What About Raditzu, ToeI? And...Low-class fighter my foot!

[Jerseymilk]

My comment about the blondness of a Saiyajin was just meant to show how carelessly done those flashback scenes were. That it's hard to use those as evidence for a theory because they're so convulted. It wasn't meant to undermine your comments SonGohan-san.

[laserkid]

Easy guys, easy, nothing wrong with a little fan discussion ^_^;

As for me, I'd say Raditz just wasnt important to the story, Goku gets to die and be reborn again, I thiunkn thats a bit of TMI syndrome here. Raditz was meerly unimportant in the scheme that Goku was in Bardocks form. GOKU is the one who will confront Freeza, not Raditz.

As for how Raditz knew where Goku was? He probably read the iteniary when he himself left and saw his brother heading to Earth, he paid it little mind for a long time, it was only when they needed extra manpower that he actually recalled this info "OH YEAH! I saw my little bro went to go kill weak earthlings, I'll go get him!"

So yeah, I see your point but thats my answer ^^;

[omae no kaasan]

When I read it I was quite literally rolling on the floor laughing my ass off. That and his "I would flip the pages and just find out I made these surprising things." comment in the Son Gokuu guide are just great. Totally blasted away years of hard-core fanboys trying to shove their theories about the story down the throats of others. It was a great day.

[Jerseymilk]

That reminds me of when a girl I knew who worked at the comic store I frequent asked me if it was true that Toriyama created the Red Ribbon Army as a political comment on the Chinese Communist Army, because some guy told her Toriyama himself actually told him that. I thought it was so hilarious, I sent it in to VegettoEX's "Ask VegettoEX" section just to hear his thoughts on it. She wanted to know if it was true because she was looking for a reason to recommend the series to people who might not be ordinarily interested and thought a deep idea like this would spark their interest! Crazy eh? She didn't even think to ask the guy what drugs he was on! Toriyama using Dragonball to make political commentaries! It's just too funny!!

[SonGohan-san]

Yeah, I know he's not the most important character, that Raditzu guy. I'm just saying it would have been "neat" to see him, like in the sense it was neat to see Nappa with hair.
Dodoria was in the movie. He's not particularly important. Nor is Zaabon much more important. But I still enjoyed seeing them. My rant wasn't that "Raditzu is so important that he should have been shown in the Bardock Special." I'm quite aware that the movie functions just fine without him. As I said, I loved the movie a great deal.

[VegettoEX]

When I read it I was quite literally rolling on the floor laughing my ass off. That and his "I would flip the pages and just find out I made these surprising things." comment in the Son Gokuu guide are just great. Totally blasted away years of hard-core fanboys trying to shove their theories about the story down the throats of others. It was a great day.

I just pictured Toriyama as Steve Urkel yelping "Did I do thaaaaat?"...

... and I cried.

[PsyLiam]

The trick in these cases is finding the fine line between "fun discussion" and "crazy obsessiveness". I have no problem with trying to reason out certain idiosycracies in the series (such as the time line thing, because I'm as hell Toriyama hadn't neatly worked them all out with diagrams and stuff), but I'm also willing to say that, in certain situations, Toriyama/TOEI fucked up (such as the whole Dr Frappe thing).

This occurs everywhere. You can get fun Star Trek discussions on, say, why Data was never promoted. You can get extremely anal and pathetic ones debating exactly how many warp cores an Akira-class starship has.

It's all a matter of balance. We just have to remember two things. One, keep it fun. Two, it's spelled "Brattain", damnit.

[Deus ex Machina]

You make some good points that I'd love to respond to.

One, they never acknowledge Raditzu's existence.

I completly agree with you on this, 100%. It's sad really, Raditz had awesome potential as a character in DBZ. After all, he's Goku's older brother and just an all around cool villian. It's a shame that Toriyama just kind of left him behind like that.

Toei got itself into a bif plot-hole with their filler material concerning Raditz and Goku's departure. During the first episode Raditz has an anime only flash back of putting Goku in his space pod as a baby, but in the Bardock Special he's nowhere to be seen.

Next thing: Bardock's powerlevel. No matter what anybody says I'll never be convinced his powerlevel is near 10,000.

I gave this one some thought myself, and I disagree with your theory that Bardocks quoted '10,000' PL as being figurative or exhaggerated. I already gave my thoughts on this in another thread, so I'll copy it again:

"A Saiyans rank is probably assigned at birth, depending on PL and increase expectations. You can tell by Vegeta that class was a big deal to Saiyans, so it probably wasn't something that could be changed once assigned, no matter how strong they became later.

The reasoning behind this, is that High ranking Saiyans would give birth to more high ranking saiyans. Even the weakest Saiyan could dramatically increase their PL through training, fighting, and recovering from mortal injuries. However, their offspring would begin as low-power saiyans like they were. This is really likely, Vegeta never passes up an opurtunity to remind everyone that he comes from a long line of Vegetas, even Nappa was a bit of a snob."

What I'd like to add to this, is that Bardock probably wasn't always this strong. When you watch it, Dodoria and Zarbon talk about a band of ;low-level Saiyans' who were taking on difficult missions. It's possible that Bardock had managed to build up this amount of power very quickly, so it might go unnoticed.

[Alias]

I'm with SonGohan on this one. What does it matter what Toriyama thinks of the series now? So what if he's forgotten most of it? I wrote a DB fanfic a few years ago, about the length of a 400 page novel. It took a year to write it, and I had a great deal of readers who loved it. Five minutes after finishing it, I hated it. I began to see every tiny flaw, mistake, and imperfection. The story became crude in my eyes. There's a few things in it I like, and the concept was good, but I don't even read it anymore. I even took it down from where I posted it so I could rewrite it. There's lots for writers and artists who are regarded as great who hated their works (I'm not saying I'm great, just for the record). But someone's opinions and likes shouldn't be based on the author's.

I love DragonBall. Yes, I know that Toriyama was just grabbing stuff from the top of his head, yes, I know there's lots of plot holes, I know all the little details. I wouldn't particularly care if Toriyama got up and stated that the whole story came from sticking a pen in his dog's paw. The result was still the same fun, dramatic, and lovable series. I love 'filler' because regardless of the plot holes it creates, it gives more explanation, character interaction, character development, etc... Besides, the anime isn't the same exact thing as the manga, so the anime doesn't have to strictly abide by what Toriyama created. I enjoy speculating about this and that, writing fanfics, reading gag Doujinshi, drawing Chibi Piccolos, debating why Freeza let Vegeta live, and filling the plot holes with my own theories. It's fun. I expand the characters and series in my own mind. Even if Toriyama doesn't care, doesn't mean I can't.

As for Raditz... I would've liked to see more of him too, it's a shame he was ignored. The reason he wasn't in the visions... Maybe his future wasn't deemed important for whatever reason. Bardock may have not had a friendly relationship with his oldest son and thus not cared if he lived or died. While Goku was weak at birth, his future was more significant. Raditz was doomed to join his father, Goku wasn't. Maybe the whole 'cosmic role' thing came into play. Goku had a major effect on the future of the universe, Raditz ended up as dust. (I like to think that Bulma keeps his body in a big glass tube in hopes of cloning an army. ^_^)

[tablet the eunuch]

Raditzu

Bardock

Raditzu

Why aren't you saying "Ba-daku (however the romanisation goes)" in, if you're going to do "raditzu"? Kinda doesn't make sense...


Also. Plot Holes. Whinge, and bitch, and whinge, and bitch bitch bitch.

I wrote a DB fanfic a few years ago, about the length of a 400 page novel.

I hate you internet.

and for fucks sake people, LIGHTEN UP!!!

[Zackarotto]

I'd really like to see this Oda - Toriyama interview you guys keep talking about.

[tablet the eunuch]

I want to See Dr Slump and Mr. Satan have an argument. :PATRIOT:

[Meri]

I'd really like to see this Oda - Toriyama interview you guys keep talking about.

Behold the greatness that is the Oda/Toriyama interview!

http://www.ultimatedbzinfo.com/odainterview.html

[omae no kaasan]

Hey I remember that. This one may be easier on your eyes though.

http://www.thegrandline.com/odainterview.html

People may think I'm not being light-hearted but honestly, I am not the one calling out the name of our Lord and Saviour because of a cartoon. Nor am I implying that anyone else is being nasty. This is just how I discuss stuff with a dry sense of humor so kindly don't take it personally. I'm not out to be a dick so don't take it that way. Please.

[Zackarotto]

Hey, thanks to the both of you. Really interesting to read that...

Really!? (beaming) I-I'm so glad!!

Haha, that made me laugh out loud. Good stuff, and it gives me a perfect idea of how much Oda idolizes Toriyama. Thanks again for showing me that...

[Dai]

Well, if anything this topic made it clear to me omae no kaasan is Greg Werner. I wouldn't say 'clear', but people calling him 'Greg' and the fact he translated the Oda/Toriyama interview kinda narrows it down to... Er, one. So if I'm right, hello Greg! And update the hell your site! It's been five months now...?

If I'm wrong, kill me using this ridiculously huge sword.

And now for serious discussion! Picking at plotholes in DB, analyzing characters and morals, and discussing whether or not Vegeta went SSJ2 before he went Majin, is all utterly useless crap talk. Hell, none of those things were given even the slightest bit of thought during DB's creation, so why should we?

Because it's fun to do. It's nerdy. Stupid. Useless. But fun to do. That's all the arguments I can give to as for why I participate in discussions like it. So there.

The End. Use this knowledge wisely, or die.

[PsyLiam]

Christ, I'd better die then.

Curse you.

[SonGohan-san]

omae no kaasan, I don't know if you were trying to stay anonymous for a reason and if you were, I apologize. But I overlooked VegettoEX's comment earlier that Dai caught, not to mention the other clues that didn't get through my dense skull.

Anyways, the point of me perpetuating this thread was just thank you for the hard work you have put into your site over the years. Quite frankly, you were my "go-to" guy (sorry Vegetto EX). I enjoyed your site the same way you described enjoying Kaioushin's. When I became a fan back in '98 (ok, so I'm not an old school guy, but I wasn't necessarily a Johnny Come-Lately, either) you were the one that got me into the fansubs and "real" Dragon Ball. I think I had read just about every word you had on your site at one point. Ironically, I probably started thinking of the series this obsessively because of the critical thinking over the series that you at times demonstrated on your site. I never sent you an email or anything (as I'm sure you got enough of them), so I really just wanted to thank you now for everything. And, please keep that site up in capacity at all costs. Each time I (and I'm sure countless others) visit there, it's a pleasant trip down memory lane.

Since my first DB craze I have gotten "in" and "out" of the show repeatedly. I guess the only reason my interest in the show resurfaced this past month was 1. cartoon is airing the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, the only DB-related episodes I haven't seen and 2. This site. (I know this sorta belongs in the introduction forum.)

And about the "Jesus" comment. I didn't mean to offend anybody with that, or for it to even be a huge deal. It was an incredulous toned "Jesus" in context, not an angry one. I just hate those lame emotion-faces, and didn't want to say anything that sounded too nasty, and that's what came into my head first. I really didn't pay any mind to it. Sorry if seemed absurd, insensitive, etc.

Also, I'm thinking of reading One Piece eventually. Why? Because you spoke so highly of it. I really do value your opinion greatly and hope things have been working out for you, omae. Thanks again.

If I'm wrong about this, I guess I join Dai in feeling quite stupid...

[Dai]

Hell, there's a 95 percent chance everything I say is total bull, so I wouldn't rely on my words too much.

[Dayspring]

I feel like I'm necro-posting since we've gone so far off the original topic so many posts ago.

Anyhoo: I also would have loved to see a QUICK Radditz bit in the Bardock saga. Even if it was just a dorky mentioning in the conversation w/Vegeta and Nappa at the end. Even cheesy like this:

Nappa: "Vegeta! Planet Vegeta's been destroyed by a comet! [insert whatever Vegeta answers] I found some Low Level brat but other than he, you and I, Freeza's reports say all Saiyans were present on the planet when it exploded!"

As for Bardock's PL, plothole IMHO. ^_^
I like to think of Bardock as having the 10,000 when he's charged up and fighting at the end. Since the average Low Level Warrior by Freeza goon standards is 1,200-1,500, and average Low Level Saiyan as 1,200, I like to imagine Bardock's clan as being in the 1,000 (or less but I so hate imagining Saiyans weaker than 1,000) to 1,200 range, Dodoria's goons in the 1,200-1,500 range, and Bardock versus Dodoria+co at 1,500.

My thoughts are since Bardock would always be wounded at 1,500 over and over throughout his life, the doctor calculated the Saiyan healing attribute should have increased his PL to about 10,000 but for some reason"didn't". Surprise! Bardock can increase his PL at will! 10,000 against tons of 1,200 to 1,500 goons! BUWAHAHAHAHA!!! He's a genious warrior stronger than even the upper elitistis, Nappa! MEHEHEHEHE!

Fan-boyism: 1
TOEI: 0