The video quality of Dragon Box spoil anyone else?

[jjgp1112]

Even grain is something that isn't "originally intended" to be there. It's just there because, well...it's there. They can't do anything about it without making it look worse. In theory, DBZ "as it was originally intended" would be how it looked like on the cels.

[TonyTheTiger]

Not really. That's exactly my point. What they painted on the cels is one thing. What they may have expected a viewer to see over broadcast television may be something else. We don't really know for sure what they intended. We just know what we have and how that compares with everything else on the market and how it compares with the memories we have of the show from years back.

[Cipher]

It's obvious that we like things to look good.

I think it all comes down to this. For some people, there'll be a preference for film grain and other age-revealing marks simply on principle. And that's fine.

But for the vast majority of consumers, it's simply about what looks better. Grain can be distracting, and like pops on a vinyl record, it's a result of technical limitations rather than any creator intent. If that's not your thing, it's up to you to decide whether or not softening that grain is worth the other problems (blurred details, etc). In cases where it's done competently, the steel-book releases vs Dragon Box: The Movies for example, I think you have room for debate. I wouldn't begrudge anyone preferring one over the other in that case.

It's only in cases where one process has been incompetently done and actually hindered the image that the other is the clear winner. The DVNR on the Z season sets simply doesn't look good. The Dragon Boxes do. No discussion of details with grain or blurriness with clarity required.

[TonyTheTiger]

The issue is that the nature of the creation at the time of it's creation imparts a certain personality. Cartoons today don't look like cartoons from the late 80s. That's not a knock against either modern or old cartoons. It's just how it is. You don't have to watch for very long to give an approximate year of production just based on the visual differences between actual paint and digital paint. Dragon Ball Kai is a perfect example of how different modern animation can be. It's not really possible to "modernize" something without sacrificing that personality, even if the end result looks good.

Hell, we might be able to find somebody "hardcore" enough to think the Dragon Boxes are missing something and who actually wants the dirt and original framing prior to the remastering process.

I don't think it's a zero sum game. I think it's perfectly possible to like multiple versions of the same thing differently but equally. If they turned around and completely reanimated the series to look like the Kai intro I'd probably love it but I wouldn't see it as a "replacement" so to speak.

[Kendamu]

Batman:TAS was supposed to be imitating he Fleischer Superman cartoons, though. The accidental dirt and such added some character to Batman that made the 1940s-ness of it seem that much more authentic even if by accident. It's a rare occurrence where it actually made the show better.

Dragonball has nothing to gain from looking dirty.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Gaffer Tape]

Even grain is something that isn't "originally intended" to be there. It's just there because, well...it's there. They can't do anything about it without making it look worse. In theory, DBZ "as it was originally intended" would be how it looked like on the cels.

Not really. When the Sleeping Beauty Blu-ray came out a couple of years ago, it got quite a lot of flack for being "true to the cels." You know why? Because the animators never intended it to be true to the cels. They were aware of how the final product would look after being put to film and colored accordingly, making the colors brighter than they wanted them to be because they knew it would end up looking more subdued afterwards. So when a bunch of restorationists 50 years later decided the best thing to do would be to go back to the cels and color correct it to that, they were actually screwing it up.

As for film, yes, grain is inherently part of film, but there are a wide variety of film stocks with different levels of visible grain. Some are so fine you'd never be able to notice them. Others are much more coarse. And DPs choose what they feel is proper for the production. So, yeah, you usually are seeing exactly what they wanted you to see. And remember that not even the best HD digital video has the level of resolution that 35 mm film does.

It's a shame that Mike and TonytheTiger have been all over this thread before me because I pretty much agree with everything they've said. I want all my animation goofs and to see things the way there were originally produced, warts and all. I don't think "original intention" gives any kind of special privilege to go back and change things after the fact.

[TonyTheTiger]

Exactly. When people show off screencaps from the Dragon Boxes the message is never "See? This is how it was supposed to look!" The message is, "This looks awesome!" Or at least, "This looks better than anything else currently available." Practically speaking, it's going to be hard to get something that looks better. But it's also going to be hard to get something "more authentic" since we really don't know what the artists wanted us to see at the time.

I'm sort of arguing two things. First, that we don't really know whether or not the Dragon Boxes are really "how the show is meant to be seen." We just know it's the best way to watch the show as of today. Second, regardless of how something was originally intended to look, it's better to keep it "crappy" than screw it up through shitty remastering.

Here's a weird example. It's not quite the same situation but it goes along with the "keeping mistakes/flaws can be good" thing. Captain N has this episode called How's Bayou? that when originally aired it was missing backgrounds and had a few other weird things going on. NBC or DiC subsequently fixed the episode in later airings. That didn't stop people from wanting the original version. Ironically enough, the original version ended up on the DVDs but the fixed version did not. It doesn't really matter what the creators intended. What matters is that there are two versions of the episode so people want both.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

I don't know if this can help but Yu Yu Hakusho which I know it was released after Dragon Ball, got a Blu-Ray released which used the same footage as the original series but have been remastered and probably damage frames have been fixed I believe unlike Kai
Here's the Blu-Ray Opening!

[jjgp1112]

I don't know if this can help but Yu Yu Hakusho which I know it was released after Dragon Ball, got a Blu-Ray released which used the same footage as the original series but have been remastered and probably damage frames have been fixed I believe unlike Kai
Here's the Blu-Ray Opening!

Holy fuck, that looks amazing in YT 1080p. Funi needs to release these here, even if it'd be pointless.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

I don't know if this can help but Yu Yu Hakusho which I know it was released after Dragon Ball, got a Blu-Ray released which used the same footage as the original series but have been remastered and probably damage frames have been fixed I believe unlike Kai
Here's the Blu-Ray Opening!

Holy fuck, that looks amazing in YT 1080p. Funi needs to release these here, even if it'd be pointless.

The first set cost $420 ($250 on Amazon Japan!) the rest of the sets cost $520! but can be found cheaper on Amazon Japan, there's only 3 sets!
Here's the Japanese Blu-Ray Opening!

[TonyTheTiger]

Funi needs to release these here, even if it'd be pointless.

Why would it be pointless?

It also looks like they used some DVNR though subtle enough so that it doesn't look like shit.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

Funi needs to release these here, even if it'd be pointless.

Why would it be pointless?

Because they already release the series on DVD.

[TonyTheTiger]

Funi needs to release these here, even if it'd be pointless.

Why would it be pointless?

Because they already release the series on DVD.

You can't be serious...

[Goku100xKamehameha]

ANYWAY just look at how clear that old Anime on Blu-Ray! why Dragon Ball can't get the same treatment as that? after all Dragon Ball does more popular than YYH!

[Innagadadavida]

Dragon Ball has received a Blu-Ray release. Dragon Ball Z Kai.

Plus, isn't YuYu Hakusho shorter and newer? Dragon Ball was a huge show, and the production team probably had a lot of scraps to get rid of when any given episode was finished. It's very possible and has been brought up before that Toei may not have kept the best of the best resources after finishing episodes of Dragon Ball. Too much space, too expensive... Kei17 posted some interesting topics on the issue:

Accuracy of Dragon Box Colors
Better Audio on TV Run
35mm Film Masters for DBZ Episodes 73-80

I'm serious about those 35mm Negative film masters for those episodes. Check them out on your Dragon Boxes... Compare them to episode 72 and 81. The difference in clarity, crispness, and jitter-free-ness is astounding. If I could post some screencaps, I would. Anyway, with shorter shows like YuYu Hakusho, they may have had the capabilities to keep better quality footage. It may be possible that Dragon Ball Z can never look that good in High Def.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

The only Dragon Ball show that has the biggest supported footage to be transfer to Blu-Ray and looks fantastic is Dragon Ball GT!

Dragon Ball has received a Blu-Ray release. Dragon Ball Z Kai.

I meant the old Dragon Ball Z with filler and everything.

isn't YuYu Hakusho shorter and newer?

The series was started at 94!

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Funi needs to release these here, even if it'd be pointless.

Why would it be pointless?

Because they already release the series on DVD.

So? The quality of Blu-Rays is superior to the quality of DVDs. Nerds will want their favourite cartoons shows looking as good as possible. C'mon FUNi, DBZ and Yū Yū Hakusho for Blu-Ray!

[Goku100xKamehameha]

So? The quality of Blu-Rays is superior to the quality of DVDs. Nerds will want their favourite cartoons shows looking as good as possible. C'mon FUNi, DBZ and Yū Yū Hakusho for Blu-Ray!

What about Naruto, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Slam Dunk and etc?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

So? The quality of Blu-Rays is superior to the quality of DVDs. Nerds will want their favourite cartoons shows looking as good as possible. C'mon FUNi, DBZ and Yū Yū Hakusho for Blu-Ray!

What about Naruto, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Slam Dunk and etc?

Eh, I'm not really fussed about Naruto and Yu-Gi-Oh!, since they're relatively new shows. I know next to nothing about Slam Dunk, though.