard-on" for Tenshinhan or anything.

I never said he did, I said Tenshinhan fans have a hard-on for Kurirn because they can't accept the idea of the little guy being stronger than the "3-eyed cowboy".

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The focus was on the tournament, not Tien. He was long gone and they planned to never see him again (Krillin even mentions this). Considering Yamcha's dumb look with the "among humans" part, it's likely that he was clearing up the statement to an extent, since he wasn't better than the Saiyans or Piccolo, who are apart of the world.

There's just plenty more indicating Tien is better. He kept training, Krillin didn't. Statements are key, but when actions show otherwise, well, yeah.

[Savage68]

Nice rebuttal, so you're suggesting Toriyama's intention of that line was to show that Yamucha was a confused individual? Because that makes absolutely no sense in the story whatsoever and is just a waste of a panel.

That's the way it has to be, then. Yamcha didn't know how strong Tenshinhan was, and that's a fact. Krillin stopped training over the timeskip while Ten continued to train. So, at the very least, Krillin grew weaker while Tenshinhan didn't lose any strength (though there's no reason why Ten wouldn't have grown stronger).

"...Toriyama made his character state A, so it's true..." is about as narrow as reasoning can come. #17 thought that he was the strongest person in the world; Kaioshin was afraid of beings that were much weaker than he was; Gotenks believed that he would be able to kill Buu. And they were all wrong, because they lacked the knowledge necessary to make those beliefs definitive and accurate.

I know you're not about to tell me that a character's statement is true just because...they said so.

[MR.Mark]

Well Tenshinhan also got his ass killed and never went to Namek to receive a dormant power up from the Namek elder.

Plus we must factor in Kurirn's sparing partner, #18, who along with #17, are the REAL strongest humans if we must be so anal about it. Though I technically don't count them since there power is artificial, unlike Kurirn and Ten who train and whatnot.

Who does Tenshinhan have to spar with, a worthless little shit that probably made Ten weaker over the years.

So now the argument is Yamucha looked confused/dumb when saying the line, seriously? Yamucha can sense ki too you know.

I know you're not about to tell me that a character's statement is true just because...they said so.

Can you please explain the purpose of the line then? Did Yamucha under estimate Tenshinhan, who later shows up to kick Majin Buu's ass?

[Savage68]

Plus we must factor in Kurirn sparing partner, #18, who along with #17, are the REAL strongest humans if we most be so anal about it.

How, exactly, does this make Krillin stronger than Tenshinhan? Sparring with #18 is supposed to yield some kind of correlation to a massive, unprecedented increase in power for Krillin? I dunno, but if I hear about Chaozu sparring (getting back into shape...) with Vegetto, I'm not making anything major of it.

[MR.Mark]

Sparring with #18 is supposed to yield some kind of correlation to a massive, unprecedented increase in power for Krillin?

Other than the fact that #18 could annihilate Tenshinhan with her left titty.

once again I ask:


Can you please explain the purpose of the line then? Did Yamucha under estimate Tenshinhan, who later shows up to kick Majin Buu's ass?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He spared with her for a month. And #18 would crush Krillin just as easily, so I don't see how this is a knock on Tien.

And yeah, Tien never went to namek, but Krillin never trained with Kaio for 200+ days or however long it was. Those factors even each other out.

The point of the line? To partially cheer Marron up, while reemphasizing that he's not better than any special being. Stronger than Tien who's out of the picture? Don't think so. And there are plenty of lines you could do this for; IE: Kaioshin "never imagining they were this powerful!" after seeing Vegeta obliterate Pui-Pui, even though he saw Super Saiyan 2 Gohan already. What the heck does that line mean? Base Vegeta>Super Saiyan 2 Gohan? No.

That's why there doesn't always have to be some big picture effect when it comes to certain lines--especially when the context is considered.

[MR.Mark]

He spared with her for a month. And #18 would crush Krillin just as easily, so I don't see how this is a knock on Tenshinhan.

If we want to pretend reality keeps existing beyond what we read in the manga, there's no way to argue that #18 and Kuririn didn't spar on and off during those 7 years. I just go by what we're told in the story, by Toriyama, through Yamucha. Fan theories can be fun, but I have my limits.

And yeah, Tenshinhan never went to namek, but Krillin never trained with Kaio for 200+ days or however long it was. Those factors even each other out.

Tenshinhan never used Kaio-ken either, nor did he seem to benefit from the training whatsoever.

Kaioshin "never imagining they were this powerful!" after seeing Vegeta obliterate Pui-Pui, even though he saw Super Saiyan 2 Gohan already. What the heck does that line mean? Base Vegeta>Super Saiyan 2 Gohan? No.

No, it means Kaioshin is an ignorant retard, that's a poor example. Yamucha Kuririn and Ten saw each other on and off throughout most of there lives and could sense each others power fairly well.

[Rocketman]

What is the difference between Super Saiyan 1 and 2? I can't tell them apart just by looking.

In the anime, basically nothing past Cell Games Gohan's massive hair change. In the manga, SS2 always has lightning in its aura.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

If we want to pretend reality keeps existing beyond what we read in the manga, there's no way to argue that #18 and Kuririn didn't spar on and off during those 7 years. I just go by what we're told in the story, by Toriyama, through Yamucha. Fan theories can be fun, but I have my limits.

It doesn't. But we do know Krillin retired from fighting while Tien continued to train.

Personally, I don't care who's stronger, since both don't matter in the grand scheme of things. But at least Tien actually makes himself useful in the Cell/Boo saga to some extent. Krillin does nothing but get spit on or told to take someone home. He actually makes himself useful by destroying remotes and stuff.

Tenshinhan never used Kaio-ken either, nor did he seem to benefit from the training whatsoever.

Except receive harder training than Goku did, which has to count for something. And considering Piccolo grew powerful enough to snatch Nail's attention in a mere six days, 200+ would be very beneficial. We don't know what he gained from Kaio's training, but to say he gained nothing isn't nice.

No, it means Kaioshin is an ignorant retard, that's a poor example. Yamucha Kuririn and Ten saw each other on and off throughout most of there lives and could sense each others power fairly well.

Except Yamcha hadn't seen Tien for seven yrs, nor did Krillin, who commented on Tien possibly being gone forever. How long they've known/sensed each other doesn't mean a thing. If Gohan couldn't find Tien's Chi, I'm pretty sure Yamcha didn't.

[MR.Mark]

It doesn't. But we do know Krillin retired from fighting while Tenshinhan continued to train.

Retiring from fighting and retiring from training are two different things.

Vegeta: "I'll never fight again!"

Except Yamcha hadn't seen Tenshinhan for seven yrs, nor did Krillin, who commented on Tenshinhan possibly being gone forever. How long they've known/sensed each other doesn't mean a thing. If Gohan couldn't find Tenshinhan's Chi, I'm pretty sure Yamcha didn't.

But they did sense Ten BEFORE those seven years, which suggests to me that Kuririn was stronger even during the Cell arc. I see no evidence Ten did anything significant living as a nomad with his little china doll friend to surpass Kuririn, who had the T-X to spar with.

Personally, I don't care who's stronger, since both don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Me neither, I care about the story the most, not fan speculation in defense of characters they favor over others.

[Rocketman]

Except receive harder training than Goku did, which has to count for something. And considering Piccolo grew powerful enough to snatch Nail's attention in a mere six days, 200+ would be very beneficial. We don't know what he gained from Kaio's training, but to say he gained nothing isn't nice.

Piccolo is from a race stronger than the Saiyans.

[rereboy]

In my opinion, Toriyama, when he made Yamcha say that line, momentarily forgot that he hadn`t introduced Tenshinhan as a alien descendant in the actual manga, only in his thought up backstory for Tenshinhan which he didn`t actually use.

Therefore, and keeping that in mind, Yamcha`s line "among humans" about krillin makes perfect sense.

Krillin would never succeed in holding 2nd form Cell down with his attacks, so its clear that Tenshinhan is stronger.

[MR.Mark]

Krillin would never succeed in holding 2nd form Cell down with his attacks, so its clear that Tenshinhan is stronger.

Actually, that just proves that the Kikoho is one hell of a attack that often times can be suicidal in use.