Goku a Superhero?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Of course. He fights to protect the Earth from evil villains. That's definately a superhero in my book.

[caejones]

Analysis time~!

Goku saves people when he happens to be around and they're in trouble.
The first arc, prior to the 21st tournament, Goku is saving the day left and right.
Well, until he turnsintoagiantgorillaandnearlykillseveryone, but that was an accident.

There are plenty of petty crimes in the dragonworld. We see them every time a character goes to the city for the first time. And every time, they put a stop to it. They didn't plan on it, but they just happened to be in the neighborhood...

Goku was all about protecting those monkeys that Silver and his men were abusing.
And even though he was kinda in it for the dragonball, he was also dealing with Muscle Tower with the best for Jingle village in mind.

He made Bulma and Krillin save a mouse from the pirate cave. Instead of eating it... but I guess he did just eat a squid before that. XD

He continued his DB quest after getting the ball that he wanted in order to wish back Bora.

The tournaments and Piccolo were all personal, so I'd certainly not count those toward SUPERHERO! Goku.

So, question. After Goku crippled Nappa, did he tell Vegeta to take him and leave the Earth? I wouldn't say that's superheroish, I guess... but it's an instance of him choosing fairness over a fight. He does it again with the Ginyu Force, and even Freeza. Aside from those instances, though, I wouldn't count anything in the "Space Empire" arc to be particularly super hero-like.

Gero's Creations? Goku is developing his "Eh, forget the world. Let's fight!" mindset. There are some exceptions here, though. For one, with Gero... there is the point that it'd be unfair to attack someone when he hasn't committed the crime yet. Goku also tried to keep #19 and #20 away from populated areas to protect bystanders. And his staying dead had a heroic vibe to it. "A lot of villains lately have been after me, so I'll just stay dead to keep them away."

Buu? Not at all.

So yeah. I'd say Goku was something of an opportunist super hero when he was younger, but as the series progressed, he became decreasingly heroic. To the extent that it seemed like he was trying not to care unless he really had to.

... And on that note, I just realized that I need to watch the Buu Saga again...

[Ahiru77]

Can't top that.

The Great Saiyaman is a superhero. Goku's just a regular hero; if there's a really strong guy trying to destroy the Earth, he's gonna stop them, but he doesn't go out into the city fighting crime every day or anything like that. That's more Gohan's thing.

Saiyaman....there ya go. Superhero to the core and I almost forgot about him.

In my opinion, Goku isn't a superhero by comic book standards. But he does save people with the help of super powers and is a rollmodel to kids so...

[TonyTheTiger]

The popular definition of 'superhero' in the thread seems to focus on the archetypical Silver Age Superman-esque character. There are a lot of characters within superhero comic books, though, that don't fit one or more of those qualities. The aforementioned Wolverine, Luke Cage, Etrigan, Blade, The Punisher, etc.

And, yeah, while Goku is usually mostly interested in just fighting stronger opponents, he does have a pretty strong moral compass. Arguably moreso than a lot of characters from Marvel and DC. He may not be as proactive where he goes out looking for trouble but I don't think we've ever seen Goku ignore people in danger if he's in a position to help.

[rereboy]

Superheroes are fairly proactive. They patrol.

Goku? Fifty nine million murders could occur in the world that day and six nuclear wars could pass and Goku wouldn't give two damns unless it interrupted his training.

I don't think that's a fair accusation against Goku, though. It's true that Gohan more closely matches the traditional superhero archetype but the world they live in is pretty utopian. Goku isn't going to go patrolling for murders because there wouldn't be murders, at least not by ordinary people. Outside of a handful of relatively petty criminals, often painted in a somewhat goofy light, the only real evil done in the world has been from major supervillains.

The Dragon Ball universe never struck me as a place where murders and rapes are remotely common. And there doesn't seem to be a moral gray in the universe, either. Good guys are good and bad guys are bad. It's a world where power doesn't corrupt and many former bad guys eventually become good. There's also the whole "death isn't really a big deal" part, too.

I think if we cut and paste Goku into a world that more closely matches the DC or Marvel universes he'd be pretty altruistic.

Maybe you should be reminded of what happened when Piccolo Daimao took control and said that crime would no longer be fought and consider illegal (especially in the anime).

Or maybe be reminded that Oolong kidnapped girls, or that Chichi`s father killed anyone who tried to get his treasure before Roshi put out the fire in his mountain, or that Yamcha and Lunch stole many things, or about the two guys who shot Mr Satan and his dog, or that the evil side of the Son of Kattaz originated from seeing and witnessing the evil that existed on Earth, etc etc.

There is plenty of evil in Dragon world besides the main villains.

[TonyTheTiger]

Most of that barely qualifies because, like I said, it's obvious. Criminal behavior in the world seems to be black and white, cut and dry. A bad guy is a bad guy...as the plot requires. And a shit load of bad guys Goku meets end up becoming good. It certainly makes reform seem a bit more likely in the Dragon Ball universe, doesn't it? Wouldn't using Oolong and Yamcha as examples then actually support my point that crime is not a particularly serious issue? It's apparently not too hard to reform people, at least.

Those guys who shot Buu's dog? They're caricatures. They show up to do something bad and then that's the end of it. They're one off events to move the story forward. There doesn't seem to be a pervasive crime problem within the universe itself. Most of the citizens in the world are human and yet there are very few human villains in Dragon Ball. Most of the people the heroes face off against are superhuman in some way and don't really have much of a life within society. Just look at my examples. I'll ask again because nobody addressed it:

Can you really imagine Bulma and Vegeta sitting at home and hear the next door neighbors arguing and all of a sudden there's a domestic violence incident? Or one of Gohan's classmates getting drunk at a party and raping a passed out girl in the bedroom?

Can you really imagine that happening in the Dragon Ball world? Most real world criminals are not criminals all the time. There are subtleties. That's why you have the whole "But he seemed like such a normal guy..." That kind of crime, you know, the vast majority of it, doesn't seem to fit within the universe. What we get instead are a handful of guys who's only job is to "be bad" as a plot point, and cartoonishly so, most often.

Just look at every major plot point. Cell attacks and the entire world seems to stop cold. Everybody is frightened and running for cover but there's no looting, there's no violence as a result of the panic. It's all Cell. That's a far cry from X-Men where the public generally plays a part in what's wrong with the world.

[rereboy]

Can you really imagine Bulma and Vegeta sitting at home and hear the next door neighbors arguing and all of a sudden there's a domestic violence incident? Or one of Gohan's classmates getting drunk at a party and raping a passed out girl in the bedroom?

Can you really imagine that happening in the Dragon Ball world? Most real world criminals are not criminals all the time. There are subtleties. That's why you have the whole "But he seemed like such a normal guy..." That kind of crime, you know, the vast majority of it, doesn't seem to fit within the universe. What we get instead are a handful of guys who's only job is to "be bad" as a plot point, and cartoonishly so, most often.

Just because its not shown, it doesn`t mean it doesn`t exist. The story implies that there is a great deal of evil in that world (and that includes every form of evil you can think of).

The story just happens to not dwell on it because:
a) thats is not the purpose of the story (to dwell on common rapes and murders, etc, and the state of mind or humanity of those who do it)
b) the story only follows Goku and his friends and their lives. And, of course, if they flat out see someone trying to do something bad, they will stop it because they are good guys and have a great deal of power (like Goku did in the earliest arcs and like Gohan did with his Sayaman persona. The only difference is that Gohan cared enough to actively sought out the criminals because he knew they existed and that people do evil things everyday).

But, like I said, its implied in the story that there is great evil in Dragon world, which includes every type of evil we can think up (including muder, rape, etc). Enough evil to even corrupt the Son of Kattaz.

[TonyTheTiger]

If it's not the focus of the story (which of course I'm not arguing) then what's the point of analyzing whether or not Goku is a superhero using Superman as a measuring stick where in that case it often is the focus of the story? If we're going to ask whether Goku is a superhero we have to use the reality and context of the world he lives in. It doesn't make sense to say he's not a superhero because he doesn't fight crime. If he were in a world where crime were the focus then he'd probably fight it. But he's not...so he doesn't.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Can you really imagine Bulma and Vegeta sitting at home and hear the next door neighbors arguing and all of a sudden there's a domestic violence incident? Or one of Gohan's classmates getting drunk at a party and raping a passed out girl in the bedroom?

Can you really imagine that happening in the Dragon Ball world? Most real world criminals are not criminals all the time. There are subtleties. That's why you have the whole "But he seemed like such a normal guy..." That kind of crime, you know, the vast majority of it, doesn't seem to fit within the universe. What we get instead are a handful of guys who's only job is to "be bad" as a plot point, and cartoonishly so, most often.

Just because its not shown, it doesn`t mean it doesn`t exist. The story implies that there is a great deal of evil in that world (and that includes every form of evil you can think of).

The story just happens to not dwell on it because:
a) thats is not the purpose of the story (to dwell on common rapes and murders, etc, and the state of mind or humanity of those who do it)
b) the story only follows Goku and his friends and their lives. And, of course, if they flat out see someone trying to do something bad, they will stop it because they are good guys and have a great deal of power (like Goku did in the earliest arcs and like Gohan did with his Sayaman persona. The only difference is that Gohan cared enough to actively sought out the criminals because he knew they existed and that people do evil things everyday).

But, like I said, its implied in the story that there is great evil in Dragon world, which includes every type of evil we can think up (including muder, rape, etc). Enough evil to even corrupt the Son of Kattaz.

Yeah, there's definitely crime in the Dragon World, Dragon Ball just doesn't focus on what criminals get up to. Remember when Gohan was going to High School, and there were robbers? And someone's already mentioned the RRA guys who were trying to rape Bulma. And in the Boo arc, there were those two guys who were killing people just for the fun of it. And Taopaipai is an assassin, who kills people for money. People shouldn't try to tell me there isn't crime in Dragon Ball, when it's in the damn story.

[rereboy]

If it's not the focus of the story (which of course I'm not arguing) then what's the point of analyzing whether or not Goku is a superhero using Superman as a measuring stick where in that case it often is the focus of the story? If we're going to ask whether Goku is a superhero we have to use the reality and context of the world he lives in. It doesn't make sense to say he's not a superhero because he doesn't fight crime. If he were in a world where crime were the focus then he'd probably fight it. But he's not...so he doesn't.

I wasn`t arguing whether Goku is a superhero or not. I was simply saying that the Dragon World is far from an utopia. Its a weird world but it does have great evil in it, of all kinds. Or, at least, it had until everyone was brought back to life except the bad guys. Maybe then it became an utopia.

As such, and in the topic of whether Goku is a superhero or not, I don`t think he is. He is a good guy and a hero who saved lots of lives, but his motives are more selfish than anything else and his ultimate goal is not to enforce justice and goodness. Just because he is a hero and he has superpowers, it doesn`t mean he is automatically a superhero, just like somebody without powers can be a superhero (Batman). I`m sure that Goku, with his powers and in time of peace, could have done more for the planet than he did.

[Savage68]

Not all superheros are out patrolling the streets. Hulk, Wolverine, Silver Surfer, most of the Excalibur series, etc.

Those guys are either anti-heroes, or they're generally impartial to "right or wrong," and tend to lean on the right's side. But they aren't inherently "good guys."

[TonyTheTiger]

If it's not the focus of the story (which of course I'm not arguing) then what's the point of analyzing whether or not Goku is a superhero using Superman as a measuring stick where in that case it often is the focus of the story? If we're going to ask whether Goku is a superhero we have to use the reality and context of the world he lives in. It doesn't make sense to say he's not a superhero because he doesn't fight crime. If he were in a world where crime were the focus then he'd probably fight it. But he's not...so he doesn't.

I wasn`t arguing whether Goku is a superhero or not. I was simply saying that the Dragon World is far from an utopia. Its a weird world but it does have great evil in it, of all kinds. Or, at least, it had until everyone was brought back to life except the bad guys. Maybe then it became an utopia.

As such, and in the topic of whether Goku is a superhero or not, I don`t think he is. He is a good guy and a hero who saved lots of lives, but his motives are more selfish than anything else and his ultimate goal is not to enforce justice and goodness. Just because he is a hero and he has superpowers, it doesn`t mean he is automatically a superhero, just like somebody without powers can be a superhero (Batman). I`m sure that Goku, with his powers and in time of peace, could have done more for the planet than he did.

But you yourself have said that whatever evil may or may not be within the hearts of the common man aren't a part of the story. So how can you say Goku wouldn't deal with those things had they been focused on?

It's like saying Gohan as Saiyaman wasn't much of a hero because he wasn't pulling people out of burning buildings and only really did a handful of things while in costume. Well...when did the story ever put him in a position to do such a thing? It doesn't mean he wouldn't if that happened to be a plot point.

And if you want to talk about crime in general, I stand firm that the Dragon Ball world is quite utopian. It's a world where power doesn't corrupt. The only people who ever tried to use the Dragon Balls for evil purposes were evil people to begin with. In the real world, though? I'd bet a lot of otherwise ordinary people would suffer falls from grace.

[rereboy]

Since its implied to exist in their world, its part of the story and it does exist (since its implied). The story itself just happens to not dwell on it because thats not its purpose.

[TonyTheTiger]

Since its implied to exist in their world, its part of the story and it does exist (since its implied). The story itself just happens to not dwell on it because thats not its purpose.

If it's not its purpose than you can't hold it against Goku for not engaging it. He would if it were its purpose.

It's like asking why Yamcha doesn't vote. Presumably he would if voting were something remotely relevant to the plot. Now Goku? I can imagine Goku not voting for obvious reasons.

[rereboy]

That is the same thing as blaming Toriyama for everything that happens in the story and for every mistake the characters make (since he wrote it and chose what kind of story he wanted).

When we are analyzing a character, we have to treat him and his world are if they exist somewhere. And, as such, we can analyze Goku (as a character) and criticize for all his shortcomings.
The same way, we can also analyze and criticize his world. And his world is implied to have those evils and crimes so, they do exist in it, and we can criticize it for it, even if that is not the main focus of the story being told.

Its like Hannibal Lecter. Sure, he is a murderer simply because the story and the authors wanted him to be, but we can criticize him as a character for all his shortcomings, even those that the authors probably didn`t want us to focus on.

Or the society in the book 1984. We can criticize it for all it shortcomings, even those that the author probably didn`t want us to focus on.

Those little aspects that are not really meant to be focused on are not really important because thats not the point. But they are there. And we can discuss it. And criticize it. As long as we don`t forget that is not really the point of the story. We just shouldn`t give it too much importance.

[TonyTheTiger]

Fair enough but I actually am looking at the character, not what Toriyama wrote or didn't write. Goku's head may be overwhelmingly focused on fighting strong opponents but at the same time you can't deny he has a pretty strong moral compass. Again, Gohan would be more like the archetypical superhero, but Goku isn't exactly completely removed from the category.

Superman has a bit of a selfish streak, too. He has a tendency to try to run away from his problems. That's something to criticize him for. Batman can be Big Brother-ish and manipulative at times. But are they no longer superheroes?

[Super Sonic]

The popular definition of 'superhero' in the thread seems to focus on the archetypical Silver Age Superman-esque character. There are a lot of characters within superhero comic books, though, that don't fit one or more of those qualities. The aforementioned Wolverine, Luke Cage, Etrigan, Blade, The Punisher, etc.

And, yeah, while Goku is usually mostly interested in just fighting stronger opponents, he does have a pretty strong moral compass. Arguably moreso than a lot of characters from Marvel and DC. He may not be as proactive where he goes out looking for trouble but I don't think we've ever seen Goku ignore people in danger if he's in a position to help.

That was why I said in the beginning guys need to read Adams/O'Neil Batman or Marvel. And also what you mentioned on Goku not ignoring people in danger when he's in a position to help is rather similar to Toei's own Sentai line and their American counterparts.

[caejones]

One of the things about a lot of American super heros, and some sentai (especially the American adaptations), is that they have a sort of "mission" system.

Wolverine does his own thing very, very often. But he's also a member of a team that has leadership, specific goals, and gets dispatched to further those goals.
Batman... there's the bat signal.
Spider-Man makes super heroing his profession.
Heck, when the Jedi are an established order (so, not during the classic trilogy), they frequently go on missions, and the jedi that try to do their own things usually wind up in trouble. (This gets a bit less strict in the New Jedi Order, but it's still an organization with missions and such.)
The U.S. adaptations of super sentai into Power Rangers almost never have the rangers being independent "Oh, look, someone in trouble... guess I better do something" heroes. There's always central leadership that summons them when the need arises.

Dragonball?
We get this sort of thing in the Saiyan arc (Kami gathers the heroes), and with Gero's creations (Trunks gives warning, everyone prepares... though kinda selfishly). Kaioshin and Babidi's minions manipulate things a bit more with Buu... but... eh.
But Goku himself never gets this kind of thing, other than in the movies (See DBZ movie3, sorta-kinda movie4, and certainly movie6. And in the afterlife, in filler as well as movies 11 and 12, Goku and Paikuhan are basically law enforcement for Hell.).

I know a guy that once jumped out of his car in a busy, flooded intersection to rescue a kitten from traffic. I think he's more of a super hero than Goku, though, as people turn to him when cats and dogs need rescuing. Goku is a hero, make no mistake. Future Trunks definitely treats him as a super hero. Future Trunks and Gohan are probably super heros. Goku? In general, I'd say he's kinda right on the line.

Hmm.

'K. I think the problem here is a lack of a definition of Super Hero. *Wikis*

[Kaboom]

Goku doesn't actively try to be a "superhero." He just happens to fall into the role quite often regardless.

[TonyTheTiger]

There are a lot of different types of superheroes. You have the classic "truth, justice, and the American way" style (Superman), you have the loner style (Daredevil), the police force style (Green Lantern), etc. I guess what ties them all together is that they want to do what they do.

But what about guys like Vash the Stampede or Kenshin? They're both fairly reluctant participants but I wouldn't say they aren't superheroes just because they don't like to do what they do. They still step up when necessary.